83 replies to this topic

[The Boz]

The weapon explosion of a Gauss is not a weakness, it is a major strength, because it typically deals FAR less damage than an ammo explosion.

[Aresye]

The Boz, on 25 October 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

The weapon explosion of a Gauss is not a weakness, it is a major strength, because it typically deals FAR less damage than an ammo explosion.

Unfortunately (unlike an ammo explosion) Gauss is almost always guaranteed to explode, making it a much higher risk, especially on XL builds.

[Mcgral18]

The Boz, on 25 October 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

The weapon explosion of a Gauss is not a weakness, it is a major strength, because it typically deals FAR less damage than an ammo explosion.

That 90% chance offsets that.

1.4% chance for a ammo explosion if you have two tons in the legs (with a 10+FLD source); AKA 98.6% chance for 0 damage, compared to 90% chance of 20 damage.

[ollo]

Reitrix, on 24 October 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Riddle me this.

If i choose to fire 6 Medium lasers 'at once' in table top, do all 6 Medium lasers strike on 1 to-hit roll? Or do they each have their own to-hit roll?

While I can understand the criticism that MWO does not translate the TT-rules 1:1, I still don't get why it is posted constantly. Applying TT rules to realtime combat is impossible, it's as simple as that. That's also why PGI tries various approaches to mitigate the potential problems resulting from this issue like AOE PPCs, decoupling weapon speeds, limit simultaneous guass charge and gauss charge in itself etc.

While these approaches are far from perfect and need further adjustment in many cases, I'll gladly take even ghost heat over cone of fire. Seriously, I still don't get what what is even proposed by the "wahwah pinpoint damage nerfnerf"-crowd. Do you really think it's a good idea to have weapons going into random directions from the place you're pointing at? At 800m, what do you think a PPC/AC/Gauss will hit even with 0,5° CoF? I don't want to experience the frustration of losing a duel despite higher skill due to ****** dice rolls. Taking skill out of the game and replacing it with luck is almost never a valid idea.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

ollo, on 25 October 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

While I can understand the criticism that MWO does not translate the TT-rules 1:1, I still don't get why it is posted constantly. Applying TT rules to realtime combat is impossible, it's as simple as that. That's also why PGI tries various approaches to mitigate the potential problems resulting from this issue like AOE PPCs, decoupling weapon speeds, limit simultaneous guass charge and gauss charge in itself etc.

While these approaches are far from perfect and need further adjustment in many cases, I'll gladly take even ghost heat over cone of fire. Seriously, I still don't get what what is even proposed by the "wahwah pinpoint damage nerfnerf"-crowd. Do you really think it's a good idea to have weapons going into random directions from the place you're pointing at? At 800m, what do you think a PPC/AC/Gauss will hit even with 0,5° CoF? I don't want to experience the frustration of losing a duel despite higher skill due to ****** dice rolls. Taking skill out of the game and replacing it with luck is almost never a valid idea.

'Cone of fire' has nothing to do with pinpoint damage, though?

A good example of this is Clan Autocannons. Those are pin-point (they hit where you aim) but they are not front-loaded (damage is divided into packets). Lasers and missiles work the same way. Even Clan ERPPCs work kind-of-wonkily like this.

The 'problem' is Inner Sphere Autocannons (firing one big slug contrary to how autocannons have always worked in the fluff and earlier games), gauss rifles and (IS) PPCs. They are both pin-point AND front-loaded damage. And in a game where the player can aim himself, instead of relying on the dice and hit-location charts, we get the current situation where the winning strategy is to load up on as much of an alpha-strike as possible and simply core out CTs while ignoring the rest of the mech.

The problem is not pin-point damage or front-loaded damage; the problem is the combination of both.

[KraftySOT]

You ever get the feeling that the people who are like "Nah theres no problem with PP damage and dying in one hit, you just gotta do ________" are like the people that say, "Nah theres no problem with sexual assault, you just gotta learn karate and use mace" instead of say....eliminating sexual assault.


