169 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

I don't know whom I may be writing this for. Maybe I'm writing this for myself. It's something I feel needs to be said though.

After dropping with a competitive group a couple of times in CW matches, I started to think about competitiveness and it's affects on people and the game.


What is competitiveness?

Quote

having a strong desire to compete or to succeed.

Competitiveness, at it's root, is a desire to improve oneself. To become better. There is nothing wrong with having a competitive spirit. Being competitive is not a bad thing on it's own. A desire to improve yourself is a good thing. It's how we get better.

Competitiveness is also a desire to win. Taken in measure, this can also be a good thing. Compounded with the desire to improve, winning is the end goal. You try to improve yourself so you can win. This creates a cycle as more and more difficult challenges become presented.

Competition can be fun, enjoyable and rewarding and as a whole helps to improve all involved. As each person's competitive spirit drives each other to improve, the challenges rises. Rivalries can come up and adversaries rise to be overcome.

In it's proper proportions and perspective, competition and competitiveness are good things for the individuals and the communities.


Competitiveness, what problems can it bring?
Competitiveness can be a good thing, but like any good thing too much can be bad. Just like eating too much food can kill you, or drinking too much water can drown you, so can to much competitiveness.

When taken too far, it can be like a poison. It can affect you and those around you.

Now, I'm sure you are wondering, after all the good things about competition I've already mentioned, how can it possibly be bad? Good question and I hope I can provide a reasonable answer for you.

Competitiveness, in moderation, leads to improvement. When the drive to win overrides the desire to have fun, improve yourself and others, it tends to start to become a problem. An overabundance of competitiveness can lead to pride and obsession.

Often times, the competitive scene collides with the more casual players. Most times, there aren't any problems from this as each group often share similar goals: To have fun. To win. To improve.

Problems arise for over-competitive spirits, who expect everyone to play as they do, often with the concept of victory no matter the cost. These people, who have over-competitiveness poison, don't stop to consider fun anymore. They expect everyone else to play as they do, your feelings meaning nothing. They will tell other players how they must play.

Often times, those who suffer from this over-competitiveness poison don't see the affect they have on others around them. They often not only demand others to play the same way as them, but also will blame others for any losses or problems, even when they are the problem because they aren't communicating properly their plans or they over extend themselves and didn't get backed up from a group that didn't know what they were doing.

These people will try to win, no matter the cost. Honor. Integrity. Respect. All are but wheat to a scythe when it comes to victory.


Wait. Are you saying winning is bad?
Not at all. If that's what you got from this so far, then I'd advise you to read this again.

Winning is not a bad thing. Neither is losing either. When people face other people, there are going to be winners and there are going to be losers. There should be no shame in losing. It's going to happen to someone. No reason to be upset when it happens to you.

In any game, winning is the goal, fun should be the objective. If you are no longer having fun, maybe you need to re-evaluate your competitiveness?


Hold on a moment. Are you telling me I should enjoy losing?
Actually, I guess I am. You should have as much fun on a well fought loss as you do for any victory. A loss should be used as a learning experience. Though a loss is rarely caused by one person, as you win or lose as a whole team, you should be able to take something from it as well.

I'm not going to say every match, win or lose, will or should be fun either. There will always be matches that are frustrating or even boring. That's when you either jump right on into the next match, or maybe it is time for a break from the game in question.

Anyway, no matter the outcome of a match, it is never good to blame other people for a loss, and it is never alright to insult them. If anything, try to provide points and tips. Encourage your other teammates. You should try to help them, because when you improve their sills, if they end up back on your team again, their skills may have improved and you'll end up with a better match. Even if they end up on the enemy team, having opponents with improved skill levels will improve your game, as it improves your challenge and thus increases your own skills.


To Summarize:

• Competitiveness and competition are not bad. It is healthy and normal.
  
• Respect, honor and integrity should never be compromised for competitiveness. This doesn't mean not to use everything you can, it means to treat others respectfully. I'd rather people know me as a helpful person rather than "that jerk".
  
• Be helpful to others. This not only can improve your future teams and opponents, but also improves new/other player experiences.
  
• Have fun. Never forget it's just a game. Try to make it fun for yourself and for others.

Edited by Tesunie, 30 January 2015 - 10:41 AM.

