22 replies to this topic

[Kain Demos]

Is it just me or are these completely useless unless you're having a "let's see who can power down the fastest" contest?

For instance, who in their right mind would want the rate of fire of a CERPPC increased? Or the range either for that matter since their slow travel speed doesn't make them very useful at 800-900m anyway. Modules better suited to this weapon would be increased velocity and heat reduction.

As far as lasers go the range is nice on small, medium, er lasers and the pulse laser family. I don't see much use for it on the CERLL though with its very long beam duration how much of that damage are you actually going to get in at those extended ranges? Once again though I fail to see the benefit to the cooldown modules because any energy build is going to require trigger discipline to manage your heat and not shut down. These modules will not help at all. I think they would be better off being replaced by heat reduction modules instead.

I think the problem lies in just making two types of weapon modules (+ range and -cycle time) and applying them to every weapon across the board. The 3 main types of weapons (ballistic, energy, and missile) are so different that I don't think a one-size-fits-all approach is a very rewarding or complex enough to add to the nice systems we already have in place.

I'm sure some of the missile and ballistic modules are not optimal fits either (I bet some would rather see projectile speed instead of range or increased ammo per ton) but I personally don't use those weapons/modules enough to have a strong opinion on them.

Is anyone else disappointed at the lack of variety in the weapon modules?

Edited by Kain Thul, 30 October 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[Bigbacon]

nothing wrong with them. it is a choice the player gets to make. You aren't force in anyway to use them.

Heat management plays a part no matter what you do for the most part.

that quicker cooldown or more range could be the tipping point in any encounter.

Not that there couldn't be other options but i think having the blanket approach is better than each weapon type having different options.

Edited by Bigbacon, 30 October 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[EnzyteBob82]

I like the ERLL CD module. I run it on my 2 C-ERLL 4 C-MERL Timberwolf setup. It brings the Large lasers almost in sync with the mediums for multiple alphas and good pin point damage. Definitely not useless.

Yes, less heat would be better, but then you have people running an extra laser on a build because they don't need as many heat sinks. A module that essentially provides room for more firepower is a beast module and bordering on OP if you ask me.

[Lily from animove]

well unlike the ballistic modules, the faster heatup on those mmehc sis definately a downside.for hit and run mehcs, it can be interesting if it allows you to throw out 2 volleys before having to return. Others than that its only really usefull on builds that have a high heat efficiency, which rarely is the case.

beam duration reduction modules would make more sense, as well as ppc velocity mods, but it looks like we get mostlikely "modules of the same kind" No matter what kind of weapon.

why no having missile spread decreasing mods as well? doesn't needs to be something like 50% but 15% for a stage 5 mod.
LBX spread reduction mods.
AC/PPC velocity mods.
heat reduction mods for energyweapons, like up to 5% or 10%. Which basically would be a lot more usefull than faster energy weapon firerate.

yes they could be a lot more creative with weapon modles..#

EnzyteBob82, on 30 October 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

A module that essentially provides room for more firepower is a beast module and bordering on OP if you ask me.

that basically says all AC/UAC modules are OP except 20's, because the (U)AC 5's basically increase the damage without any downside.
Hey 6x UAC 5 Dakkawolf, is basically getting like an entire UAC for free with the 5staged Uac mod.

Edited by Lily from animove, 30 October 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Bigbacon, on 30 October 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

nothing wrong with them. it is a choice the player gets to make. You aren't force in anyway to use them.

Heat management plays a part no matter what you do for the most part.

that quicker cooldown or more range could be the tipping point in any encounter.

Not that there couldn't be other options but i think having the blanket approach is better than each weapon type having different options.

Of course no one is forcing me to take anything my point has everything to do with your last sentence. Let me use WHK-PRIME as an example. I run this mostly stock, all 4 CERPPCs but I remove the useless CLRM-10 to max out all the armor and run a MKVI TC (MK VII can't fit in the RT). This 'mech has 2 weapon module slots but there is no way I will spend 6,000,000 C-bills on the two CERPPC modules currently available.

Lily from animove, on 30 October 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

well unlike the ballistic modules, the faster heatup on those mmehc sis definately a downside.for hit and run mehcs, it can be interesting if it allows you to throw out 2 volleys before having to return. Others than that its only really usefull on builds that have a high heat efficiency, which rarely is the case.

beam duration reduction modules would make more sense, as well as ppc velocity mods, but it looks like we get mostlikely "modules of the same kind" No matter what kind of weapon.

why no having missile spread decreasing mods as well? doesn't needs to be something like 50% but 15% for a stage 5 mod.
LBX spread reduction mods.
AC/PPC velocity mods.
heat reduction mods for energyweapons, like up to 5% or 10%. Which basically would be a lot more usefull than faster energy weapon firerate.

yes they could be a lot more creative with weapon modles..