Of COURSE theres a way to mitigate any systems effects through personal action.

Just because you can doesnt mean the system is "good" however.

Just because you can lower your chances of skin cancer by using sunblock, doesnt meant that its ok to stand around in the sun all day. The sun is still killing you despite you mitigating the damage. When you come up with strategies that help you mitigate the 60-80 point alpha strikes...it doesnt meant that the huge pin point alpha strikes arent a problem.


There was a way to "get by" in a concentration camp.

It doesnt make being a concentration camp any better. Its just how you "deal with it,"

All those strategies are just "dealing with" a ridiculous situation forced upon you.

Edited by KraftySOT, 25 October 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Davegt27]

[RazorbeastFXK3]

I don't have a screenshot but I've been destroyed within 1 minute of battle time having dealt 0 Kills, 0 Assists, 0 Spotting Assists and 0 Damage. One alpha strike from Medium Lasers x6 to the Rear CT. Now I use Seismic Modules so I lessen the chance of getting snuck up on anymore.

Davegt27, on 25 October 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

[ollo]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 25 October 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

'Cone of fire' has nothing to do with pinpoint damage, though?

A good example of this is Clan Autocannons. Those are pin-point (they hit where you aim) but they are not front-loaded (damage is divided into packets). Lasers and missiles work the same way. Even Clan ERPPCs work kind-of-wonkily like this.

The 'problem' is Inner Sphere Autocannons (firing one big slug contrary to how autocannons have always worked in the fluff and earlier games), gauss rifles and (IS) PPCs. They are both pin-point AND front-loaded damage. And in a game where the player can aim himself, instead of relying on the dice and hit-location charts, we get the current situation where the winning strategy is to load up on as much of an alpha-strike as possible and simply core out CTs while ignoring the rest of the mech.

The problem is not pin-point damage or front-loaded damage; the problem is the combination of both.

Ok, i see what you mean, i thought the one-all-be-all solution was CoF to replicate dice rolls.

But what exactly are you proposing instead? Reading between the lines it seems everything is fine besides IS AC, IS PPC and IS/C Gauss. So what should be done to them? Rapid-fire gauss slugs? ACs that spread damage? Wubwub PPCS? Triple armor?

While i always proposed rapid fire ACs before clans, i now wouldn't change them because a) they're a balance tool between IS and Clans and they actually help in avoiding fast cored CTs as you can fire and torso twist instantly.

But a poster right below you complains of 6ML coring his rear torso, how would the solution to this look? I doubt that everyone will be any happy to be cored by 10 gauss slugs instead of two because they were in a slow mech or 'just peeking over a hill'.

Edited by ollo, 25 October 2014 - 11:45 PM.

[ollo]

KraftySOT, on 25 October 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

You ever get the feeling that the people who are like "Nah theres no problem with PP damage and dying in one hit, you just gotta do ________" are like the people that say, "Nah theres no problem with sexual assault, you just gotta learn karate and use mace" instead of say....eliminating sexual assault.


Of COURSE theres a way to mitigate any systems effects through personal action.

Just because you can doesnt mean the system is "good" however.

Just because you can lower your chances of skin cancer by using sunblock, doesnt meant that its ok to stand around in the sun all day. The sun is still killing you despite you mitigating the damage. When you come up with strategies that help you mitigate the 60-80 point alpha strikes...it doesnt meant that the huge pin point alpha strikes arent a problem.


There was a way to "get by" in a concentration camp.

It doesnt make being a concentration camp any better. Its just how you "deal with it,"

All those strategies are just "dealing with" a ridiculous situation forced upon you.

So what is YOUR proposition? I'm not saying there is no problem, i just don't know what your solution would be. PGI tries a lot of different solutions, but apparently they are not enough, so let us hear what you think.

Also, Godwin's law.

[YueFei]

KraftySOT, on 25 October 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

You ever get the feeling that the people who are like "Nah theres no problem with PP damage and dying in one hit, you just gotta do ________" are like the people that say, "Nah theres no problem with sexual assault, you just gotta learn karate and use mace" instead of say....eliminating sexual assault.