[Almond Brown]

"Your Honor, both the Defense and Prosecution Teams request a short recess to figure out WTH just happened here. Thanks"

[Tesunie]

Stoned Prophet, on 30 January 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Brought to you by the guy who dcs in community warfare because "i dont like people telling me what to do" when hes solo with a 10+ man group. Yeah, you can keep these thoughts to yourself, because people like you want to have fun regardless of whether or not anyone else enjoys it too, and are therefore far far worse than those you claim are "poisoned by overcompetetiveness".

I find it funny how the incident that you mentioned happened with a Davion force, against Marik forces, and Clan Ghost Bear heard about it and it was only one game. Sounds like someone possibly broke the name and shame rule, as well as exaggerated the event?

Oh, and for the record, I played two matches with them. The first match, I was "demanded" to play a certain type of mech I did not wish to play a that time. Now, if I was "asked", I probably would have simply changed my mech over to the desired mech type. I almost did. But, I was not asked. I was demanded. I wasn't even allowed to say I have a mech of that type, before they demanded I jumped into a Champion Firestarter. Then I heard about 5 remarks from the same person how "use the Champion Firestarter." I got the message the first time, how bout asking?

THEN, after that during the same match, the "competitive" team wanted to preform a tactic. They failed to inform me what it was. I started to attack a gate generator, as I was already spotted along my attack corridor. Then, more attitude was tossed on me as I "didn't remain hidden". Well, sorry. You didn't ask me to remain hidden, and I was already spotted (along with them) on our approach to their hidy hole, thus it was irrelevant. Then, I was pursued by more inappropriate remarks for the duration of the match. But I finished playing that match. We won still from my recollections.

Then, I moved worlds to avoid them. I ended up getting another match with them again on a different world entirely, which I didn't have a problem with. When we all dropped, I provided some tactical suggestions. Then was flippantly told "Don't worry, WE have this". That was about enough insult as I could take from them. So, for the first time in my MW:O career, I left a match in progress without any crash or bug causing it. Once does not make the statement you said true. (I feel a "I don't always do..." meme here. It would go something like this, "I don't always drop out of CW matches willingly, but when I do it's because my own team are being jerks to me." With an added "for two matches".)

After that, I broke from Davion, and with the remaining 24 hour period, I moved to the Clan boarder to avoid them. I still managed to get my goal of rank 6 Davion before I left anyway. Notice how each time I took steps to avoid them to stop the possible confrontation? Also notice how the OP (Original Post to be clear) of this thread don't even mention them nor the incident you talk about?


I do not have to play with people who insult me. I don't HAVE to play with them if I don't want to. However, I've also seen this attitude in public matches as well, and not just CW matches. Thus, this thread is not even relating to that match you question, as that was just one such example incident.


I'd like to also add, I've had this happen in a D&D game. I put up with weeks of me and my character being the target of ridicule and harassing remarks from the rest of the group, right on down to them getting all the magical gear and I'm stuck with continual standard gear. In the middle of one bad session, my brother and I each decided to tell them we had had just about enough and was leaving. Oh, and we were taking our rule books with us. All of them. They had "fun" playing a game with no rule books after that.

If I'm willing to do that in real life, I'm certainly not going to put up with it in a game I play "to have fun". I don't care who you are. If I don't feel comfortable playing with you, and I'm not having fun with you, I'm not going to stick around for a second round of insults. I'll leave without any hesitation.

PS: This piece was NOT written with that event in mind. However, that event did inspire pieces of this as it was just another incident I've experienced with people being overly competitive to the point of taking all the fun out of the game and insulting a fellow player.

PS again: Do note how I didn't even bring them up in the piece at all? Even with this post, I still don't point fingers or names. Maybe, you need to recalibrate your own Competitive spirit if this article is bothering you? Or you going to try and straw man this with other "incidents" that don't invalidate what is said here again?

PS again for more information: If anyone noticed, my Drop Deck at the time included all Phoenix mechs. If one can understand why I might do that. I had a reason for playing what I was playing, not that anyone asked me. That reason was, I wished to join the Seraphim, but noticed I was only a few thousand points away from rank 6 Davion, which when they add in item grants for ranks into the game, is suppose to be a free mechbay. My goal at the time was to earn as many Loyalty points as fast as possible so I could get the rank and change factions to Marik. I had my reasons, not that anyone asked... And yes, I was still aiming to win the matches, as that provides Loyalty points as well, and I was willing to work within tactics presented if they were presented and not demanded. Attitude is everything. There is an expression that involved honey and vinegar that would be fitting here.

[Tesunie]

Mudhutwarrior, on 30 January 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Evidence please? I read so many of these.

