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How Quirks Can Still Fail To Improve The Game

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#1 Oogalook

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:24 PM

Greetings, Mechwarriors. I'm an old I.S. pilot, and I still love all of my old-and-busted Inner Sphere 'mechs. For this reason, I've been massively excited for weeks about the coming Quirks pass.

But there's a nagging worry in my heart, like a chip of glass in my I.S. enchilada. Quirks will indeed close the power gap between IS and Clan 'mechs, but if it's done wrong, it has the potential to leave the I.S. 'mech selection more boring and less specialized than before.

Each chassis is designed to provide a different pilot experience, and each variant of each chassis is intended to give him different options in loadout. With a quirk pass, PGI is given a huge choice:

To flatly buff the defense and offence of each mech to converge on a uniform high damage, high defense paradigm, or to enhance its strengths and let its weaknesses be thereby justified in order to provide greater specialization.


If the first route stated above is selected, we'll see quirks become predictable, as only one approach will be taken to improve each 'mech to satisfactory levels. We've been given a glimpse by PGI of a few suggested improvements for the hunchback and the Locust 1V. In both cases we see:
1. A durability buff for the most-destroyed part of the 'mech (i.e. the right torso of the Hunchie and the legs and arms of the Locust).
2. A general weapon-type buff (i.e. ballistics on the Hunchie and energy on the Locust).
3. A specific weapon buff for whatever is expected to be the "optimal weapon" for the chassis (i.e. the AC20 for the Hunchie and the ERLL for the Locust).

This would fail to improve the game for two reasons:
First, a specific weapon buff would essentially mean that the 'mech would not perform optimally unless the player designed it around whatever weapon had been arbitrarily selected for the buff. With the Hunchback, all TT designs basically were centered around an AC20 in that torso, so in its case, this might be fine. On the other hand, the Locust 1V has 4 Ballistics hardpoints and only about 5 tons to spend on weaponry. As anybody could see, a Locust pilot who follows the suggestion of the quirk designers absolutely could not fit the 4 machine guns suggested by the 'mech designers onto the same 'mech. In this case, it is impossible for the player to make optimal use of the quirk assigned. In other words, a particular weapon buff would sometimes restrict viable load-out options, which is contrary to the spirit of the game.

Second, this pattern would be boring. If the same approach is taken in buffing each 'mech, then the player would still have to compare each 'mech based on the same, very limited factors: Damage output, ideal weapon (as selected by the quirk designers), and durability. In this situation, each 'mech is reduced to a system of three statistics, and players would basically be stuck picking whichever 'mech has the best quirks and the best optimal weapon load-out.

I say, the quirk pass is the perfect opportunity to uphold and finally perfect the core of the Mechwarrior game, which is the fact that every 'mech is viable for different reasons. This can be accomplished by enhancing each 'mech's best aspects to make each chassis uniquely capable of holding a certain, specialized role, while repairing only what drawbacks might cripple the 'mech's performance in this role.

Each 'mech is defined by something which no other 'mech has. The weaknesses (other than those which actually do cripple the 'mech's viability) are accepted, but the strengths are augmented.

Suppose instead of buffing the problem 'mechs until unrecognizable, they be given quirks to enhance their strongest points or, if needed, to establish strong points.

The locust, for example. Buffs of durability or weapon effecacy would have to get out of hand (in the 200% range) before it can compete with other light 'mechs. Why not give it unique sensor abilities, consistent with a more dedicated scout 'mech, and only solve the worst of its defensive problems, which is the vulnerability of the legs? I propose this:
+50% target info gathering speed
+50% sensor range
+25% turn rate
-50% fall and collision damage

Without directly improving armor or weapon strength, there would be a great reason to take this little 'mech onto the battlefield. The fall damage absorption would solve some of the leg damage problems which come with the lack of jump jets, and extra turn rate would help it throw off an attacker's aim.