Good ideas all and the exact discussion I was hoping to start.

Having blanket 2 types of weapon modules across the board does not match up well with out huge diversity of weapons systems and loadouts.

[Mcgral18]

You'll be killing things faster while generating less heat.

All we'll have to do is get used to the new heat curve, and when the heat ceiling comes into effect.

[Kain Demos]

EnzyteBob82, on 30 October 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

I like the ERLL CD module. I run it on my 2 C-ERLL 4 C-MERL Timberwolf setup. It brings the Large lasers almost in sync with the mediums for multiple alphas and good pin point damage. Definitely not useless.

Yes, less heat would be better, but then you have people running an extra laser on a build because they don't need as many heat sinks. A module that essentially provides room for more firepower is a beast module and bordering on OP if you ask me.

For as much as modules cost they should do something that makes you want to actually use them. Also if they are more useful they can be used as another balancing feature--look at how the "better" 'mechs already have less slots than "worse" 'mechs. If modules were more useful and better adapted to individual weapons systems they could play an even larger role in game balance so they don't always have to fall back on quirks.

Let's use the Nova for example. A lot of people hate how hard Nova Prime was hit by nerfs to the medium laser's heat generation but it has two module slots for weapons. The CERML range module is a no brainer but for the second module a heat reduction module would suit this 'mech FAR more than increased rate of fire.

Edited by Kain Thul, 30 October 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Bilbo]

Depends on the mech. Energy cool down does not really hurt my Firestarter while a cooldown module for any weapon pushes my Atlas over the edge. My flame tends to run hot anyway as well. My 4sp wouldn't be hurt badly by them. etc...

[Riverboat Sam]

Personally, if you carry enough heat sinks to fire your lasers four or five times before overheating the cool down module can give you a nice advantage. Really lets you pound an enemy for the short term.

[Jman5]

Once you start getting up toward shutdown it's not that helpful, but for the times in between that I think it's pretty useful. It's not uncommon to find myself in a close fight where the winner is decided by the fraction of a second differences in the follow up shot.

[Kain Demos]

Riverboat Sam, on 30 October 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Personally, if you carry enough heat sinks to fire your lasers four or five times before overheating the cool down module can give you a nice advantage. Really lets you pound an enemy for the short term.

Bilbo, on 30 October 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Depends on the mech. Energy cool down does not really hurt my Firestarter while a cooldown module for any weapon pushes my Atlas over the edge. My flame tends to run hot anyway as well. My 4sp wouldn't be hurt badly by them. etc...

More good points--every 'mech is different so more types of modules would be a nice boon to the customization process. Wouldn't it be nice to put the cooldown reduction on your Firestarter and a heat gen reduction on the Atlas?

[Bilbo]

Kain Thul, on 30 October 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

More good points--every 'mech is different so more types of modules would be a nice boon to the customization process. Wouldn't it be nice to put the cooldown reduction on your Firestarter and a heat gen reduction on the Atlas?

Honestly, I think heat gen reduction is much better left to quirks. I'd rather you have to make a choice as to whether you should take something. Heat gen reduction would be one of those must haves on most builds.

[EnzyteBob82]

Riverboat Sam, on 30 October 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Personally, if you carry enough heat sinks to fire your lasers four or five times before overheating the cool down module can give you a nice advantage. Really lets you pound an enemy for the short term.

^^^^^^^This

If you produce a module that has the same function as heat sinks, you no longer need as many heat sinks do you? This frees up tonnage, in turn changing the entire build of the mech. Modules should be supplemental, not game changers.

[Lily from animove]

Bilbo, on 30 October 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Honestly, I think heat gen reduction is much better left to quirks. I'd rather you have to make a choice as to whether you should take something. Heat gen reduction would be one of those must haves on most builds.

like dakka cooldown is, ebacuse it does esactly the same, more damage within the same time, while heat reduction just would mean being able to sustain damage for a longer time.

As long as Ac cooldown mods are fine, heat reduction on E weapions would be fine too. no one speaks about amazingly 20% but maybe 5 % or such would definately not be that OP at all.

EnzyteBob82, on 30 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

^^^^^^^This

If you produce a module that has the same function as heat sinks, you no longer need as many heat sinks do you? This frees up tonnage, in turn changing the entire build of the mech. Modules should be supplemental, not game changers.

As said, a module making 6 UAC5's basically in 7 uac5's is right then? while a mod probably allowing to add more lasers (if you even would have the hardpoints) would be wrong? where is the consistency in that logic?

Edited by Lily from animove, 30 October 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[EnzyteBob82]

Lily from animove, on 30 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

As said, a module making 6 UAC5's basically in 7 uac5's is right then? while a mod probably allowing to add more lasers (if you even would have the hardpoints) would be wrong? where is the consistency in that logic?