No. He's right. I did leave one (and only one) match in MW:O, and it was a CW match. I announced in all chat, after an additional insult from the unit, that I could not play with my teammates and was going to DC. Many on each side (particularly the enemy side) felt sorry that I felt that way and actually wished me better matches in the future. I was up front and honest about it, as I will continue to be about the incident in question. I have no reason to deny the incident.

However, some people are trying to make it sound much worse than it really was, as his statement makes it sound like I leave CW matches regularly, which that implication is incorrect. If I ever end up on the same team of players, and they treated me nicely, I would be willing to play with them again. However, if I ever ended up on the same team in a CW match again with them, and get treated as poorly as they did last two times again, I won't say I wouldn't take the same actions again. As stated, I don't have to play with people who harass me. They want to say that "we have it", well then. Watch what you say. Cause I guess if you have it, you just don't need me.


However, even with that incident happening, it should not invalidate any of my standing points within my OP. I'm sure you've all seen it. The one player who charges in, dies, and then blames their team for not backing them up; or some other such similar event/attitude while in game.

[Tesunie]

Almond Brown, on 30 January 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

"Your Honor, both the Defense and Prosecution Teams request a short recess to figure out WTH just happened here. Thanks"

Is this a good thing?

[Linkin]

Good advice for any game- hit the nail on the head as they say.

[CocoaJin]

I can't say I've seen any problems arise from be competitiveness in pursuit of winning. The problems I see are the complaining about losing. It's no longer about being competitive, about improving one's self, learning from wins and loses...there is only the win, minus all the important stuff that leads to earning that win. If they don't win the blame it on the MM, on their team, on OP mechs, nerf demands, whines for meta preservation, etc, etc.

They want to be anointed with everything that suits them advantageously for winning, while denying any iota of personal responsibility when they lose.

[Stoned Prophet]

Oh and just so you know dcing because people word is nice to you as you wish they were is a punk move. No excuses.

[Vassago Rain]

Stoned Prophet, on 30 January 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Brought to you by the guy who dcs in community warfare because "i dont like people telling me what to do" when hes solo with a 10+ man group. Yeah, you can keep these thoughts to yourself, because people like you want to have fun regardless of whether or not anyone else enjoys it too, and are therefore far far worse than those you claim are "poisoned by overcompetetiveness".

Word.

[Jman5]

The long of the short of it is that you can't re-engineer people into ideal players. You're going to have bad players, you're going to have mouthy players, you're going to have try-hard players that put winning over fun, and you're going to have ragequitters. Nothing is really going to change the playerbase. The only way to improve things is if PGI designs a better experience. Align playing 2 win and playing 4 fun. If there is a tactic that is universally reviled, but highly effective, NERF THAT TACTIC!

If some people are offensive in chat, PGI should be globally muting those players for a time. Nobody likes that one guy on the team who keeps telling his team how bad they are. It's ruining the fun for some. And to be frank, it's the same people trash talking every game.

The ball is in PGI's court.

Edited by Jman5, 30 January 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Jman5, on 30 January 2015 - 03:05 PM, said:

The long of the short of it is that you can't re-engineer people into ideal players. You're going to have bad players, you're going to have mouthy players, you're going to have try-hard players that put winning over fun, and you're going to have ragequitters. Nothing is really going to change the playerbase. The only way to improve things is if PGI designs a better experience. Align playing 2 win and playing 4 fun. If there is a tactic that is universally reviled, but highly effective, NERF THAT TACTIC!

If some people are offensive in chat, PGI should be globally muting those players for a time. Nobody likes that one guy on the team who keeps telling his team how bad they are. It's ruining the fun for some. And to be frank, it's the same people trash talking every game.

The ball is in PGI's court.

Globally muting ***hats would make me so very happy. Doubtful it'll ever happen unless they're *really* offensive, but one can dream.

As to designing a better experience, so that playing to win and playing for fun are the same is impossible, because "Fun" means different things to different people.

Sadly, this has always been and will remain a problem in any competitive game. You've just got people playing what amounts to entirely different games mixed together.

The solution is for players to not be {Richard Cameron}, but really... that's not going to happen, because so very many people suck.

[Tesunie]

Stoned Prophet, on 30 January 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

Oh and just so you know dcing because people word is nice to you as you wish they were is a punk move. No excuses.

Your sentence is strangely worded, but if I have translated it correctly...

Just so you know, insulting fellow players on your team (or even on the other team, it matters not) is a "punk move". No excuses.

