180 replies to this topic

[John Hartson]

I started this topic not only because I saw the leaked beta footage. It is something that already came to my mind when i saw the Mechlab-Video which was released by PGI.

The Hunchback in the video has 320 points of armor. A Hunchback has only 160 points of armor in the Table Top game.

For one ton of AC/20 Ammo the Hunchback got 5 rounds in the video. It is the same amount in the Table Top game.

So you're supposed shoot off the double amount of armor with the standard amount of ammo.

Same problem for a Catapult. You can no longer do your job as a support mech after firing 8 volleys with your LRMs. You don't know if your missiles hit anything and if they hit someone you have to punch through double armor.

Tell me what you think! Less Armor? More Ammo? No changes?

[Phasics]

how bout we actually wait to play on the 7th of Aug and see if this is even an issue first ?

[Zergling]

If armor is increased above Btech levels, then ammo really needs to be increased aswell.

This was a problem with ammunition using weapons in MechWarrior 2: Mercs; weapons damage was dropped across the board in that game. but ammo per ton remained the same, and it led to most weapons running out of ammo before inflicting significant damage to enemy mechs.

[JohnKronic]

I believe having the choice to have extra ammo, would be viable, tactical, and straight fun.

[GoreChild]

...Or you could shed some of that 'double' armour and grab more ammo for the freed up tonnage. I think i'm in the "Wait and see" -camp

[skamage]

More ammo or double the damage on the weapon.

[Jason Phoenix]

I am very happy to see that some ppl are actually looking in the details of things...

Just think how many Tons of Ammo a Catapult would need to carry around to do a good Support Role if Armor were doubled and Ammo would not.

Spoiler

To give a small Hint, we are talking of over 8T of Ammo, meaning bye bye Medium Lazers

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

You are jumping to conclusions before you can actually see test results. I'm sure they are balancing weapons vs armor. If they increased the armor value above normal, then it was probably because it was underpowered or too weak.

[John Hartson]

Phasics, on 27 June 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

how bout we actually wait to play on the 7th of Aug and see if this is even an issue first ?

Of course we can wait. ... But we are here to talk and speculate about the game, cause we can't wait for the game to be released. Your point makes talking about the game seem pointless, which it is not.

[skamage]

Again like others have said, wait and see. They'll tune it more since it is still in beta.

[Lycaonis]

It actually makes perfect sense to increase armor values without increasing ammo allotments. MW: Firestorm does it too even. It is an attempt to balance the relative ease of putting shots on the same location when played as a FPS/Sim vs the randomness of table top to hit charts and dice rolls.

[zencynic]

Bluten, on 27 June 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

You are jumping to conclusions before you can actually see test results. I'm sure they are balancing weapons vs armor. If they increased the armor value above normal, then it was probably because it was underpowered or too weak.

I disagree sir. All the Dev released videos I can recall have show double armor, with no modification to weapon damage or ammo/ton.

More often than not, I am also in the 'wait and see' camp. On this particular topic, I am comfortable asking a few questions.

This is actually useful information right now. Odd considering the game is in closed beta, but true.

Elite Founders are choosing their Mech. The premise of the Catapult is LRM based fire support. The answer to this question is the difference between scratching an opposing Mech and seriously damaging it.

[Black Butterfly]

John Hartson, on 27 June 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

For one ton of AC/20 Ammo the Hunchback got 5 rounds in the video. It is the same amount in the Table Top game.

So you're supposed shoot off the double amount of armor with the standard amount of ammo.

In the Hunchie vid he had 10 rounds of AC20 ammo. How do you know that he was carrying an extra ton? I didn't notice it in the mech bay. Could it be that the AC20 now comes with 10 rounds as standard?

Edit:
Just watched the mechlab vid again... 5 rounds per ton as OP stated

Edited by Black Butterfly, 27 June 2012 - 05:32 AM.

[Phasics]

John Hartson, on 27 June 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Of course we can wait. ... But we are here to talk and speculate about the game, cause we can't wait for the game to be released. Your point makes talking about the game seem pointless, which it is not.

there's a difference between discussing general ideas and specific aspects.

Talking about how ballistic weapons need to be considered when altering armor values sure talk away.

Saying double ammo if you double armor is specific and requires in-game information we don't have, so impossible to have any meaningful discussion about it.

[AlanEsh]

Lycaonis, on 27 June 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

It actually makes perfect sense to increase armor values without increasing ammo allotments. MW: Firestorm does it too even. It is an attempt to balance the relative ease of putting shots on the same location when played as a FPS/Sim vs the randomness of table top to hit charts and dice rolls.

Perhaps, applying this penalty to ammo using weapons doesn't affect lasers one whit, so on the surface it looks like a ding against ammo weapons.

[Dexion]

My worry isnt so much with the AC10 and 20.. You can aim those. Lrm and Srm will still spread there damage, which worries me a bit.

[Voyager I]

Lycaonis, on 27 June 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

It actually makes perfect sense to increase armor values without increasing ammo allotments. MW: Firestorm does it too even. It is an attempt to balance the relative ease of putting shots on the same location when played as a FPS/Sim vs the randomness of table top to hit charts and dice rolls.

No, to achieve that end you double the armor values without increasing the damage per shot, so you need to hit any given location twice as many times for the same result.

The problem, of course, is that this messes up a bunch of other factors. Now missle and ballistic oriented mechs might struggle to kill one opponent without running dry, and mechs with heat profiles that were pushing the limits of tolerable before are liable to find themselves running out of stamina in what should be an ordinary fight.


I'm not saying it's a bad idea, because I don't particularly want this game to become a contest of seeing who can deliver the biggest center torso alpha strikes, but you have to consider all the effects of a big change like that.

Edited by Voyager I, 27 June 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[Phasics]

Ok so lets quadruple the armor, increase the ROF of energy weapons by 200% decrease the heat buildup by one quarter, double the number of rounds of ammo in 1 ton, increase the ballistics ROF by 100% and then double the damage of ammo based weapons

[John Hartson]

Black Butterfly, on 27 June 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

In the Hunchie vid he had 10 rounds of AC20 ammo. How do you know that he was carrying an extra ton? I didn't notice it in the mech bay. Could it be that the AC20 now comes with 10 rounds as standard?

The Hunchback in the developer video has two tons of ammo for the AC/20 in the left torso.

[Cid]

i guess they simply want the fights to last longer, so armor values got doubled.

unless ammo gets doubled as well we are probably going to see a lot of energy weapon stacking.