43 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

The Summoner invokes a whole host of nostalgia if one had the chance to play some of the older Mechwarrior games. It's always been a unique chassis, with a cockpit that is a bit offset and the memorable missile rack that accompanies it. It's not hard to imagine these things when it was going to be added in MWO...but reality set in. The omnipod rules that have hampered the Nova (and the Mist Lynx) became just as prominent here. The bigger reality is that limited omnipod options and limited understanding of the deficiencies of the mech that has left people wanting more... While the mech is serviceable, its limitations remind us that all mechs (Clan or IS) are not made equal... so let's explore this venerable chassis.

Since all things are nicely done in 3s, I will break this down into 3 sections.

1) Omnipods - I get to do whaaaaaaaa?
2) How it plays - Hey, it's a Thunderbolt?!?!
3) The Future - One Omnipod To Suck Less With - The Summoner has 100 Problems, Speed is Not One of Them

1) Omnipods - "Look Ma, No Arms" redux

Given how the CT (no special features), Head (consumed by FF fixed slot), and Legs (locked on JJs) have nothing of note, the primary focus will be on the arms. However, the importance of the arms are actually highlighted by the torso weapons... so let's start there first...


Left Torso:
Summoner-Prime - 1M (20 tubes), +5 Torso Twist Yaw
Summoner-B - 1M (20 tubes), 1AMS
Summoner-D - 1B, 1AMS

The choice between the Prime and the B's Left Torso is simple... the question you have to be asking yourself is that AMS that important? Note that the missile torso is always on this side, thus increasing the hitboxes. However, using NARC on that torso really reduces your missile rack profile immensely... which is most notable when you're looking at the stock Summoner-B build.

Right Torso:
Summoner-Prime - none, +5 Torso Twist Yaw
Summoner-B - none, +5 Torso Twist Yaw
Summoner-D - 1B, 1AMS

If you like symmetry, the Summoner-D can accommodate you. However... as I'll explain later... this becomes very difficult to make use of. Otherwise, your options torsowise is really limited to the Left Torso... which makes the Right Torso the "shield side of choice".. but that isn't that obvious quite yet... so let's look at the arms.


Left Arm:
Summoner-Prime - 1B, 10% Ballistic Cooldown
Summoner-B - 2M (10x2 tubes)
Summoner-D - 2E

The thing about symmetry is that you need arms that on the same level. However, it's more "similar" to a Kitfox where one arm is higher up than the other. That's the difference. The Left Arm of the Summoner is higher than the Right Arm... and to some extent this may be disorienting because the cockpit view is from the right side, thus limiting the firing view to a degree.

The problem with the ballistic slot on the Prime is that it's still LOWER than the ballistic hardpoints in the torso. That's what makes this hardpoint undesirable. Your choices otherwise are between the B's missile hardpoints or the D's energy hardpoints. Going halfway on this makes the mech a Stormcrow on JJs... and that's still a disappointment when you're 15 tons larger.

Of course, the bonus velocity feels kinda out of place and far less useful than it should be.


Right Arm:
Summoner-Prime - 1E, 10% Energy Cooldown
Summoner-B - 2M (10x2 tubes)
Summoner-D - 2E

Besides the obvious symmetry in terms of hardpoints, the Prime's hardpoint option feels out of place. Yes, cooldown is helpful if you wanted to go 4 CERMEDs to 3 CERMEDs, but despite having 4 built in DHS in the 350XL engine, your energy options are quite limited, if not disappointing. Energy heat reduction would probably be more helpful honestly.

Now, when we put these things altogether... you almost get the feeling you are a Stormcrow on JJs except a tad bloated....

Let's look at the mech in practice...

2) Hitboxes and Performance - "A Disappointing Thunderbolt"

I've said before that the Thunderbolt BEFORE the quirks was a solid mech, but it was mediocre for the general population as it didn't stand out compared to the Cataphract at the time. The Thunderbolt was actually DURABLE due to the fact you could use the arms as shields in addition to torso twisting. The only issue is that it wasn't XL friendly... Since the Summoner has a Clan XL engine, that would solve everything right? Nothing is that simple and in this case, Clan XL doesn't actually solve what ails it.

Besides the tonnage required to mount a really large XL engine, this is compounded with the use of Ferro Fibrous armor as that isn't really going to save much tonnage. That and hardlocked JJs (5 tons, 5 crits committed) that are solely locked into the legs and CT, you only get generally 20 tons to work with. This is really bad when the mech has torso options that are primarily ballistic in nature.