Another problem 'mech: the dragon. With all its weapons in its arms, which are not only wide-set but also far below the cockpit, and its huge center torso, this thing is hard to use meaningfully. It is also one of the lightest possible heavy 'mechs. Its strengths? Basically none, except for a hair more speed with the same engine owing to its lower weight. I propose it be given buffs to improve its harassing abilities and to help its CT to survive:
+10% top speed
+33% acceleration and deceleration rate
+25% target info gathering speed
Side torso hit-boxes include the sides of the nose, leaving only the top and front faces as CT.

This would result in a quick, nimble 'mech with a talent for hitting weak spots and for dodging into and out of cover. The extension of the side torso hit-boxes would somewhat solve the problem presented by the 'mech's enormous nose by spreading damage. Suddenly the dragon would have a purpose as a quick harrasser.

Do you see the pattern? Without simply giving each 'mech a uniform buff to firepower or toughness, these two largely useless 'mechs can suddenly gain battlefield utility.

Certain other 'mechs would still benefit better from general buffs, simply because they are too varied in application to be pinned down in a role. An example is the vindicator: Neither very powerful nor very fast, it is intended to be a jack-of-all-trades which keeps pace with the team's heavier 'mechs. It is designed for the purpose, with a good mix of hardpoints, but it simply can't compete with a well-piloted specialist 'mech. General durability and weapon cooldown improvements would serve it as well as anything.
The only 'mech which comes to mind as a good candidate for the 3-part buff formula discussed earlier is the Hunchback, whose design is entirely centered around delivering an AC20 to the battlefield and bringing it wherever the team needs it. A specific quirk to improve the AC20, stacking with a general ballistics buff, would make this thing plenty destructive. Toughening the right torso would let it carry on fighting at full strength for longer.

If quirks are applied with the particular role of that individual 'mech as the foremost guide, the added variety of battlefield roles among I.S. chassis would benefit the I.S. factions greatly as well as keeping the pilots interested. Where the superior technology allows each Clan 'mech to handle almost any situation with confidence, the superior specialization of I.S. 'mechs would allow them to take advantage of their pilot's skills to a greater degree and thereby even the odds.

Do you agree? Please comment below.

Edited by Oogalook, 13 October 2014 - 03:31 PM.


#2 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:29 PM

I was under the impression that mech performance characteristics like you stated are being looked into as well as weapons/armour but i could be wrong.

I totally agree that mechs should have quirks related to thier role which might encompass many variables beyond weapons.

I thought Russ said that locusts for instance will be getting big buffs to accel and decel which would be great to allow them to pop in and out of cover and turn on a dime quicker etc.

#3 Burktross

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:40 PM

Yes, good show.
**Toasts wine glass.

#4 Artgathan

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:48 PM

Basically what you're suggesting is to replace their "arbitrary quirk system" with your own. There's nothing actually new in this suggestion.

#5 DocBach

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:53 PM

We'll have to wait and see exactly what we're going to get to see if it'll actually make a difference in the game, but I'd love to see quirks beyond weapons -- quirks inspired from the fluff from the old technical readouts. Stuff like targeting computers that are suppose to be better at tracking doing something similar to the modules we have in the game like target decay or longer sensor range or whatever.

It'd be cool to see the little fluff stuff that didn't really get rules to portray them in the game from the lore get put into life.

#6 Kiiyor

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:04 PM

View PostOogalook, on 13 October 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Greetings, Mechwarriors. I'm an old I.S. pilot, and I still love all of my old-and-busted Inner Sphere 'mechs. For this reason, I've been massively excited for weeks about the coming Quirks pass.

But there's a nagging worry in my heart, like a chip of glass in my I.S. enchilada. Quirks will indeed close the power gap between IS and Clan 'mechs, but if it's done wrong, it has the potential to leave the I.S. 'mech selection more boring and less specialized than before.

Each chassis is designed to provide a different pilot experience, and each variant of each chassis is intended to give him different options in loadout. With a quirk pass, PGI is given a huge choice:

To flatly buff the defense and offence of each mech to converge on a uniform high damage, high defense paradigm, or to enhance its strengths and let its weaknesses be thereby justified in order to provide greater specialization.