Plus. They said they had it. So, if they "have it", then they don't need me. Besides the unit members, everyone else seemed fine with my reasons for leaving, even if they did not understand them at the time.

If they had asked me to change my mech, instead of demanding it, the whole situation could have been avoided. Respect other players.

If it helps you out any, I reported the whole thing to PGI, including my reasons for DCing in that match. If you have an issue with my reasons for DCing in that match, then you also have full rights to report me for doing so.

Thing is, if you are trying to shame me for my actions, you are failing. I feel no shame for my actions. I did what I felt was required at the moment, and took appropriate actions. If you disagree with it, that is fine. However, if you had an "ALTS" which I presume means "alternate account" and was there personally, why are you not posting with that account? Also, why is your information incorrect about the facts of the issue? You said I was teamed with a 10+ premade, yet my screenshot (which I shall not post) says the group size was different than you indicated... If I have "ALTS" as the wrong description, please be more clear about what you are saying.

Also, your posts are derailing this thread. You are trying to stop the topic by "strawmaning" my statement with something irrelevant to the topic being discussed on hand. Rather I DCed from a match, and why I did so is not the point of the OP of this thread. Your statements here are irrelevant so far, besides to try and entice a reaction from me and make me "look bad".

I stand by my actions, and I stand by my reasons. Treat other people better, and everyone can have fun. Treat teammates like trash, and expect them to not listen to you, or even stick around if you mistreat them bad enough.

As stated, this is a game. I don't have to play with people who openly insult me and make me feel bad. However, I will treat each match as a separate event, and will react to the new match with the same people without prejudice. However, if they repeat old antics, I will take appropriate actions to protect myself. I also will take actions to prevent said incidents, such as moving to a different planet. Ultimately, I have not just moved to a different planet/mode of play, I have changed factions. This should solve that problem for some time, unless they too change factions to my new faction. I find that unlikely.


So, your point is irrelevant to the subject at hand. I ask you nicely, please drop it. I don't deny the incident, and I have explained my reasons for my actions. If PGI has any issues with it, they can address it as they please. If I wanted to aim for appearances, it would have been easier for me to deny what you were talking about. I have not. I see nothing more to be gained by talking about something I have admitted to doing clearly and honestly. I have also taken what measures I can to prevent any farther contact between me and the people that the altercations have happened with.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Stoned Prophet, on 30 January 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Mudhut demandi g evidence lol. Remember all you "i said it so you should believe me" posts. Laughable.



ALTS

Never got sarcasm much?

[Stoned Prophet]

From 30 January 2015 - 03:19 PM:

Your sentence is strangely worded, but if I have translated it correctly...

Just so you know, insulting fellow players on your team (or even on the other team, it matters not) is a "punk move". No excuses.

Plus. They said they had it. So, if they "have it", then they don't need me. Besides the unit members, everyone else seemed fine with my reasons for leaving, even if they did not understand them at the time.

If they had asked me to change my mech, instead of demanding it, the whole situation could have been avoided. Respect other players.

If it helps you out any, I reported the whole thing to PGI, including my reasons for DCing in that match. If you have an issue with my reasons for DCing in that match, then you also have full rights to report me for doing so.

Thing is, if you are trying to shame me for my actions, you are failing. I feel no shame for my actions. I did what I felt was required at the moment, and took appropriate actions. If you disagree with it, that is fine. However, if you had an "ALTS" which I presume means "alternate account" and was there personally, why are you not posting with that account? Also, why is your information incorrect about the facts of the issue? You said I was teamed with a 10+ premade, yet my screenshot (which I shall not post) says the group size was different than you indicated... If I have "ALTS" as the wrong description, please be more clear about what you are saying.

Also, your posts are derailing this thread. You are trying to stop the topic by "strawmaning" my statement with something irrelevant to the topic being discussed on hand. Rather I DCed from a match, and why I did so is not the point of the OP of this thread. Your statements here are irrelevant so far, besides to try and entice a reaction from me and make me "look bad".

I stand by my actions, and I stand by my reasons. Treat other people better, and everyone can have fun. Treat teammates like trash, and expect them to not listen to you, or even stick around if you mistreat them bad enough.

As stated, this is a game. I don't have to play with people who openly insult me and make me feel bad. However, I will treat each match as a separate event, and will react to the new match with the same people without prejudice. However, if they repeat old antics, I will take appropriate actions to protect myself. I also will take actions to prevent said incidents, such as moving to a different planet. Ultimately, I have not just moved to a different planet/mode of play, I have changed factions. This should solve that problem for some time, unless they too change factions to my new faction. I find that unlikely.


