185 replies to this topic

[Future Perfect]

No new player would be happy with using this weapon and the only people who would use it are BattleTech fans just for the reason that it exists in the tabletop game.

Spare the frustration upon droves of the new players and remove the AC/2 from existance.

[Firelizard]

They would actually be good for suppressing scout mechs, as they have the range to reach out, and the little guys cant take too many hits of any kind.

[Meldarth Sunphot]

It takes time with AC/2 to actually do any damage - but the thing about it; its got one of the longest hit ranges of any weapon; when stacked with couple more AC/2s; the damage adds up from afar....you chip away at the armor with it......

[Tadakuma]

None of the current mechs have an AC2 in their standard configuration, people will actually have to add them via mechlab so I really don't see it as an issue.

Also if you remove them then there are a couple of iconic faction mechs that won't make it into the game (the Blackjack, Jaegermech and Mauler of the top of my head).

So I say keep them in.

[KageRyuu]

Future Perfect, on 26 June 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

No new player would be happy with using this weapon and the only people who would use it are BattleTech fans just for the reason that it exists in the tabletop game.

Spare the frustration upon droves of the new players and remove the AC/2 from existance.

Ain't ever gonna happen newbie so don't even pitch a fit about it.

[Future Perfect]

KageRyuu, on 26 June 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

Ain't ever gonna happen newbie so don't even pitch a fit about it.

Everything that causes frustration for the new player should be removed from the game and that some fans wants it to remain is moot.

This is just common sense 101.

[MrMasakari]

I think they should leave them in, id quite like to see a jagermech ingame, those things were lethal when sniping you in the cockpit.

[Mchawkeye]

Not sure I understand...Surely if you don't like them of think them effective, then you don't use them? Why deny others the option? And if it is such a ****-poor gun, there is no need to be wary of it?

So...You don't use it, your opponents won't have an over powered gun...So what's the problem?

[Future Perfect]

Mchawkeye, on 26 June 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

Not sure I understand...Surely if you don't like them of think them effective, then you don't use them? Why deny others the option? And if it is such a ****-poor gun, there is no need to be wary of it?

So...You don't use it, your opponents won't have an over powered gun...So what's the problem?

The problem is the masses of new players who doesn't know the crappiness of the AC/2.

Keeping the new players happy, playing and paying is the success of MechWarrior Online.

Are you getting my point?

Edited by Future Perfect, 26 June 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[MrMasakari]

Future Perfect, on 26 June 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

The problem is the masses of new players who doesn't know how crappy they are.

Keeping the new players happy, playing and paying is the success of MechWarrior Online.

Are you getting my point?

I see your point

However I think the newbies should be allowed to judge for themselves. Some may actually find a use for them. Most If they think they are crappy will try them, and then just put on a better setup id figure. No big loss to anyone, just part of the learning curve. Just my two pence/two cents, whatever you wanna call it

[BlackAbbot]

Future Perfect, on 26 June 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

Everything that causes frustration for the new player should be removed from the game and that some fans wants it to remain is moot.

This is just common sense 101.

I agree with this. Particularly the Clans.

[Strum Wealh]

Future Perfect, on 26 June 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

No new player would be happy with using this weapon and the only people who would use it are BattleTech fans just for the reason that it exists in the tabletop game.

Spare the frustration upon droves of the new players and remove the AC/2 from existance.

This is, at best, a rather projectionist view, isn't is?

As with the previous thread of this type by another poster, it is not a case of arguing for their removal "for the sake of new players"; it is arguing for their removal because you, personally, take offence to the very existence of said weapon.

So, the more interesting - and, frankly, honest - question is: what is the actual reason why you want to see the AC-2 removed? What is it about the AC-2 that irks you so much?

----------

Also:

Future Perfect, on 26 June 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

Everything that causes frustration for the new player should be removed from the game and that some fans wants it to remain is moot.

This is just common sense 101.

Just how far are you willing to stick to your guns (pun fully intended ) on that?

Poptarting PPC/Gauss boats, hill-humping ER Large Laser boats, and leg-amputating Small Laser and Medium Laser boats have been the banes, and sources of much frustration, of players across the game generations.
Would you then just as vocally advocate the removal/non-implementation of all PPCs, all Gauss Rifles, Jump Jets, ER Large Lasers, Small Lasers, Medium Lasers, and uneven terrain?

Would you consider banning anyone who has ever played any of the previous MechWarrior games, as having to go against - and likely lose to - others with previous experience might "cause frustration for the new players"?

Surely, the folly of simply arguing that "everything that causes frustration for the new player should be removed from the game" and leaving it at that is now obvious, yes?

[Future Perfect]

Strum Wealh, on 26 June 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

This is, at best, a rather projectionist view, isn't is?

As with the previous thread of this type by another poster, it is not a case of arguing for their removal "for the sake of new players"; it is arguing for their removal because you, personally, take offence to the very existence of said weapon.

So, the more interesting - and, frankly, honest - question is: what is the actual reason why you want to see the AC-2 removed? What is it about the AC-2 that irks you so much?