I had just realized (while writing this post) that the stock Gargoyle-Prime build could actually be run on this mech... utilizing the greatest advantage of the ballistic torso being so high up. Of course, this says more about the Gargoyle as a mech than it does the Summoner. On the other hand, the Gargoyle has more energy hardpoints... which is a serious deficiency on the Summoner.

What makes this worse is when you come to the realization that the PRIMARY area of where the weapons are on the arms. Having discussed the Nova, Mist Lynx, and Ice Ferret previously, you know that lacking torso weapon options really limits a mech's potential. If you put the primary focus on the ballistic torsos, you are simply are at an ammo count timer. Using the arms as the primary source of firepower unfortunately limits the use of the arm as a shield... a very important characteristic of having large arms. It's difficult to protect yourself if the arms are the source of your firepower... see Trebuchet, Kintaro, and even the Dragon.

The other issue the Summoner suffers is what I usually refer to as the "Quickdraw syndrome". While the Summoner is not scaled improperly (fortunately), using JJs tends to attract attention to the legs. You are almost required to max out armor on the legs for that reason. 5 JJs doesn't help the cause though, which increases exposure to the area that needs quite of bit of protection (just like the Mist Lynx and Nova). So, it's hard to make the most of the JJs at times, w/o getting legged through incidental contact.

Once you get all of the deficiencies out of the way, you can honestly get a few builds working if you have some decent skills. When I mean "few", I mean like 3 or so.... due to the non-use of Endo. There is an omnipod that will correct a few deficiencies, but ultimately will not put the Summoner into a better state...

Addendum: Based on the obvious hardpoints, using the right side of the mech as a shield is very much optimal... the higher left arm mount with the left torso weapons pretty much tell you all you need to know...

3) The Future - That Omnipod Can't Come Fast Enough - "Unlucky" 7 Changes This Mech Needs

Trudging through the data is found the existence of an energy hardpoint in the Left Torso... which is what the Summoner-M has access to. The omnipod is 1E and 1M, so it'll probably not gain any bonuses. This omnipod is significant for 3 types of builds...

1) If you wanted to commit to a missile boat of some sort, but wanted to keep an energy hardpoint w/o losing the missile hardpoints to energy, this is the only way of accomplish it. Unfortunately, this only makes the Summoner "on par" with the Stormcrow while the Stormcrow has a better distribution of the hardpoints...

2) ERPPC+Gauss is still a thing (well, not so much at times), and this allows for maximizing the ineffective Summoner-Prime arms for boosts. High mounted hardpoints, especially in the torso are really valuable, but this has only a niche space.

3) Something like a ERPPC+4CERMED as an energy dependent build would be possible. You could do something similar to that on a Nova (generally with 1 CERMED less)... but... it's a Nova. Trying to accomplish that build on the current Summoner as currently constituted is ultimately gambling with the "look ma, no arms" mantra... so this omnipod change will allow for one reasonable potential avenue that wasn't available before.

In any case.. that doesn't ultimately fix what ails the Summoner. I'll simply give 7 options on the table... if only to hold out hope.

1) Buff Leg Armor (Structure or External) - Since the hardlocked JJs cause some of the problems, it needs to be reinforced. Optional side boosts would involve increasing the JJ lift or fuel or just simply increase the threshold for fall damage on the mech. A buff of at least 15% external armor would probably be a good starting point (9 pts).

2) Buff Arms (Stucture or External) - Similar to the armor buffs on the Gargoyle and Hellbringer, the arms really do need this since they are the PRIMARY damage dealing sections on the mech. The buff needs to start @ 15%, and probably a tad more on the 1 weapon hardpoints (the Summoner-Prime's arms, like @ 25%).

3) Switch Energy Cooldown Buff To Energy Generation - Having a lower cooldown doesn't make up for the fact that the mech still runs hot with 4 CERMEDs... especially when you want to combine it with a ballistic weapon that tends to consume some tonnage. Adding 5% to each 2E arm and adding 10% to the 1E Summoner-Prime Right Arm would help this out.

4) Switch Ballistic Cooldown Buff To Ballistic Velocity - Increasing the cooldown speed doesn't help on a tonnage limited mech. Even a 10% velocity buff will help (useless on MGs, which are not favorable in the first place). It's a simple buff that has some value.