Of COURSE theres a way to mitigate any systems effects through personal action.

Just because you can doesnt mean the system is "good" however.

Just because you can lower your chances of skin cancer by using sunblock, doesnt meant that its ok to stand around in the sun all day. The sun is still killing you despite you mitigating the damage. When you come up with strategies that help you mitigate the 60-80 point alpha strikes...it doesnt meant that the huge pin point alpha strikes arent a problem.


There was a way to "get by" in a concentration camp.

It doesnt make being a concentration camp any better. Its just how you "deal with it,"

All those strategies are just "dealing with" a ridiculous situation forced upon you.

That's a very bad false equivalence to make. Or do you actually feel like you've been ***** when you get killed in this game?

The BFG was a one-hit kill in Quake 2, but it wasn't overpowered, because it was a slow blob that you could dodge. There's more factors to consider in game balance than simply asking "can this kill in 1 hit?".

The only time I would consider anything "overpowered" in a game is when top players, after wracking their brains for months, cannot think of a way to counter it besides using it themselves and trying to execute better.

If a mech/build/tactic/whatever can be countered by something other than itself, it's not overpowered.

It's like when we were new players and getting reamed by LRMs. But we get better and learn how to counter it. Yeah sometimes we make mistakes and still get blown up by LRMs, but it's not like the only way to counter LRMs is to use massed LRMs yourself.

As long as you have {A} beats {B} beats {C} beats {A}, at a minimum, you have the beginnings of good game mechanics. You can have more than just {A}, {B}, and {C} if you want to, but as long as you're never in a situation where {A} beats everything else, then you're doing OK.

Edited by YueFei, 26 October 2014 - 12:11 AM.

[The Flying Gecko]

My favorite are the people who complain about LRMs: more then any other weapon system in the game, they are simultaneously extremely good, and extremely bad.

If you don't like getting killed by LRM's, it's this simple: E-C-M

Granted, ECM isn't exactly immunity, but the more mechs on your team that have it, the better it is. A single NARC knocks out an ECM for while, but when 5 or more mechs have ECM? Good luck with that.

I've got my Kit-Fox with 3 AMS, and both AMS modules, even I get targeted, I laugh as huge volleys of missiles fail to connect. (Then I play a different mech and *facepalm* when I remember I'm not missile proof any more and get caught in the open).

Radar Deprivation is your 2nd best defense.

Whenever someone complains about LRMs I always have to ask:

If you hate LRM's so much why don't you have ECM? Or at least AMS?

And by Russ' right buttock how is it that so few people are aware/capable of shooting down UAV's?!
I've had matches where I've shot down 8 UAV's. That's just wrong. Someone else on my team ought to be shooting them too!

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Bringing other ECM crap design mechanics is not adding anything.
PPFLD is a problem, thats a fact.
Dev team is trying to go around problem with some strange invented not clear mechanic all the time and has faild everytime.
While the problem is still there and was never adressed besided multiply weak attemps.
HomelessBill with hes targetting computer was best, and would solve the problem inmediataly making gameplay better. But thats require some codding work that you can`t sell inmediataly like mechs.

[Ultimax]

Golden Vulf, on 26 October 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

C-Bill price of the clan mechs means absolutely diddly squat. I have not bought a single clan mech for c-bills. There are a lot of players who are the same.

Talking about arbitrary c-bill values is meaningless because it is a currency some of us only use for buying weapons and equipment for our packs we bought for the preorder price.

Well, that's your decision.

You could have used all of those C-Bills to buy any clan mechs you wanted as they were released.

Alexander MacTaggart, on 25 October 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

A good example of this is Clan Autocannons. Those are pin-point (they hit where you aim) but they are not front-loaded (damage is divided into packets). Lasers and missiles work the same way. Even Clan ERPPCs work kind-of-wonkily like this.

Clan Autocannons are the perfect example of how to design a weapon if you want it to be nearly useless unless heavily boated - and then only boat-able by mechs with a ridiculous amount of podspace to do so.