If you don't believe that my concern is for the new player than thats your problem and also:


Straw man
[color=#000000]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[color=#7D7D7D]
(Redirected from Strawman)[/color]


This article is about the logical fallacy. For other uses, see Straw man (disambiguation).

"Man of straw" redirects here. For the novel by Heinrich Mann, see Der Untertan.

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.^[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.^[1][2][/color]

Edited by Future Perfect, 26 June 2012 - 04:19 AM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

i like the AC2 on light and light medium mechs for sniping at max range. if might only do a little bit of damage but that really adds up fast if the enemy cant find you. we dont know how devs are going to implament weapons into the game atm, but i would like to see all weapons included so that i at least have the choice of standing on a hill at the end of the zone to grief you in the face.

[Mchawkeye]

So your main issue is that new players might actually have to...learn...something?

What about the number of experienced players that might like the a/c2?
What about letting newbies find their own way though the game and tech; much like I, and many others, had too?

Lets not hold their hands too much. It's a big ol' universe out there, and finding your own path is one of the few true freedoms we have,.

[Future Perfect]

Mchawkeye, on 26 June 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

So your main issue is that new players might actually have to...learn...something?

What about the number of experienced players that might like the a/c2?
What about letting newbies find their own way though the game and tech; much like I, and many others, had too?

Lets not hold their hands too much. It's a big ol' universe out there, and finding your own path is one of the few true freedoms we have,.

There are no experienced players in MechWarrior Online unless you think that playing MechWarrior 4 some ten years ago makes you experienced.

[Mchawkeye]

Future Perfect, on 26 June 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

There are no experienced players in MechWarrior Online unless you think that playing MechWarrior 4 some ten years ago makes you experienced.

That is a valid point.
But I know the stats of the A/C2. I've used it on the TT. I've used it in some other games. I understand he nature of it, and by the sounds of it, MWO will run pretty close to the TT style.
This puts me (I would think) at least slightly more educated about the weapon than many others who will come along and play the game without any fore knowledge.
But, of course, there is a chance that MWO may alter the weapon to make it more useful, in which case I will happily change my mind. This is rationality, not religion.
Which couldn't happen if we arbitrarily remove the gun from the game.
Will I give it a go in MWO? sure, of course. Do I expect to think it useful? Doubtful. But you never know.
And without it in the game, you could never know.

[Strum Wealh]

Future Perfect, on 26 June 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

If you don't believe that my concern is for the new player than thats your problem and also:


Straw man


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Redirected from Strawman)


This article is about the logical fallacy. For other uses, see Straw man (disambiguation).

"Man of straw" redirects here. For the novel by Heinrich Mann, see Der Untertan.

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.^[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.^[1][2]

I'm quite aware of to what "straw man" refers, and there is no such thing in my post.

The link to the previous thread was intended to be read, as the same arguments for the removal of the AC-2 (and all of the other "small guns") in the name of "simplification" and "balance" are as flawed now as they were four months ago, and the rebuttals posted in response to those arguments are as valid today as they were four months ago.

Also, consider:

• If the AC-2 (either singly or in a group) is ineffective, few if any players will ever use them. New players who engage the community (if even by only skimming the forums) will learn of their ineffectiveness and the AC-2 will continue to sit generally unused. New players who do not engage the community will learn on their own and gravitate to those weapons that were used effectively against them.
  
• If the AC-2 (either singly or in a group) is overly-effective (to the point that it is used near-exclusively by a majority of the playerbase), then the Devs will likely make some adjustment to its stats to bring it more in-line with its intended role(s) and relative effectiveness.
  
• If the AC-2 (either singly or in a group) is properly-balanced (relative to the other weapons) from the start, then it is simply one of many viable options that new players can explore, and they can determine for themselves whether it suits their personal tastes. For some, it will suit their tastes and they will happily continue to use it. For others, it will not suit their tastes and they will move on to explore other options.

So, no, "but it's for the sake of the new players!" is still not, in and of itself, a sufficient argument for completely removing the AC-2 (or other "smaller weapons") from the game.

So, again, what is the real reason behind why you want to see the AC-2 removed from the game?

[Outrider01]

Future Perfect, on 26 June 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

This is just common sense 101.

Common sense is usually some whiner that says "Yeah, it sucks hard." but doesn't accept the fact that it can be made useful. Lets see....developers go "AC/2 now has 50% chance to cause crit damage" or "AC/2 does not break camo" assuming something similar to WoT or "AC/2 gains 75% accuracy at long range so it has no to-hit roll during gun phase checks, cause when you want to hit a fly sitting on the viewport of an enemy mech nothing says HELLO!!!! like a hit to your cockpit". This is examples of what can be done to make the weapon useful, not saying they are going to do that or it needs some OP like ability given to it...just that something can be done to make it useful instead of arbitrarily removing it since its so useless...might as well already start a soapbox bandwagon to remove the clan ER PPC cause we all know how OP that is vs an AC/Ultra/LBX variant 2 cause it renders all other longrange weapons moot beyond the Large Pulse (high accuracy, 1/3 less damage and heat as well as slightly less range as the clan ER PPC but no ammo constraints like the AC/2)

Edited by Outrider01, 26 June 2012 - 05:09 AM.

[Future Perfect]

The real reason: it's crap so remove it.