432 replies to this topic

[s0hno]

Hi Mechwarriors,

I am concerned about high LRM boating in pug drops. It's ok to have 1 or max 2 LRM boats per game with some support launchers equipped, but at this time, it feels like 4 or more mechs per team use LRMs as the primary weapon system.

Edit1:
Personally, I don't consider LRMs to be op. In pugs, however, boating heavily puts the suppressed team in a defending position, since coordinating is difficult, and countermeasures like AMS or ECM are not adjustable nor distributed evenly.

The suggestion is to introduce/improve countermeasures, such as the AMS.

There are many posts around with suggestions how to handle the situation:
- AMS rewards
- Introduce laser driven AMS
- prohibit massive LRM usage by increased heat generation
- LRM usage adjustments (LOS -> Line-Of-Sight dependent etc.)
- adjust challenges in way that does not advantage LRMs
- new modules
- PPC sensor distruption
etc.

I like all the ideas, but since there are a lot of discussions and implementing all possibilities at once would be overcompensating, I want to know your opinion which seems most appropriate.

Edit2:
Sorry for the forced vote on option 2, I assumed that one can vote on option 1 without the second one. Unfortunately, the poll has been moved here from the suggestion section and is not editable any more.

Edit3:
I learned interesting things by this topic and poll:

1. LRM is a critical issue. Only few seem neutral, most are either pro-LRM or con-LRM.
2. Many people think there are too many LRMs. But not many enough to justify significant changes.
3. Most people are pro AMS rewards
4. Also improving AMS, adjust flight trajectory and the LOS option have many advocates (leaving out the bias)

Since any further "discussion" is rather dependent on personal opinions and emotions, I'd suggest we keep it cool from here and let the developers decide what happens with the next update.

And, whatever goddamn weapon system you prefer ( ),
good hunt

Greetings

Edited by s0hno, 27 November 2014 - 09:15 AM.

[MechWarrior679696]

LRMs are a problem, mainly due to the combination of quirks which have given LRM boats a whole new steroid injection and the ECM nerfs. We now see Light- and fast Medium wolfpacks whose only job appears to be locking up single targets toward the edge of the enemy group, and then never letting the locks go and permanently spotting exposed mechs for harassment and destruction in detail. Nerfing the damage of the missiles or re-boosting ECM though, are both bad ideas. If we have no LRM damage potential, we have no counter to the Assault roflstomp, and if ECM is re-boosted then we'll just get D-DC hugbears and steamrolls all over again.

My vote goes toward either improving AMS, lowering LRM rates of fire, or both. I have also earlier proposed that PPCs could be given the ability to disrupt locking mechanics and/or disrupting sensor range, which would create a skill-based mechanic for countering missile boats, since PPCs do take a bit of skill to use effectively and since the effective ranges of the weapons kinda coincide.

[Telmasa]

I don't think you'd see so many LRM-boaters if currently wonky hit registration didn't make using lasers and/or autocannons feel so much more difficult.

[s0hno]

Maybe your right and it's not the amount of lrms, but missing possibilities to counter them. At this time, it is - besides taking cover ofc - ECM and AMS.
There are plenty of ways to counter ECM (BAP, counter-ECM, tag, narc);
AMS is rather ineffective assuming it is not mounted on several 'Mechs, which is the case in most pug drops. Consequently, you are forced to take cover most of the game if two or more boats are in the enemy team, which is exhausting/tedious.

Mr Huge, on 24 November 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

I have also earlier proposed that PPCs could be given the ability to disrupt locking mechanics and/or disrupting sensor range, which would create a skill-based mechanic for countering missile boats, since PPCs do take a bit of skill to use effectively and since the effective ranges of the weapons kinda coincide.

I like that idea, since it offers a way to actively counter LRM suppression fire. I voted for it in your thread and added it here as an option. (Although the LRM issue seems not to bother that many people atm).

This would only count for PPC carrying mechs, so I'd also be happy about further possible countermeasures.

Edited by s0hno, 24 November 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[Kalimaster]

Has this subject not been beaten to death already. We need to focus on items such as new building models and other subjects that will add to the game. The subject of LRM's, cannons, and PPC's has come up so many times it is not even funny. Then there is TAG, ECM, and NARC. The weapons are balanced.

This subject has come up so many times that it is not even funny and is for many players, including my self, a sore spot. Look back into the back pages and you will be surprised at just how many "want to nerf" or get rid of posts there are. It is nothing short of annoying whenever another post to Nerf a weapon, or get rid of a map comes up.

[s0hno]

I've read through many pages and did not find a nerf request for lrms. Also, this is not a request to nerf lrms. read the topic before hating please.

Also, even if the topic came up as often as you claim, it just shows that many players are not happy how lrms work at the moment. (Btw, competitive leagues like MBO banned lrms/restricted usage from tournament games for a long time)
But I get it that you like playing lrms and would not like it if more countermeasures were available.

