24 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

I'm starting a new topic on this instead of digging up one of the older, dead topics on this matter.

I am first and foremost a Light Pilot, specifically a Raven pilot. I've always wanted to take part in the promised Electronics Warfare and was disheartened when ECM was finally activated and found out that it was nothing more than a walking null bubble. I want ECM to be useful without being overpowered and started to play the 4X and Huginn variants over the 3L because of what ECM is.

The #1 issue with ECM in this game has always been that, as implemented, it is a combination of the null-signature system with aspects of the Angel ECM tacked on. It is the fact that people within the ECM bubble 'disappear' from radar and are unlockable (outside of a few rare circumstances).

I think that all of the components are now in place to effectively change ECM to allow it to be useful without being overpowered.

1) Remove the null-signature aspect of ECM functionality. Mechs outside of the radius of effect can target and paint Mechs as normal.

To help ECM equipped mechs maintain a role as a scout, propose that they take significantly longer to be painted on the radars(aka magic dorito appears) but they should no longer maintain perpetual radar stealth.

2) Remove the Angel functionality of the ECM bubble. Lock-on ability is no longer prevented against mechs who are within the ECM bubble.

I propose that the ECM should instead act as a form of Anti-Artemis, Anti-Targeting Computer/Command Console/Information Gathering equipment. In other words, attacking with missiles into the ECM bubble will cause an increase of missile spread on the same scale of the Artemis decrease, increase in lock-on time for missiles(again, on the same scale of the Artimis decrease), and increases the time it takes for information gathering. This way, ECM is more in keeping with the source material and maintains a level of usefulness for the group without providing a sphere of invulnerability(to missiles) like it currently does.

3) Maintain the ability to block targeting information relay from NARCs and unfriendlies who are within the ECM sphere.

It is a system that is supposed to be, first and foremost, a block on information relaying. TAG from outside of the bubble still acts as normal, TAG from inside of the bubble still acts as normal.

[Mcgral18]

Changing the Magic Jesus Box into a nearly proper Guardian ECM system?

That sounds wonderful.

[pvtjamesr]

That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection....Overruled.

Edited by pvtjamesr, 02 November 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I don't find ECM overpowered as it is and I only have one mech that I use that even mounts it.

Seriously, I don't see the issue. I mean so you have to use your Mark I eyeballs to see the enemy and target them, big fricken deal. Oh and LRM boats actually have to rely on NARC, TAG and UAVs if ECM is present, imagine that, those systems actually working as intended. I know lets nerf ECM so that there is no reason to use NARC, TAG or UAVs. I mean it just absolutely makes sense to break three things in order to "fix" one.

Seriously everyone, stop with always asking for everything to be easy mode. Games are more fun if they actually have some sort of challenge.

[Foxfire]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I don't find ECM overpowered as it is and I only have one mech that I use that even mounts it.

Seriously, I don't see the issue. I mean so you have to use your Mark I eyeballs to see the enemy and target them, big fricken deal. Oh and LRM boats actually have to rely on NARC, TAG and UAVs if ECM is present, imagine that, those systems actually working as intended. I know lets nerf ECM so that there is no reason to use NARC, TAG or UAVs. I mean it just absolutely makes sense to break three things in order to "fix" one.

Seriously everyone, stop with always asking for everything to be easy mode. Games are more fun if they actually have some sort of challenge.

Actually, I am arguing for the removal of easy mode. ECM made the game too easy, to the point in which I started piloting other variants to have an actual challenge.

At the end of the day, there really should be a more robust electronics Warfare system in this game.. and the ECM, as implemented, means that pretty much everything is centered around either BEING ECM or countering ECM.

Edited by Foxfire, 02 November 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I don't find ECM overpowered as it is and I only have one mech that I use that even mounts it.

Seriously, I don't see the issue. I mean so you have to use your Mark I eyeballs to see the enemy and target them, big fricken deal. Oh and LRM boats actually have to rely on NARC, TAG and UAVs if ECM is present, imagine that, those systems actually working as intended. I know lets nerf ECM so that there is no reason to use NARC, TAG or UAVs. I mean it just absolutely makes sense to break three things in order to "fix" one.