The only reason they work on the Dire Wolf is because Dire Wolves have so much of it that it reaches a point where it's overwhelming.


I hate the clan Autocannons.

They sound fun, look fun but in practice actually suck really badly for Mechs that can't customize their podspace and are stuck with locked items.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 October 2014 - 05:11 AM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Ultimatum X, on 26 October 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

Clan Autocannons are the perfect example of how to design a weapon if you want it to be nearly useless unless heavily boated - and then only boat-able by mechs with a ridiculous amount of podspace to do so.

[citation needed]

They're actually pretty damn god. Same damage as IS ACs, and lighter/smaller.

[Lily from animove]

ollo, on 25 October 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

While I can understand the criticism that MWO does not translate the TT-rules 1:1, I still don't get why it is posted constantly. Applying TT rules to realtime combat is impossible, it's as simple as that. That's also why PGI tries various approaches to mitigate the potential problems resulting from this issue like AOE PPCs, decoupling weapon speeds, limit simultaneous guass charge and gauss charge in itself etc.

While these approaches are far from perfect and need further adjustment in many cases, I'll gladly take even ghost heat over cone of fire. Seriously, I still don't get what what is even proposed by the "wahwah pinpoint damage nerfnerf"-crowd. Do you really think it's a good idea to have weapons going into random directions from the place you're pointing at? At 800m, what do you think a PPC/AC/Gauss will hit even with 0,5° CoF? I don't want to experience the frustration of losing a duel despite higher skill due to ****** dice rolls. Taking skill out of the game and replacing it with luck is almost never a valid idea.

the problem is dices in tt caused inaccuracy, but currently we have a all kinda cheated dices in our hands which mkes the translation from TT ro real time shooter a bit crappy. So a cone of fire would of course be some translation for dices, but poeple would rant about this too hard.

Ultimatum X, on 26 October 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

Well, that's your decision.

You could have used all of those C-Bills to buy any clan mechs you wanted as they were released.





Clan Autocannons are the perfect example of how to design a weapon if you want it to be nearly useless unless heavily boated - and then only boat-able by mechs with a ridiculous amount of podspace to do so.

The only reason they work on the Dire Wolf is because Dire Wolves have so much of it that it reaches a point where it's overwhelming.


I hate the clan Autocannons.

They sound fun, look fun but in practice actually suck really badly for Mechs that can't customize their podspace and are stuck with locked items.

How a giant crowd of dakka wolves is now laughing so hard that their ammo is in risk to explode from the shake.


but you don't need to boat them. the issue is just with the smaller mechs those AC's are not very appealing because they consume too much tonnage/efficiency. 2 CERML are a better choice. Especially since all the light or mediums don't hae B points in the torso making low slung arms even less appealing to put weapons in there.

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 October 2014 - 05:23 AM.

[Ultimax]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 26 October 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

They're actually pretty damn god. Same damage as IS ACs, and lighter/smaller.

I've used them on every clan mech in the Masakari pack.

I've used 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 UACs of various sizes on various clan mechs.

They are not good.


When you have to spend 19 tons on 2x UAC 5s +5 Tons of ammo that shoot lots of little peanuts, and force you to stand there staring at your opponents, dealing with projectile drop off, leading targets, etc. then you are almost always better going with some combination of lasers + heatsinks instead.


They are not the same damage as IS ACs. IS ACs are better, because their delivery is superior.

It's worth being a little heavier, for the weapon to actually be effective and allow you better defensive tactics when using them.


Feel free to start a topic on it.

[Jacobei]

I giggle at the players that use realism as a way to point out OP... Because the video game about huge robots fighting in the future is not real enough for them!

[Butane9000]

How to balance dual gauss:

Limit to firing one Gauss at a time.

PPCs cannot be fired while a Gauss rifle is charging or charged to be fired.

There you go.

[Lily from animove]

ah derp, delete pls

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 October 2014 - 05:23 AM.