If the first route stated above is selected, we'll see quirks become predictable, as only one approach will be taken to improve each 'mech to satisfactory levels. We've been given a glimpse by PGI of a few suggested improvements for the hunchback and the Locust 1V. In both cases we see:
1. A durability buff for the most-destroyed part of the 'mech (i.e. the right torso of the Hunchie and the legs and arms of the Locust).
2. A general weapon-type buff (i.e. ballistics on the Hunchie and energy on the Locust).
3. A specific weapon buff for whatever is expected to be the "optimal weapon" for the chassis (i.e. the AC20 for the Hunchie and the ERLL for the Locust).

This would fail to improve the game for two reasons:
First, a specific weapon buff would essentially mean that the 'mech would not perform optimally unless the player designed it around whatever weapon had been arbitrarily selected for the buff. With the Hunchback, all TT designs basically were centered around an AC20 in that torso, so in its case, this might be fine. On the other hand, the Locust 1V has 4 Ballistics hardpoints and only about 5 tons to spend on weaponry. As anybody could see, a Locust pilot who follows the suggestion of the quirk designers absolutely could not fit the 4 machine guns suggested by the 'mech designers onto the same 'mech. In this case, it is impossible for the player to make optimal use of the quirk assigned. In other words, a particular weapon buff would sometimes restrict viable load-out options, which is contrary to the spirit of the game.

Second, this pattern would be boring. If the same approach is taken in buffing each 'mech, then the player would still have to compare each 'mech based on the same, very limited factors: Damage output, ideal weapon (as selected by the quirk designers), and durability. In this situation, each 'mech is reduced to a system of three statistics, and players would basically be stuck picking whichever 'mech has the best quirks and the best optimal weapon load-out.

I say, the quirk pass is the perfect opportunity to uphold and finally perfect the core of the Mechwarrior game, which is the fact that every 'mech is viable for different reasons. This can be accomplished by enhancing each 'mech's best aspects to make each chassis uniquely capable of holding a certain, specialized role, while repairing only what drawbacks might cripple the 'mech's performance in this role.

Each 'mech is defined by something which no other 'mech has. The weaknesses (other than those which actually do cripple the 'mech's viability) are accepted, but the strengths are augmented.

Suppose instead of buffing the problem 'mechs until unrecognizable, they be given quirks to enhance their strongest points or, if needed, to establish strong points.

The locust, for example. Buffs of durability or weapon effecacy would have to get out of hand (in the 200% range) before it can compete with other light 'mechs. Why not give it unique sensor abilities, consistent with a more dedicated scout 'mech, and only solve the worst of its defensive problems, which is the vulnerability of the legs? I propose this:
+50% target info gathering speed
+50% sensor range
+25% turn rate
-50% fall and collision damage

Without directly improving armor or weapon strength, there would be a great reason to take this little 'mech onto the battlefield. The fall damage absorption would solve some of the leg damage problems which come with the lack of jump jets, and extra turn rate would help it throw off an attacker's aim.

Another problem 'mech: the dragon. With all its weapons in its arms, which are not only wide-set but also far below the cockpit, and its huge center torso, this thing is hard to use meaningfully. It is also one of the lightest possible heavy 'mechs. Its strengths? Basically none, except for a hair more speed with the same engine owing to its lower weight. I propose it be given buffs to improve its harassing abilities and to help its CT to survive:
+10% top speed
+33% acceleration and deceleration rate
+25% target info gathering speed
Side torso hit-boxes include the sides of the nose, leaving only the top and front faces as CT.

This would result in a quick, nimble 'mech with a talent for hitting weak spots and for dodging into and out of cover. The extension of the side torso hit-boxes would somewhat solve the problem presented by the 'mech's enormous nose by spreading damage. Suddenly the dragon would have a purpose as a quick harrasser.

Do you see the pattern? Without simply giving each 'mech a uniform buff to firepower or toughness, these two largely useless 'mechs can suddenly gain battlefield utility.