5) Add CERPPC Velocity Buff - Limit It To Summoner-Prime's Left Arm - There's a reasonable call to limit certain buffs to certain omnipods and this would have some value. It currently has very little value and the Summoner-M's Left Torso would actually devalue the use of the Summoner-Prime's Right Arm, so it honestly need a decent buff. A 15% CERPPC Velocity Boost is probably a decent start.

6) Increase the torso twist radius of the mech from 90 degrees to somewhere close to or at 110 degrees. One of the things that Summoner has always had in previous games was a crazy torso twist. Seeing that this has the requirement listed in "suggestion #2" (buffing the arm structure), this will allow the mech to become a more effective fighter... and the torso twist is there... the agility through to make use of the torso twist is not. That's a sad reality.

7) Allow for Clan FF-> Clan Endo Steel conversion (Standard Armor in place of Clan FF with the fixed slots replaced with Endo Steel) OR simply enable Clan Endo Steel for all mechs that wish to enable it (assuming, it came with a Standard Structure) - This is a more complicated issue, but while I don't want to "remove" the fixed structure hardpoints (they are needed for balance), mechs that don't use it are generally behind the 8-ball... and the Dire Wolf has honestly no need for it. Whichever option is added, it would improve most of the subpar mechs (Hellbringer indirectly receives a side benefit, unlike the other screwed clan mechs).

Having experienced the "buffs" that were added... I found that the buffs were total headscratchers as it didn't address one iota what the Summoner had problems with. Hopefully, this will change. It doesn't make sense how certain buffs are applied or even thought about and unless there is a consistency in the development in the quirk system... even the arbitrary buff like increasing acceleration and speed on the Summoner honestly DOES NOTHING for the mech in the grand scheme of things.

Oh well...

[Ultimax]

Nice write up, but I disagree with you on the ballistic cooldown & energy cooldown quirks.


Both of those stack with weapon modules, which the summoner can take two of, and both are utilized in the Gauss/CERPPC build.


The quirk buff is mech-wide, so you are only using the Prime RA for the quirk and then stripping the armor for tonnage.


RoF is more important when you have to lean on a few, larger, weapons.


Something like this, takes full advantage of those quirks + modules.




Ballistic velocity is almost irrelevant for Gauss, the Summoner can't comfortably do more than 2x UAC 2s without stripping heavily from armor and/or going low on ammo - leaving you with something like one UAC 10 or one UAC 20.

So I'm not convinced this would actually be a better buff than CD reduction for ballistics, although it would be welcome for CERPPCs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 January 2015 - 05:14 PM.

[Mcgral18]

There are some nice Lore Omnipods, which are way out of timeline.

I like the idea of the Q; it comes with a LT E slot (along with 3 Missiles per ST) and a CT laser slot as well.

Who wouldn't love these?





Unfortunately, there's only one that's currently in the game files. Still useful as an extra laser or torso mounted PPC, but it couldn't save the Suckonner. It would require the above fixes, even if this pod was ever put in.

[Lucian Nostra]

I think your mistaken about the cooldowns on the Prime arms, when used with modules it becomes rather impressive and I have to say builds like ERPPC, Ultra 10 and SRM4 start to dish out some serious hurt.

I don't necessarily want energy heat reduction because I don't want to be exposed all that long anyway in a Summoner and I strongly dislike velocity quirking as it just messes with other mechs I drive..

[El Bandito]

Quirks alone can help the Summoner. No need to butcher the lore by bringing in future omni-pods.

For example on Summoner Prime:

CLB10X--50% cooldown, 25% projectile speed. (tighter spread quirk would be nice but dunno if PGI wants that)
CERPPC--25% cooldown, 25% less heat.
CLRM15--50% cooldown, 25% less heat, 25% range. (missile speed quirk would be nice but dunno if PGI wants that)
Armor--+10 to left and right leg armor.
Internals--+10 to right and left arm.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2015 - 09:36 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

Quirks alone can help the Summoner. No need to butcher the lore by bringing in future omni-pods.

For example on Summoner Prime:

CLB10X--50% cooldown, 25% projectile speed.
CERPPC--25% cooldown, 25% less heat.
LRM15--50% cooldown, 25% less heat, 25% range.

Technically speaking, future Omnipods don't conflict with the timeline because they only provide hardpoints and/or quirks...hardpoints and quirks were invented pre-spaceflight.

