83 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Reitrix, on 24 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

So help me with this .. When you pop your head over a ridge and a Dire Wolf glances at you and pulls the trigger on 2 Gauss Rifles and 3 PPCs for 60 damage from 800 meters away and blows out your Mediums Side Torso, killing you instantly(IS), its a "play better" situation? Without knowing exactly where every enemy 'Mech is at all times along with their loadout, and being able to know which way said target is facing and what heat state they're all in ... It's impossible to not get one shot due to the ability to drop massive pinpoint alphas all day long. Take a situation where that Dire Wolf can only fire one gun at a time with 0.5 seconds between, The first GR round to hit you alerts you to danger on your CT, you twist, taking the second GR to your left arm while backing away his first PPC hits your R-ST because you twisted to get damage on your undamaged side, and his second 2 PPC shots land on your R-arm . The Dire Wolf still planted 60 damage on you, but he didn't damn near blow out your CT with that one shot.

Actually, yes...

If you are hill humping you do not poke and stare, you peek just enough and are already holding the S key to go back because you KNOW that shot is coming...you have to be focused.

Also, you have to consider, looking over a hill can use 3PV to some degree to just peak over the ridge...honestly about the only time I bother to use it is when I see that peaking could be detrimental and I am heavily damaged already. Could I use it to greater effect? Sure...but, I too am lazy about it...

There is ALWAYS something you could have done better...

[Metus regem]

Gyrok, on 24 October 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Actually, yes...

If you are hill humping you do not poke and stare, you peek just enough and are already holding the S key to go back because you KNOW that shot is coming...you have to be focused.

Also, you have to consider, looking over a hill can use 3PV to some degree to just peak over the ridge...honestly about the only time I bother to use it is when I see that peaking could be detrimental and I am heavily damaged already. Could I use it to greater effect? Sure...but, I too am lazy about it...

There is ALWAYS something you could have done better...

Yea, like using 3pv to spot Iraqwalker when he was on top of my dire wolf that one time, killing me.... rather than looking around trying to find him....

[Gyrok]

Another point here as well...

In your little canticle about the peaking medium, you also discount the fact that the whale has to wait 0.75 seconds to discharge the gauss, meaning timed PPC/Gauss combo actually takes 1.55 seconds to reach you, and even with your australian ping gives you over 1.2 seconds to react, if untimed, you only get 0.8.

Which is quite sufficient time to react.

[YueFei]

Reitrix, on 24 October 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

And you can shave off 279 ms for that Gauss to arrive, since im playing from Australia. Meaning i have just over 0.2 seconds to react.

That's not how the latency works. Because you are the one peeking first, as soon as you see him and start twisting or backing down, the reaction time is based purely on how long it took for you to react after you saw him. From the DWF's PoV, he'll see you peek about 280 milliseconds after you peeked over on your client, but if you reacted in 200 milliseconds to twist+reverse after you saw him, then from the DWF's PoV it will also seem as if you reacted within 200 milliseconds after you saw him. It won't look to him like you ran to the top, stood there, and then reversed after 480 milliseconds. It will look like you crested and then reversed after 200 milliseconds. Your latency only counts against you if you try to react to a shot as it's happening, rather than moving in an anticipatory fashion.

It works the same for people *you* shoot at, BTW, because of the way HSR works. A guy with low ping can't wait until he sees you shoot and then twist, because by the time he sees you shooting him, it already happened 280 milliseconds ago on your client, which the server will rewind for and reward the hit. That's why sometimes people twist to the side but get a HSR hit to the CT anyways.

Everybody on both sides, both low ping and high ping, have to move in an anticipatory way.

Anyways, your brain also has a decent short-term memory of things you saw, but it takes awhile to process and react. It's usually smarter to peek and back down immediately, and then ponder the "snapshot" of what you saw, rather than trying to peek, see, analyze what you're seeing, and then decide how to react. By the time your eyes recognize what you're seeing it might already be too late. The DWF pilot just needs to see movement, realize there's no blue triangles over there, aim and shoot. But maybe you're trying to size up the situation, see what enemy mechs are there, how many, what types, etc., and the extra processing load on your brain slows your reactions. Better to just peek and duck down immediately and then think about what you saw after you're already safely back into cover.