Seriously everyone, stop with always asking for everything to be easy mode. Games are more fun if they actually have some sort of challenge.

Well, MWO doesn't really have a challenge.

Neither does the Jesus Box. It just neuters mouting less than 50 LRMs, since you need to pay so much in terms of tonnage for them to be remotely usable, yet are still rather worthless.


Being able to use a 15 pack, without the need for TAG, BAP and Artemis would help the weapon system as a whole.

[RedDragon]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I don't find ECM overpowered as it is and I only have one mech that I use that even mounts it.

Seriously, I don't see the issue. I mean so you have to use your Mark I eyeballs to see the enemy and target them, big fricken deal. Oh and LRM boats actually have to rely on NARC, TAG and UAVs if ECM is present, imagine that, those systems actually working as intended. I know lets nerf ECM so that there is no reason to use NARC, TAG or UAVs. I mean it just absolutely makes sense to break three things in order to "fix" one.

Seriously everyone, stop with always asking for everything to be easy mode. Games are more fun if they actually have some sort of challenge.

Imagine a world in which LRMs worked as they were supposed to, i.e. no indirect fire without TAG. Then the whole ECM debate could be taken to another level.

Look at it this way. ECM is there to counter an aspect of LRM they shouldn't even have in the first place (indirect fire) while in the process making LRMs completely useless if you don't take NARC and TAG, which counter it, although ECM is actually supposed to be a counter to THEM.
Sounds kinda silly, doesn't it?

[Krivvan]

Main problem is that it turns ECM from not really necessary to not worth the weight at all.

[Foxfire]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Main problem is that it turns ECM from not really necessary to not worth the weight at all.

Depends on what you do to the hard counters. As is, I could see there being an issue with BAP remaining a hard counter, especially with the new range it will be getting to counter ECM.

[Mcgral18]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Main problem is that it turns ECM from not really necessary to not worth the weight at all.

It would still be handy for things; but no longer a necessity.

A 2-4 second LRM lock increase would be worthwhile for the carrier, cancelling of NARC beacons (attached to the ECMer or otherwise) with the 180M bubble would also be important.

There would have to be a rework of indirect fire, although direct fire might be acceptable, now that you don't need to pay the LRM tonnage taxes.

BAP would also need a rework, perhaps a sort of Seismic that lets you lock onto targets and get their loadouts without LoS for that 120/150M range without needing to stop. Which ECM, of course, would cancel, but the probe wielding mech would be aware he is being jammed.


None of those suggestions are as powerful as the Jesus Box, yet should remain useful.

[Krivvan]

Foxfire, on 02 November 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Depends on what you do to the hard counters. As is, I could see there being an issue with BAP remaining a hard counter, especially with the new range it will be getting to counter ECM.

The problem is how the ECM mainly exists to counter LRMs (not being able to target a mech isn't really a hindrance to any direct fire mechs, and they still get spotted easily) which are currently either very useless or require a ton of effort and weight to make halfway useful. Much of the equipment in the game unfortunately revolves around LRMs, yet LRMs are nullified during trading situations (enemy pokes for a second, fires, then gets back into cover before your LRMs are halfway there).

The problem is that LRMs need a rework to make them more interesting. To make them harder to use at first, yet simaltaneously increasing their skill cap and have them actually be useful at higher levels. Then we can talk about ECM and BAP and etc.

Edited by Krivvan, 02 November 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[STEF_]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I don't find ECM overpowered as it is and I only have one mech that I use that even mounts it.

Seriously, I don't see the issue. I mean so you have to use your Mark I eyeballs to see the enemy and target them, big fricken deal. Oh and LRM boats actually have to rely on NARC, TAG and UAVs if ECM is present, imagine that, those systems actually working as intended. I know lets nerf ECM so that there is no reason to use NARC, TAG or UAVs. I mean it just absolutely makes sense to break three things in order to "fix" one.