We don't need the future to have an energy hardpoint and a missile hardpoint.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 04 January 2015 - 09:32 PM, said:

Technically speaking, future Omnipods don't conflict with the timeline because they only provide hardpoints and/or quirks...hardpoints and quirks were invented pre-spaceflight.

We don't need the future to have an energy hardpoint and a missile hardpoint.

That's like saying we can have AK47 in a WWI game just because they technically could make it during that time with available technology.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2015 - 09:44 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

That's like saying we can have AK47 in a WWI game just because they technically could make it during that time with available technology.

The difference is that the AK-47 requires different construction/design/blueprints knowledge and stuff than was available during WWI.

Hardpoints, however, don't act any differently whether they "originated" in pre-spaceflight or 3192. The energy hardpoint on a Banshee is the same as an energy hardpoint as that mounted on a future tech mech like a Sunder or Fafnir or whatever.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 04 January 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

The difference is that the AK-47 requires different construction/design/blueprints knowledge and stuff than was available during WWI.

Hardpoints, however, don't act any differently whether they "originated" in pre-spaceflight or 3192. The energy hardpoint on a Banshee is the same as an energy hardpoint as that mounted on a future tech mech like a Sunder or Fafnir or whatever.

While your first point makes sense, I disagree on the second point. A mech is a very complicated machinery so much so that one cannot simply add hard points wherever he wants (or at least it should be like that). The mechs have their respective hardpoints during the timeline for a reason. It took new construction/design/blueprints to make those new hardpoints work with the mech. Same deal with omni-pods.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2015 - 09:54 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

While your first point makes sense, I disagree on the second point. A mech is a very complicated machinery so much so that one cannot simply add hard points wherever he wants (or at least it should be like that). The mechs have their respective hardpoints during the timeline for a reason.

That reason is probably more related to "flavor" than anything, "because of reasons."

Some of the future hardpoints seem to also have been made in attempt to redeem their respective chassis, like the completely redunkulous Thor left arm with 8 ballistic hardpoints in it.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 04 January 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

That reason is probably more related to "flavor" than anything, "because of reasons."

Some of the future hardpoints seem to also have been made in attempt to redeem their respective chassis, like the completely redunkulous Thor left arm with 8 ballistic hardpoints in it.

Wait....the Suckonner has 8 MGs available...the Lynx has 8 MGs available...the NOva has 8 MGs available...

I'm seeing a pattern here...

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 04 January 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

Wait....the Suckonner has 8 MGs available...the Lynx has 8 MGs available...the NOva has 8 MGs available...

I'm seeing a pattern here...

We need to see if the Gargles can mount up to 8 MGs in the future.

Quickly, to the Sarnamobile!

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 04 January 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

That reason is probably more related to "flavor" than anything, "because of reasons."

Some of the future hardpoints seem to also have been made in attempt to redeem their respective chassis, like the completely redunkulous Thor left arm with 8 ballistic hardpoints in it.

Right, and to make such a new and radical omni-pod work with the old mech, Clan technicians have to come up with new design/blueprints etc...hence the entire point of timeline. We cannot have the 8 ballistic Summoner arm if no one had thought about making it in 3050.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2015 - 10:05 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Right, and to make such a new and radical omni-pod work with the old mech, Clan tech has to come up with new design/blueprints etc...hence the entire point of timeline. That's the same reason why we cannot have AK-47 in WWI game.

The AK-47 is built with different knowledge than other WWI guns...an energy hardpoint doesn't change as time goes by. The "knowledge" used to make a hardpoint is the same no matter what year it is listed from. The mechs themselves might require different construction know-how, but we're not asking for a whole new mech, just a moved hardpoint.

Heck, hardpoints aren't even canon at all because mechs could put anything anywhere that could fit (Battlemechs needed refit kits and time + $$$ to do it though, Omnimechs were much easier and faster).


Also, the Thor Alternate M is actually from 3051, which isn't even that far off... Nicolai Malthus canonically used it during the Clan invasion.



He attacked Adam Steiner's HOME PLANET!!1!

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 04 January 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

Also, the Thor Alternate M is actually from 3051, which isn't even that far off... Nicolai Malthus canonically used it during the Clan invasion.

The complete variant arrived in 3051.

Who's to say that there weren't prototype omni-pods before the variant was actually released?