Also try running laterally along the ridgeline, using left/right turning to climb up or descend from the ridgeline, it makes you harder to hit and breaks up enemy's convergence because they have to lead the shot and end up aiming into the background trying to hit you. If you have jump jets you can do lateral parabolic jumps. If you don't have jump jets, you can still do it, but it usually makes for a very bumpy run, it's very difficult to shoot accurately while doing this.

You can also turn torso sideways and free-look to the side while doing this, it makes you a skinnier target, further preventing the enemy from putting his reticule directly on you for perfect convergence at that range, forcing him to aim into thin air.

Having said that, I don't use that free-look technique, I'm too lazy, but you can try it out, it should help.

Honestly I'm not that scared of getting shot at 800 meters. At 400 meters it's a different story, the Gauss+PPC sync up more, he might be able to aim directly on my mech's body for perfect convergence even if I'm moving laterally, etc. Or, because it's closer up, there's probably background objects closer by so even if he has to aim ahead of my mech he might still get really good convergence. I'm more scared at that range.

You might have more of a point if you're talking about that closer range of 400 meters, but you don't help your argument if you exaggerate it to 800 meters. =/

Edited by YueFei, 24 October 2014 - 11:20 PM.

[mogs01gt]

Its really getting old being practically forced to run Heavies and larger since DWF's can one hit Mediums. Its a big turn off to the game.

lol fighting someone else, DWF unloads....This game is really getting to be a bore..

Edited by mogs01gt, 24 October 2014 - 07:24 PM.

[FupDup]

My definition of "Overpowered" is essentially a situation where the 'reward' associated with a certain item/tactic is substantially higher than the 'risk' of using said item/tactic.

[Kiiyor]

divinedisclaimer, on 24 October 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Basically just dual gauss shouldn't exist, that's my only complaint. As far as game design goes the introduction of mechs that can carry two gauss guns and other weapons as well is too much damage, even for themselves. The spin-up is no challenge to many players.

Even if you just hard-locked that weapon to single-use-per-mech, it would still be useful due to it's insane projectile speed and awesome range. You just wouldn't be killing mechs in two hits with it.

I think it absolutely SHOULD exist, but as a primarily primary weapon system. The issue for me isn't dual Gauss, it's dual Gauss+scads of extra firepower.

I think the GaussYager is just about right in terms of firepower and low survivability. If you get into a decent position, you can have a large effect on the battlefield. If you take hits (at all) you're probably doomed. A Gauss cannon exploding is probably GG to your ST too.

The GaussWolf on the other hand... that thing can carry a brace of Gauss + a horrifying amount of extra firepower. The inherent fragility of Gauss means nothing when it's encased in freaking adamantium. It can even do quad-gauss and fire (macroed) like a freaking Gauss machine gun.

And I know that it has 'drawbacks' like low speed and maneuverability, but, IMHO, the armour and firepower that thing carries more than makes up for it.

Wow, how bitter do I sound? Maybe I shouldn't write posts like this after being one shot in lights.

[Pale Jackal]

FupDup, on 24 October 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

My definition of "Overpowered" is essentially a situation where the 'reward' associated with a certain item/tactic is substantially higher than the 'risk' of using said item/tactic.

Well said.

Also, the community doesn't want to nerf things that are good. They simply want every 'mech to be reasonably viable. If one 'mech is much better than the rest, then something needs to change.

[elsie]

divinedisclaimer, on 24 October 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Basically just dual gauss shouldn't exist, that's my only complaint. As far as game design goes the introduction of mechs that can carry two gauss guns and other weapons as well is too much damage, even for themselves. The spin-up is no challenge to many players.

Even if you just hard-locked that weapon to single-use-per-mech, it would still be useful due to it's insane projectile speed and awesome range. You just wouldn't be killing mechs in two hits with it.

Devastator

[Ultimax]

Reitrix, on 24 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

When you pop your head over a ridge and a Dire Wolf glances at you and pulls the trigger on 2 Gauss Rifles and 3 PPCs for 60 damage from 800 meters away and blows out your Mediums Side Torso, killing you instantly(IS), its a "play better" situation?

Yes.


You do understand it takes almost a full second for those PPCs to reach out to 800m right?


1) Don't pop your head over ridges and hold it still.
2) Don't pop your head over the ridges people always pop their heads over.

[Ultimax]

Kiiyor, on 24 October 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

I think it absolutely SHOULD exist, but as a primarily primary weapon system. The issue for me isn't dual Gauss, it's dual Gauss+scads of extra firepower.