There is actually quite a difference there. Both weapons systems are limited in their total shots fired by the measure of heat produced. This does not affect AC systems nearly as much as Laser systems.

But to say the CD is producing a whole other UAC5 is stretching it a bit, don't cha think? It would take 8+ continuous cycles of the AC's to get another shot off in the same time as without the module. How often are you doing that without a jam? My guess is NEVER. Even then, you are not actually mounting a whole other AC on your mech. You are not having to add or discard heat sinks. The only real world benefit the AC cool down module provides, is getting that extra shot in before an enemy finds cover. Or those split second moments when you're both cored in a brawl and the next shot wins.

The same cannot be said for lasers, you actually COULD mount a whole other laser in certain situations and be getting that benefit EVERY time you fire. Energy weapons live and die by HEAT. If you start adjusting that baseline with a module, they can take advantage of it on a huge scale. That's my logic

[Lily from animove]

EnzyteBob82, on 30 October 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

There is actually quite a difference there. Both weapons systems are limited in their total shots fired by the measure of heat produced. This does not affect AC systems nearly as much as Laser systems.

But to say the CD is producing a whole other UAC5 is stretching it a bit, don't cha think? It would take 8+ continuous cycles of the AC's to get another shot off in the same time as without the module. How often are you doing that without a jam? My guess is NEVER. Even then, you are not actually mounting a whole other AC on your mech. You are not having to add or discard heat sinks. The only real world benefit the AC cool down module provides, is getting that extra shot in before an enemy finds cover. Or those split second moments when you're both cored in a brawl and the next shot wins.

The same cannot be said for lasers, you actually COULD mount a whole other laser in certain situations and be getting that benefit EVERY time you fire. Energy weapons live and die by HEAT. If you start adjusting that baseline with a module, they can take advantage of it on a huge scale. That's my logic

No 1: that limit also counts for alsers, escept, alsers one time reahc the heat bar at 100% not able to fire, while AC's do nerer rach it, meanign they ALWAYS can fire at the full benefit of the module.

yet, UAC cooldown is 12%, havign 6 UAC_s is UAC 30. thats now 33,6 UAC's nearly a full uac without ANY downside. yaeha nto an entire UAC, but hell, try to calculate me any mech that gets the full blast out of any energyweapon module. They don't

make a big LBX 40 direwolf, thats then lbx 44,8. So basically you save the weight for neatly a whole lbx 5 or 2 ac 2. Now try to calculate me, how a heat reduction module can save you that much nettoweight in tonnage by boosting your dps at the same tonnage? you won't find one.

So name me the ,laodout which can add a WHOLE more laser by firing it EVERY time and squeezing out 4 more constand dps. That would only work on somr heavy mechs using actually undergunned amounts of lasers, with too many heatsinks using mechs, and they will with module not be a thread. So please build me said mech and proof your logic.
a simple heat reduction like 5 % would not even be close as strong as those Ac modules.

Edited by Lily from animove, 30 October 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[EnzyteBob82]

Lily from animove, on 30 October 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

No 1: that limit also counts for alsers, escept, alsers one time reahc the heat bar at 100% not able to fire, while AC's do nerer rach it, meanign they ALWAYS can fire at the full benefit of the module.

yet, UAC cooldown is 12%, havign 6 UAC_s is UAC 30. thats now 33,6 UAC's nearly a full uac without ANY downside. yaeha nto an entire UAC, but hell, try to calculate me any mech that gets the full blast out of any energyweapon module. They don't

make a big LBX 40 direwolf, thats then lbx 44,8. So basically you save the weight for neatly a whole lbx 5 or 2 ac 2. Now try to calculate me, how a heat reduction module can save you that much nettoweight in tonnage by boosting your dps at the same tonnage? you won't find one.

So name me the ,laodout which can add a WHOLE more laser by firing it EVERY time and squeezing out 4 more constand dps. That would only work on somr heavy mechs using actually undergunned amounts of lasers, with too many heatsinks using mechs, and they will with module not be a thread. So please build me said mech and proof your logic.

If I could make any sense out of any of that, I might have something to say.

[Kain Demos]

EnzyteBob82, on 30 October 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

If I could make any sense out of any of that, I might have something to say.

It isn't too hard really.

[TercieI]

The game is much more about burst damage than sustained DPS. The cooldown modules can give you more lethal bursts. Can they get a player with bad heat management into trouble? Sure. Can they be decisive in favor of a player who knows their heat management? Yep.

[Macksheen]

I want them.

Range is, in most cases, irrelevant. Heat reduction and burn time are good, but cooldown is DPS.

Mechs that get a range increase on something like an AC5 or ERLL I feel bad for, compared to one that might get a cooldown and heat reduction ... the latter is the clear winner.