Seriously everyone, stop with always asking for everything to be easy mode. Games are more fun if they actually have some sort of challenge.

The "issue" is that in mwo ecm is used as anti-lrm system; while it is not. Anyone knows how ecm works in bt.
AND, BAP too, is not intended to work as anti-ecm....

Really I don't understand why PGi assumes the task of changing "THE RULES".
Better: I understand why: because they like the easy solutions. But easy solutions are a wrong way to solve problems.

[Krivvan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 02 November 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

The "issue" is that in mwo ecm is used as anti-lrm system; while it is not. Anyone knows how ecm works in bt.
AND, BAP too, is not intended to work as anti-ecm....

From the little I know of TT, wouldn't that just make ECM simply less useful than it is now without any other side benefit?

[Foxfire]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

The problem is how the ECM mainly exists to counter LRMs (not being able to target a mech isn't really a hindrance to any direct fire mechs, and they still get spotted easily) which are currently either very useless or require a ton of effort and weight to make halfway useful. Much of the equipment in the game unfortunately revolves around LRMs, yet LRMs are nullified during trading situations (enemy pokes for a second, fires, then gets back into cover before your LRMs are halfway there).

The problem is that LRMs need a rework to make them more interesting. To make them harder to use at first, yet simaltaneously increasing their skill cap and have them actually be useful at higher levels. Then we can talk about ECM and BAP and etc.

There is no need to address one before addressing the other, as they really are two separate issues. My concern, and why I separate the issue, is that the all encompassing power of the ECM as implemented has really stifled any ability to have information warfare that isn't centered upon Being/Countering ECM.

[Squarebasher]

ROLAND'S TREATISE ON ECM AND SENSORS


Read the above post it deals i think with a lot of things and is spot on,

Devs please consider implementing this.

[Foxfire]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

From the little I know of TT, wouldn't that just make ECM simply less useful than it is now without any other side benefit?

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

[STEF_]

Krivvan, on 02 November 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

From the little I know of TT, wouldn't that just make ECM simply less useful than it is now without any other side benefit?

From a very old topic:
http://mwomercs.com/...h-master-rules/

and let's note that the relation between ecm and bap is the opposite PGI wants to introduce.
It's not the BAP that limits ecm suite, but the opposite in bt

[Brody319]

gotta buff them LRMs even more.

The weakness of AMS and the lack of rewards for bringing ams or ECM basically means what you suggest would just further add to the LRM spam, you cant retreat to your light buddy with ECM and be safe, no you are just ****** if they get a lock, nothing you can do.
Spreading missiles would be a good idea, if they weren't raining a **** on of them constantly, just means your whole mech is going to be weak and useless by the time you even get to the fight. The least you can say now is that because they are so clustered you can get behind smaller buildings or spread the damage as you wish, rather than your entire ******* mech exploding all around you at once.

ECM is the way it is because if its changed too much it becomes useless. So till they fix AMS and give proper rewards for AMS and ECM they shouldn't touch it.

Edited by Brody319, 02 November 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[Kavoh]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I don't find ECM overpowered as it is and I only have one mech that I use that even mounts it.

Seriously, I don't see the issue. I mean so you have to use your Mark I eyeballs to see the enemy and target them, big fricken deal. Oh and LRM boats actually have to rely on NARC, TAG and UAVs if ECM is present, imagine that, those systems actually working as intended. I know lets nerf ECM so that there is no reason to use NARC, TAG or UAVs. I mean it just absolutely makes sense to break three things in order to "fix" one.

Seriously everyone, stop with always asking for everything to be easy mode. Games are more fun if they actually have some sort of challenge.

ECM doesn't provide challenge. Its an obnoxious tool that becomes mandatory because of its strength. No matter how good you do without ECM, you will do even better with it. Just because it's possible to fight it, doesn't make it any less stupid.

[Mcgral18]

Brody319, on 02 November 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

gotta buff them LRMs even more.

To be a usable weapon?

That would be nice. They are rather terribad right now.