I think the GaussYager is just about right in terms of firepower and low survivability. If you get into a decent position, you can have a large effect on the battlefield. If you take hits (at all) you're probably doomed. A Gauss cannon exploding is probably GG to your ST too.

The GaussWolf on the other hand... that thing can carry a brace of Gauss + a horrifying amount of extra firepower. The inherent fragility of Gauss means nothing when it's encased in freaking adamantium. It can even do quad-gauss and fire (macroed) like a freaking Gauss machine gun.

And I know that it has 'drawbacks' like low speed and maneuverability, but, IMHO, the armour and firepower that thing carries more than makes up for it.

Wow, how bitter do I sound? Maybe I shouldn't write posts like this after being one shot in lights.

"4 Gauss" and "2 Gauss + 3 PPCs at 800m" are the new red herrings in the current forums hyperbole.


Build it, play it, get back to me.



Fun Facts:

Typical DWF build has 51T to work with, can shave armor to hit 52T - below that you are cutting legs below 60, and probably shaving a good portion off arms.

4x Gauss = 48T before ammo.
2x Gauss + 3x PPC = 42T before heatsinks or ammo. 3x CERPPCs = 63.90 heat.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 October 2014 - 08:50 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Ultimatum X, on 24 October 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

"4 Gauss" and "2 Gauss + 3 PPCs at 800m" are the new red herrings in the current forums hyperbole.


Build it, play it, get back to me.



Fun Facts:

Typical DWF build has 51T to work with, can shave armor to hit 52T - below that you are cutting legs below 60, and probably shaving a good portion off arms.

4x Gauss = 48T before ammo.
2x Gauss + 3x PPC = 42T before heatsinks or ammo. 3x CERPPCs = 63.90 heat.

I have played them.

Quad Guass reminds me of the quad UAC5 Jager. Hilarious for the 6 seconds you can fire, paperweights after that. That build really isn't a problem though, unless you're the unfortunate soul on the receiving end.

WIth 3 CERPPC's, you treat them as a backup system, that you fire when heat allows. Even firing once in a blue moon, that's a horrifying amount of extra firepower. And 2 PPC's are arguably far better than three.

The thing is, CERPPC's don't really bother me. The DG+Laser vomit builds do. Or DG+Dakka. Or DG+missiles. All the drawbacks of weapons like lasers, missiles and Dakka are almost mooted with the versatility of a dual Gauss alpha, and the non-gauss weapons cover up the gaps in usability created by the Gauss.

Anyhoo, that's my issue. There's no real tradeoff for carrying DG on a whale, because you always have enough tonnage free to mount lots of effective weapons in addition to the DG, which no other mech can do. The tradeoffs are speed and maneuverability, but IMHO the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks when piloting a Dire.

[Kavoh]

divinedisclaimer, on 24 October 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

15 damage doesn't ruin your day in one hit, 30 does.



It's sort of like stepping in front of a train. You should be aware of the train.

15 damage can ruin your day depending on what you pilot. Also, you cannot compare popping up and over a hill or through a street at the start of the match and catching a random double gauss to the X and stripping off all its armor to "stepping out in front of a train". If you find a train that doesn't use railroad tracks that will travel as fast and silently (and as small as) a Guass round I will concede defeat. I guess bullet trains are hitting people as they walk down an alley now. Now that would be similar to taking a random double gauss from 800 meters.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Noticed the train started falling off the track but got right back on it again:

Players adding their personal situations as to how the game may be unfair due to weapon loadouts on various weight classes.

How Latency plays a part in reaction times between two players where one is able to take action before the other is able to react to the delayed data gathering of what they see when peeking out from behind cover.

As for me.. I've ruined the day of many players using my Medium Pulse Laser x6 build. Taking out the L or R Torso of a Medium/Heavy/Assault Inner Sphere through hitting their front 'cause they decided to use XL Engines. Or just getting lucky with a headshot. I've been on the receiving end too.. some enemy circling around and flanking my team from behind.. me standing there with full armor scanning the field and then POP I go from having Full Armor all around at 100% to having my back armor completely removed and CT destroyed from a Jenner having Medium Lasers x6.

I saw a comment about how there are Clan 'Mechs with loadouts that are able to core an Inner Sphere Medium Weight 'Mech via alpha strike even if the target had 100% armor.. Unlucky for the target but does that call for the adjustment of that Clan 'Mech's loadout just because it's able to do its job in a short amount of time?

