48 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

With the King Crab we saw something that could become a huge problem later on if it continues.
Power Creeping.

If PGI releases future IS mechs and balances them by looking at the clan mechs, you will see a lot of chassis not being used at all.

For example if they released say the Black Knight mech.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Knight
If they gave this mechs the hardpoint numbers and general balance of the Timberwolf, we would see almost all other IS heavies be abandoned.

This isn't about the balance of the Clan mechs vs IS mechs, this is just about IS mechs in general. If PGI continues to balance new IS mechs by looking at "holy trinity" a lot of IS mechs will get trashed.

I know a lot of people will just pout and say "yea but clans still OP so its only fair that IS gets broken mechs!1!1!!". But really I don't want to see every IS mech except 1 in each weight class just thrown away. which is why we should totally buff the summoner, clan lights, ice ferret, and nova.

[Myke Pantera]

Well... Yes and no. From the Man-O'-War package only the Hellbringer is top, but not better than the Timber, the other 3 are different to what the clans had, and hopefully fun, but certainly not better. The same will go for the Resistance Mechs. Panter won't be top tier. Enforcer won't be the new king of IS mediums either. Grasshopper looks pretty good to me, but is somewhat hindered by low mounted Hardpoints, but will still be a good Mech. Zeus won't be best in class either. They will all fit in well without being DOA or OP, I think.

You are right that the KingCrab is a damn good mech, but the IS really needed a good answer to the Direwhale, but this is not the norm.

The Quirks however introduced quite some powercreep, but not enough to break the game, but they need to be careful on that end, I agree.

[Brody319]

Myke Pantera, on 21 December 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Well... Yes and no. From the Man-O'-War package only the Hellbringer is top, but not better than the Timber, the other 3 are different to what the clans had, and hopefully fun, but certainly not better. The same will go for the Resistance Mechs. Panter won't be top tier. Enforcer won't be the new king of IS mediums either. Grasshopper looks pretty good to me, but is somewhat hindered by low mounted Hardpoints, but will still be a good Mech. Zeus won't be best in class either. They will all fit in well without being DOA or OP, I think.

You are right that the KingCrab is a damn good mech, but the IS really needed a good answer to the Direwhale, but this is not the norm.

The Quirks however introduced quite some powercreep, but not enough to break the game, but they need to be careful on that end, I agree.

I'm not saying the next IS package will contain the broken mechs. the mech after that or any new IS mechs announced might be the ones that create the trend.

[Mercules]

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

I'm not saying the next IS package will contain the broken mechs. the mech after that or any new IS mechs announced might be the ones that create the trend.

Or maybe the mech after that... or the one after that.


How about if we worry about it if it happens and not believe that one mech being better is a "trend". Trends require multiple data points just by their definition.

[SpeedingBus]

PGI keeps releasing crappy clan mechs because they can't afford to give clans any more OP mechs. Seriously the gargoyle is case and point with the stupid speed they gave it made it so its weapon arrangement suck or it would just be a timber but on steroids.

[Brody319]

SpeedingBus, on 21 December 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

PGI keeps releasing crappy clan mechs because they can't afford to give clans any more OP mechs. Seriously the gargoyle is case and point with the stupid speed they gave it made it so its weapon arrangement suck or it would just be a timber but on steroids.

Or you know..they followed lore and those mechs have never really been good in the first place...

[Mudhutwarrior]

So far its pretty rare for a crab to come out on top of a dire. I drive both and If it comes down to it the Dire wins.

[Kirkland Langue]

Let's go ahead and speculate upon the Quirks that the TDR-5S-T will get.

It will load 1 LL in the RA, and 4 MLs in each torso. It seems like a likely candidate for a Thunderbolt Hero, built off of the 5S. In order to justify that much laser firepower - one would guess that it gets ML -Heat Gen. It'd be nice to get a duration quirk too.

Anyone have speculations upon what the quirk %'s might be? (any proper discussion of Power Creep should be rooted in speculation about future releases, TDR gained in so much popularity with the quirk set, and because TDR has no Hero Mech - it seems like a good candidate to get a Hero mech soon, especially if PGI is looking for some cash.)

[Raggedyman]

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

With the King Crab we saw something that could become a huge problem later on if it continues.
Power Creeping.

If PGI releases future IS mechs and balances them by looking at the clan mechs, you will see a lot of chassis not being used at all.

Yes, this is correct. Because the older mechs and tech become old and less effective in the field, with the new stuff being stronger, harder, better and faster as the technology improves. It's exactly how it worked in the table top, so i don't have a major problem with it as long as it's gradual and the old tech goes down in price as it's slowly outclassed.

[Khzorran]

Mudhutwarrior, on 21 December 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

So far its pretty rare for a crab to come out on top of a dire. I drive both and If it comes down to it the Dire wins.

A smart Direwolf pilot knows not to hang around in front of a king crab for long. its PPFLD is far superior to almost anything you can put on any clan mech.
I have yet to lose a single 1v1 in my crab vs any direwolf due to duel AC 20's

[Brody319]

Raggedyman, on 21 December 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yes, this is correct. Because the older mechs and tech become old and less effective in the field, with the new stuff being stronger, harder, better and faster as the technology improves. It's exactly how it worked in the table top, so i don't have a major problem with it as long as it's gradual and the old tech goes down in price as it's slowly outclassed.