Certain other 'mechs would still benefit better from general buffs, simply because they are too varied in application to be pinned down in a role. An example is the vindicator: Neither very powerful nor very fast, it is intended to be a jack-of-all-trades which keeps pace with the team's heavier 'mechs. It is designed for the purpose, with a good mix of hardpoints, but it simply can't compete with a well-piloted specialist 'mech. General durability and weapon cooldown improvements would serve it as well as anything.
The only 'mech which comes to mind as a good candidate for the 3-part buff formula discussed earlier is the Hunchback, whose design is entirely centered around delivering an AC20 to the battlefield and bringing it wherever the team needs it. A specific quirk to improve the AC20, stacking with a general ballistics buff, would make this thing plenty destructive. Toughening the right torso would let it carry on fighting at full strength for longer.

If quirks are applied with the particular role of that individual 'mech as the foremost guide, the added variety of battlefield roles among I.S. chassis would benefit the I.S. factions greatly as well as keeping the pilots interested. Where the superior technology allows each Clan 'mech to handle almost any situation with confidence, the superior specialization of I.S. 'mechs would allow them to take advantage of their pilot's skills to a greater degree and thereby even the odds.

Do you agree? Please comment below.


I do agree.

HOWEVER.

The thing people really need to keep in the back of their heads, is that some mechs... are just bad. Poor proportions, poor weapon hardpoints or low mounted weapons, and poor hitboxes. Quirks will alleviate some of the badness (see the Awesome - it is still sub-par, but is much, much better than it was) but there's only so much that can be done.

As a Sergeant once told me in exasperation while he was trying to teach me how to crochet (no, really); You can't make strawberry jam out of pig crap.

What the quirk pass WILL do, is make better IS mechs better, and will at the very least allow players with bad mechs a chance to be competitive.

#7 DarkonFullPower

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:04 PM

Do NOT lower the CT more then it already it. The Dragon is a XL-Safe mech for a reason. Making the ST bigger then they are will outright kill what survivability it has.

However I do agree with making the Dragon's buff be aimed at Hit-and-Run. Even with no weapon buffs, making a Dragon be even more crazy maneuverable then it already is would be most then enough for me.

We do not has to make every mech Tier 1. All we need to do it make every mech be fun in their own ways.

EDIT:

View PostKiiyor, on 13 October 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

What the quirk pass WILL do, is make better IS mechs better, and will at the very least allow players with bad mechs a chance to be competitive.


Case and point, I couldn't care less about being "competitive". Having all mechs be "competitive" isn't the goal. The goal is that every mech is fun to play in the role it's given.

Edited by DarkonFullPower, 13 October 2014 - 04:06 PM.


#8 Khobai

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:04 PM

The locust and commando arnt really viable unless they get some kindve one-hit kill protection.

#9 ImperialKnight

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:05 PM

I argue that if done properly, it would help new players learn to build mechs properly. too many facepalm builds in the game. And as Russ has said, you are not penalised in any way for not taking a specific weapon. Just that you're not maximising the mech's potential

#10 Tastian

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:16 PM

Although you could be spot on, I'm taking the "let's wait and see what they are and how they perform before we start complaining" approach.

#11 Kiiyor

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 04:50 PM

View PostTastian, on 13 October 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Although you could be spot on, I'm taking the "let's wait and see what they are and how they perform before we start complaining" approach.


Be very, very careful. You're going against the grain here.

You can't see it, but there are likely readers preparing their linchin' ropes and miscellaneous stabbing equipment. People don't take kindly to people who don't jump to conclusions 'round these parts.

#12 Pale Jackal

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:09 PM

Obviously just buffing the chassis's best weapon system would be foolish. I think the non-hero Jagermechs are Tier 3. Should PGI give them an AC20 or Gauss buff? I would think not, and I don't think PGI is that dumb. For the most part, I think the weapon buffs will be class-based rather than a specific weapon (e.g. reduced energy weapon heat, than reduced PPC heat, though I would love to see an Awesome 8Q able to fire 3 PPCs without ghost heat.)

Increasing other variables such as 'mech speed and the like would also be nice. Maybe unnecessary, since 'mechs like the Dragon can already mount a bigger engine, but perhaps a +10% speed buff would be more interesting than a weapons buff. It would clearly say, "The Dragon is a cavalry 'mech" rather than "The Dragon CAN be a cavalry 'mech."