As for the Autocannon functions.. it seems that the Clan AC in mwomercs works like how the Inner Sphere AC works back in Mechwarrior 3.. Instead of a single slug it's divided up into multiple as seen here in this video starting around the 3:50 marker


I know that Mechwarrior 3 probably doesn't follow many rules but I still view it as a decent platform to base comparisons to.

Adjustments seem to be fine if they still follow the rules of first person shooter games but not sure if some of the adjustments are staying true to the base idea of how the game is supposed to function or if the adjustments are deviating a bit too much causing the gameplay to turn into a giant pillow fight without the feathers flying all over the place (which possibly may be added later on in future patches if things continue going the way they are I guess).

[Joseph Mallan]

divinedisclaimer, on 24 October 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Basically just dual gauss shouldn't exist, that's my only complaint. As far as game design goes the introduction of mechs that can carry two gauss guns and other weapons as well is too much damage, even for themselves. The spin-up is no challenge to many players.

Even if you just hard-locked that weapon to single-use-per-mech, it would still be useful due to it's insane projectile speed and awesome range. You just wouldn't be killing mechs in two hits with it.

Dual Gauss is all over the game, in the Assault class... there is even gausszilla a 5 Gauss monster that doesn't "Officially" exist but was designed by a TT DEVs.

oh and checking in at 60 tons:

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2014 - 02:28 AM.

[Kjudoon]

OP = Exploited game design flaws.

This will never be solved because no game is perfect and just like when someone learns the cheat codes, soon you won't see the game played without them.

Edited by Kjudoon, 25 October 2014 - 02:28 AM.

[anonymous161]

To the original topic this is a good reason why I decided to be done with the game, I haven't played it since they nerfed the clans large lasers, they keep changing the game and it's not usually to make it better for the long run it's just a band aid. The fact that we still dont have a working competent matchmaking system or clan warefare tells me it was the right thing to do that being just exiting from playing the game.

I check back once in a while to see if they finally managed a big leap in bringing the game closer to their original vision,, but it's clear thats impossible now, they may have made good money from this but not nearly enough people still play this regularly for there to be any chance of them just rebooting it or making a separate mechwarrior game closer to what we were originally led into believing we were gonna get.

The only reason I ever spent money on this and thats nearly a thousand bucks was because they said if this was successful enough they would make a campaign like we have been shouting out for years now about, but it was all for nothing. Not one penny was ever going to be used to bringing back the glorious stories we used to get out of the franchise. Oh well some franchises stay strong some just disappear, or become rather moot. I think gaming is just getting harder and harder to enjoy anymore it's all about squeezing as much money out of someone without delivering anything for it.

Edited by Darth Bane001, 25 October 2014 - 02:36 AM.

[HlynkaCG]

divinedisclaimer, on 24 October 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Basically just dual gauss shouldn't exist, that's my only complaint. As far as game design goes the introduction of mechs that can carry two gauss guns and other weapons as well is too much damage, even for themselves. The spin-up is no challenge to many players.

Even if you just hard-locked that weapon to single-use-per-mech, it would still be useful due to it's insane projectile speed and awesome range. You just wouldn't be killing mechs in two hits with it.

So I guess you must be really pissed about the King Crab being added to the game

[KuroNyra]

Dual Gauss and other stuff like that are fine.
If you are facing a dual Gauss Dire Wolf, you are doing something wrong.

Double carry of weapons were done in the lore.

You disagree with it? Fine, but the others have the right to use it.


Dual Gauss are dangerous, but rely on ammo. + The gauss can be destroyed and dealing damage to the commponent. So.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Unfortunately they conveniently omit that part of the argument when they go on their rants about how "gauss rifles are too strong! I want them to deal 7.5 damage to me and if I destroy their gauss rifle I want the weapon to deal over 30 damage to themselves!" It would be nice if they included everything in their problem with certain features of games instead of just adding whatever they think will get what they want out of it done by sharing only half (if that) of the story.

KuroNyra, on 25 October 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

Dual Gauss and other stuff like that are fine.
If you are facing a dual Gauss Dire Wolf, you are doing something wrong.
Dual Gauss are dangerous, but rely on ammo. + The gauss can be destroyed and dealing damage to the commponent. So.