Edited by s0hno, 24 November 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[Nightmare1]

As an anti-LRM pilot, I have to admit that they feel pretty well balanced at this moment and do not require a nerf. The main problem arises when people spam LRM boats during weekend challenges. The best way to counter this, I think, is with AMS rewards and/or a direct buff to AMS effectiveness.

The issue, then, is quantity rather than quality. The quality is perfectly fine and does not need to be degraded while the quantity is a cyclical problem centered on the challenges. A soft counter that does not nerf LRMs may be to implement challenges requiring the use of certain weapon systems. For example, a "Flaming Fun!" challenge may require the use of flamers for scoring purposes, while a "Pulsing Perfection!" challenge may only allow the use of Pulse Lasers. "Gauss, Gauss, Goose!" could be a Gauss Rifle Challenge, while "Banzai Ballistics!" would necessitate ballistic weaponry. All of these would obviously result in the spam of other weapon types, some laughably (Flamers and MGs come to mind), but at least it would be better than incessant LRM'ing.

[Dremlinn]

Leave missiles alone Use cover and modules, and do not cry!

[GentlemanBryan]

LRMs are fine.

[LauLiao]

There aren't actually that many LRM boats out there. I see on average 0-2 per game. What I think you're misinterpreting is the prevalence of LRMs on Clan mechs. A LOT of clan mechs field one or two LRM launchers because they are incredibly cheap for clan mechs in terms of tonnage and crit slots. So when you have 6 Clan mechs on a team and they all have one or two launchers as a supplimental weapon, it can seem like you're facing an army of LRM boats when in fact you are not.

Mr Huge also touched on another issue: ECM changes. Ever since they buffed BAP/AP, I see very little ECM on the battlefield. I think a lot of players who were fielding ECM have abandoned it because they feel like it's not doing them any good anymore, but it's still one of the more effective defences against LRMs at range.

[Helmer]

Moving to General Discussion as this is not a feature suggestion per se.


Cheers.

[Fishbulb333]

LRMS are fine, except on the rare occasion you get narced on a map with very little cover and there's no friendly ECM nearby...in which case, tough luck..

Edited by Fishbulb333, 25 November 2014 - 05:07 PM.

[Mcgral18]

This is serious business, and needs a poll.


A poll in Gen Disc is weird.

[mogs01gt]

LRMs should be buffed.


But the only time I have ever felt LRMs to be an issue is piloting slow mechs. The problem is, slower mechs have the most damage and armor, LRMs are one of the safest ways to deal with mechs that will kill you the moment you step around a corner.

High armor and damage mechs cant have it both ways since we only have team death match as game modes. IMO if we had different game modes, people wouldnt complain so much about LRMs.


Also, ECM still exists which makes LRMs useless.

Edited by mogs01gt, 25 November 2014 - 05:19 PM.

[Dauntless Blint]

It's about right,just would like to see more people use AMS on mass,or possibly some thing new like the last voting option I think angles are ok Clan has more direct fire dps, IS has more indirect to make up for it in imo,not that I think it does.
If you get stomped by a competitive group and it looked like enough to blot out the sun then they probably focused fire to great effect and you can't nerf that.Learn how to support your team or take cover and avoid wide open spaces until you know what your up against thank's to your scout's/ecm/fast mechs,always have a path of retreat or cover to run to.

[Abivard]

Bias polled aimed at the underhive, what a novel approach.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Ugh, four nerfs in a row and people still say they are too much. And most of them want them gone period. And do not want to hear anything about table top of battletech while calling for it to be gone.

Frankly I didn't even bother with the last challenge because of all this nerf nerf nerf stuff. And when am not running lurms in my griffin. I take out my dual guass jager all the while getting more damage and easy kills in it. Even though that is supposed to be the more skill option.

Beyond sick and tired of the nerfherding twitch shooter wanna-be's trying to destroy this game by removing one pillar of it all together and making this just another COD knock off. with less to it.


I hate to say learn to play. But this long running ongoing fight to destroy lurms altogether is just grinding on my nerves as this is the only CW we have right now. And frankly has turned me off of this game even more than the constant drop, kill 12 guys. Rinse and repeat that is all the game play we have right now.

[Jin Ma]

remove or reduce IS LRM Min range. Nerf damage

[Abivard]

This is beyond a simple bias in the poll, if you do not answer that LRM's need some kind of nerf your vote simply is not counted.

[Prussian Havoc]

LRMs are a crucial portion of the game.

Alongside direct fire weapons, indirect fire weapons need to be equally represented.

Both families of systems should be capable of winning a march if utilized correctly.

Marginalized or "nerf" one to the exclusion of the other and gameplay loses it's tactical diversity.


Rewards are an excellent way to shape gameplay. Categories of AMS rewards would be an excellent market based approach to adding an acceptable variable into the Direct Fire / Indirect Fire equation.

Excellent OP!
(But you should add an option to the second question for those who answered "No" to the your first question.)