If the Clan's release was any clue I doubt it will be slowly, more just obliterated from existence in one patch.

[SpeedingBus]

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

Or you know..they followed lore and those mechs have never really been good in the first place...

PGI only follows lore when it suits them. I am sorry if the lore dictates that X mech sucks you don't keep it like that for your game... you make adjustments to do otherwise it would be complete idiocy. Go look at tank games with Tiger tank they don't keep it the same so literally no one can kill... they make adjustments.

[Brody319]

SpeedingBus, on 21 December 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

PGI only follows lore when it suits them. I am sorry if the lore dictates that X mech sucks you don't keep it like that for your game... you make adjustments to do otherwise it would be complete idiocy. Go look at tank games with Tiger tank they don't keep it the same so literally no one can kill... they make adjustments.

Exactly. Which is why we need to buff the Summoner, Gargoyle, All the clan lights, Nova, and Ice ferret. But every time we bring up those mechs the first thing people respond with is ususally "No, Clans need more nerfs, as long as the TImberwolf, Direwolf and Stormcrow are good we just need to keep nerfing the clans!"

[Sjorpha]

Due to how competitive meta works, the standard of power is inevitably set by the most powerful option in each category.

Under the assumption that a balanced game is the design goal, the balance approach essentially has two options:
1. increase the power of other options to approach the most powerful.
2. decrease the power of the most powerful option.

So the King crab is following option 1 but it is still not quite as powerful as a Dire. (I'm using "power" as a catchall term here, so it can represent different aspects of efficiency.)

Essentially the only way to avoid IS power creep is to nerf clans, you have to choose either one or a bit of both.

[Brody319]

Sjorpha, on 21 December 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Due to how competitive meta works, the standard of power is inevitably set by the most powerful option in each category.

Under the assumption that a balanced game is the design goal, the balance approach essentially has two options:
1. increase the power of other options to approach the most powerful.
2. decrease the power of the most powerful option.

So the King crab is following option 1 but it is still not quite as powerful as a Dire. (I'm using "power" as a catchall term here, so it can represent different aspects of efficiency.)

Essentially the only way to avoid IS power creep is to nerf clans, you have to choose either one or a bit of both.

Blanket Nerfs never work. They just render entire chassis even more useless. To the point where no one will pilot them even as a joke.

[Mercules]

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Exactly. Which is why we need to buff the Summoner, Gargoyle, All the clan lights, Nova, and Ice ferret. But every time we bring up those mechs the first thing people respond with is ususally "No, Clans need more nerfs, as long as the TImberwolf, Direwolf and Stormcrow are good we just need to keep nerfing the clans!"

To be fair a few people bring that up. The majority agree with you that several of the Clan chassis are not where they should be. Typically we disagree on how to get them there other than quirks... which will be coming. We might as well wait until PGI makes a quirk pass at the lower tier Clan mechs before trying to fix them through some other way.

[The Boz]

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

With the King Crab we saw something that could become a huge problem later on if it continues.
Power Creeping.

Yes. Because the King Crab is the first instance of power creep ever seen in this game.

[Chagatay]

SpeedingBus, on 21 December 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

PGI keeps releasing crappy clan mechs because they can't afford to give clans any more OP mechs. Seriously the gargoyle is case and point with the stupid speed they gave it made it so its weapon arrangement suck or it would just be a timber but on steroids.

But Gargoyle isn't bad. For CW it is IDEAL as the frontal assault! Matches the speed of the horde and provides heavy armor. Helps that it is smaller than most assaults as well with good hit boxes. Almost like a clan speedy atlas (not much in the way of weapons but has a solid place on the battle line).

It is almost paradoxal at least for assault mechs between normal matches and CW.

Edited by Chagatay, 21 December 2014 - 02:17 PM.

[SweetJackal]

The King Crab isn't a good case of Power Creep. It does one thing really really well, Brawling. It can tank and spread damage really well and deal a lot of damage to the face at short ranges.

Even that has to be on level ground though. In any environment that the KGC is trying to fight that has his targets on a higher plane the KGC is effectively neutered due to it's low slung arms and massive profile when viewed from above. This also allows any mech that has jump jets a short reprieve from a KGC's brawling attack by simply lifting off.

Power Creep started with the CTF-3D and was joined by the Victors, Highlanders and arguably the Shads. Said power creep has actually leveled out though as chassis with more glaring weaknesses were given better strengths through quirks meaning the distance between the best and worst chassis has significantly narrowed.

More over we now have the release of a true objective game mode with limited respawns and that has changed the face of just what it means to be strong and good. Role warfare is being created by the players as we target the objective, create strategies and employ tactics to something other than Deathmatch.

Edited by SuckyJack, 21 December 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Brody319]

Chagatay, on 21 December 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

But Gargoyle isn't bad. For CW it is IDEAL as the frontal assault! Matches the speed of the horde and provides heavy armor. Helps that it is smaller than most assaults as well with good hit boxes. Almost like a clan speedy atlas (not much in the way of weapons but has a solid place on the battle line).

I enjoy the Gargoyle quite a bit. Though you can't really play it like an assault with lots of big guns and lots of armor, gotta play it more like a medium...which is a trend that affects way to many clan mechs.