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 04 January 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

The "knowledge" used to make a hardpoint is the same no matter what year it is listed from. The mechs themselves might require different construction know-how, but we're not asking for a whole new mech, just a moved hardpoint.

As I said, we cannot have 8 ballistic slot omni-pods because no one had designed it in 3050--to fit with that particular mech. The reason they were not designed is because no one thought of designing it yet, or it hasn't been mass produced yet, or did not have the weapon intended for the hardpoints (in 8 ballistic omni-pod's case, the Anti-Personnel Gauss Rifle). That's why we have timeline.

If PGI wishes to do time-skip to 3051 to get Summoner-M, that's completely fine with me, but if they arbitrarily bring in omni-pods not available in 3050 for the sake of balance, that will upset me greatly.

I personally think my Atlas-D could perform better with an arm mounted AC20 (like the Atlas II), instead of the RT, but you don't see me asking for a moved hardpoint.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2015 - 10:25 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2015 - 10:13 PM, said:

As I said, we cannot have 8 ballistic slot omni-pods because no one had designed it in 3050--to fit with that particular mech. The reason they were not designed is because no one thought of designing it yet, or it hasn't been mass produced yet, or did not have the weapon intended for the hardpoints (in 8 ballistic omni-pod's case, the Anti-Personnel Gauss Rifle). That's why we have timeline.

If PGI wishes to do time-skip to 3051 to get Summoner-M, that's fine with me, but if they arbitrarily bring in omni-pods not available in 3050 for the sake of balance, that will upset me greatly.

Note that I didn't literally ask for the 8 ballistic arm right now, because that specific omnipod would be batshit insane (in any timeline).

It was just an example of FASA admitting they made certain Omnis bad on purpose, and thus they attempted to give them less-bad loadouts to compensate (or at least, tried to).


A left torso with 1 energy and 1 missile seems to be much closer to within the realm of sanity...

Edited by FupDup, 04 January 2015 - 10:29 PM.

[Walluh]

Omnipods were made to be able to put whatever weapons you want on it, period. TBR-S is no different from TBR-PRIME as a base. You can put whatever you want in an omnipod so long as it fits in it and on the mech. The restriction is internal structure and whatnot.

So, putting in whatever omnipod would never break the lore, period, unless it has something hardwired into it that isn't available

[Deathlike]

Lucian Nostra, on 04 January 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

I think your mistaken about the cooldowns on the Prime arms, when used with modules it becomes rather impressive and I have to say builds like ERPPC, Ultra 10 and SRM4 start to dish out some serious hurt.

I don't necessarily want energy heat reduction because I don't want to be exposed all that long anyway in a Summoner and I strongly dislike velocity quirking as it just messes with other mechs I drive..

While I probably wouldn't argue against it for the energy (you only get 3E at most for the moment to benefit from it), what possible build with ballistics would benefit from the Ballistic Cooldown on the Summoner?

I feel like I need a followup Ballistics report on Clans as the CUAC20 is a terrible thing (perhaps if the projectile was bigger, it would compensate for the delay). I tried dual CLBX5s on the Summoner (hoping it would combine into a "better" CLBX10 - although converge is a possible factor there), but that ship has sailed for me. Putting on an CLBX10 feels just like the IS LBX10... which at least seems a lot more bearable.

You'd think there would be more "fix Clan ballistics" threads...

[Navid A1]

A very nice write up.

The quirks mentioned here can actually help the unfortunate summoner a little bit. (even then. it will still suffer from its fundamental shortcomings).
However, with the current available omnipods, the ballistic cool down quirk can actually help more than velocity. As it needs more firepower delivery volume to compensate for its lack of hardpoints.
Heat generation bonuses on energy weapons on the arms as you stated would be a very nice addition.



edit:

Deathlike, on 04 January 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

...
I feel like I need a followup Ballistics report on Clans as the CUAC20 is a terrible thing (perhaps if the projectile was bigger, it would compensate for the delay). I tried dual CLBX5s on the Summoner (hoping it would combine into a "better" CLBX10 - although converge is a possible factor there), but that ship has sailed for me. Putting on an CLBX10 feels just like the IS LBX10... which at least seems a lot more bearable.

You'd think there would be more "fix Clan ballistics" threads...

Clan UAC20 could have been less ineffective if the number of projectiles were 4 instead of 5. It spreads its potential stopping power over way too much time and space... even for clan burst cannon standards.

Edited by Navid A1, 04 January 2015 - 10:32 PM.