I'm just happy PGI is finally using a Quirks system.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 13 October 2014 - 05:09 PM.


#13 orcrist86

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:10 PM

Posted Image

#14 HlynkaCG

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:19 PM

View PostKhobai, on 13 October 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

The locust and commando arnt really viable unless they get some kindve one-hit kill protection.


I get the impression that you've never actually piloted a commando or locust.

They cram a surprisingly significant amount of murder into a rather unassuming package and seeing as how all the super-meta-competitive players tend to skimp on their rear armor...

#15 1453 R

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:31 PM

View PostHlynkaCG, on 13 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:


I get the impression that you've never actually piloted a commando or locust.

They cram a surprisingly significant amount of murder into a rather unassuming package and seeing as how all the super-meta-competitive players tend to skimp on their rear armor...


Counterpoint: by the time most players get to the point where they're taking less than ten points of rear armor per torso, it's usually because they don't let people get behind them very often any more. 'Sides, the 'Mech's internal structure provides some leeway that you still have to chew through. Commandon'ts and Lolcusts can't usually hang around to chew properly though, unless the guy they're behind is a total slurpaderp anyways.

#16 Khobai

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:38 PM

Quote

I get the impression that you've never actually piloted a commando or locust.


I have actually. But the fact remains they need one hit kill protection.


Quote

Counterpoint: by the time most players get to the point where they're taking less than ten points of rear armor per torso


You cant do that in a light mech though because other lights chase you. You have to put back armor on a light mech.

One of the biggest problems with light mechs is that they have very little internal structure so theyre forced to split armor front/back unlike heavies or assaults which often only run 1 back armor because they have the internal structure to take several hits to the back.

Locusts/Commandos will never be competitively viable as long as they can be killed in one hit from dual gauss or whatever other 30+ damage pinpoint combo players are using. I personally think they should get one-hit kill protection so they can't die the first time they take damage to a location. Theres precedent for it since MW4 had one-hit kill protection too.

#17 101011

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 06:01 PM

View PostHlynkaCG, on 13 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:


I get the impression that you've never actually piloted a commando or locust.

They cram a surprisingly significant amount of murder into a rather unassuming package and seeing as how all the super-meta-competitive players tend to skimp on their rear armor...


If you actually managed to get a Locust or Commando to that tier, then kudos. Of course, those players will pretty much never let you get behind them, so good luck exploiting that, but whatever.

#18 Kmieciu

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:34 AM

I run 2 points of rear armor on a Dire Wolf. Can't remember the last time someone killed me from behind. On the other hand I remember killing two Spiders during one game that wanted to backstab me...

Edited by Kmieciu, 14 October 2014 - 05:35 AM.


#19 Oogalook

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 07:26 AM

Its already marvelous fun to pilot a locust largely BECAUSE you are so vulnerable. Delivering suffering to a panicking opponent is most fun when he could nail you if only he could spare a moment from wailing away on the atlas which is also bearing down on him. Its a thrill which I relish. Dispite its glaring flaws, the thing has unique abilities, namely, teaching the pilot the meaning of mortal peril.

Edited by Oogalook, 14 October 2014 - 07:32 AM.


#20 HlynkaCG

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 10:11 AM

View Post101011, on 13 October 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:


If you actually managed to get a Locust or Commando to that tier, then kudos. Of course, those players will pretty much never let you get behind them, so good luck exploiting that, but whatever.



Honestly I'm not sure what my ELO is but I've managed to maintain KDRs > 1.0 in both and seem to get matched with competent players more than not.

The trick is actually not to get too far from the rest of the team. Given the choice between orienting one's front armor towards a Locust or towards a MadCat most will face the heavier mech giving you an opportunity to go to work.

ETA:
People don't expect a locust to have a 27 dmg alpha, and thus ignore it at their peril
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...254d40a6f3845a6

Ecm Commandos were basically invented to back-stab.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cd7588cb874519e

Edited by HlynkaCG, 14 October 2014 - 10:21 AM.






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