So, your point is irrelevant to the subject at hand. I ask you nicely, please drop it. I don't deny the incident, and I have explained my reasons for my actions. If PGI has any issues with it, they can address it as they please. If I wanted to aim for appearances, it would have been easier for me to deny what you were talking about. I have not. I see nothing more to be gained by talking about something I have admitted to doing clearly and honestly. I have also taken what measures I can to prevent any farther contact between me and the people that the altercations have happened with.

No one insulted you. You threw a hissy fit. That's it. Be a big boy admit your failings.

From 30 January 2015 - 03:23 PM:

Never got sarcasm much?

I got that you change your story to suit the point ypurr trying to make.

Edited by Stoned Prophet, 02 February 2015 - 05:28 PM.

[Jman5]

Wintersdark, on 30 January 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

As to designing a better experience, so that playing to win and playing for fun are the same is impossible, because "Fun" means different things to different people.

You're right that you can't please everyone. However I think it's pretty doable to find common themes that most players can agree is "fun" and "not fun". For example, I think if you asked a reasonable player if they found suicide generator rushing fun for either side they would say no. I'm sure some players find it thrilling, but not enough to ruin the experience for the rest.

[Tesunie]

Stoned Prophet, on 30 January 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

No one insulted you. You threw a hissy fit. That's it. Be a big boy admit your failings.

I got "demanded" to take a certain mech. Not asked. That was rude, but I could deal with that. Then they continued to hound me during the match. That was rude and uncalled for. However, I finished that match. Then, the third time they insulted me, I was out. Pardon me if I don't like playing with rude people. If you feel this comment is directed at you, I'm sorry you feel like a rude person. If my OP is offensive to you, then maybe it was written for you and I didn't know it. Maybe, you need to check your own competitive spirit?

I'll admit I'm not perfect. However, in this case I was not in the wrong. Look else where for your blame.

However, this is a non-point now, as it wont happen again. I shouldn't drop with them again in CW. Not unless they change factions. I have taken actions on my side, which shouldn't need to be said but shows maturity on my side. Even if I do, as long as they treat me well, I will play with them. They treat me like trash again, and I will leave them again. (I'd like to note, had it been one PUG, I would have ignored them and continued to play. When it's a unit doing it, and they comprise most of the team, it can't be ignored, so I left.)

Edit: Typo

Edited by Tesunie, 31 January 2015 - 08:39 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Honor is for the dead. Integrity is for my battleline. Respect is for the TBR god.

[Wintersdark]

Jman5, on 30 January 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

You're right that you can't please everyone. However I think it's pretty doable to find common themes that most players can agree is "fun" and "not fun". For example, I think if you asked a reasonable player if they found suicide generator rushing fun for either side they would say no. I'm sure some players find it thrilling, but not enough to ruin the experience for the rest.

Of course. But things weren't designed around suicide rushing. That's the point. More competitive players will generally strive to find optimal strategies, and once highly optimal strategies are found they'll be exploited, and no longer as much/any (depending on your perspective ) fun.

I can't think of a multiplayer game where this hasn't been the case, ever. Once you get tens of thousands of people striving to win and/or have fun, optimal solutions are found very, very quickly.

This is indeed a game design problem, but its one that is extremely difficult or perhaps even impossible to solve. I certainly can't think of any sufficiently complex game that's solved it.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Stoned Prophet, on 30 January 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Brought to you by the guy who dcs in community warfare because "i dont like people telling me what to do" when hes solo with a 10+ man group. Yeah, you can keep these thoughts to yourself, because people like you want to have fun regardless of whether or not anyone else enjoys it too, and are therefore far far worse than those you claim are "poisoned by overcompetetiveness".

You know, it would appear that you are just proving Tesunie's points about this. Seeing as you have now followed him outside of that one match and have now (likely continued) 'harasses' him in this thread, even though he never made mention of you or your exact match in his original OP.

On another note. I've played with a group that was likely doing the same tactics that you likely played. (I assume it was a Zurg rush with lights with jump...). Well lo and behold, I had no lights with jump! What they did instead was, jump over the gate, destroy the gate gen so I could join them, and then rush on... Another idea would be to have that player drop as they would normally and to just ask them to hit the other gate then what you are going through (or over..). You know, be a distraction for the rest of the team. Then, while the enemy is distracted with him, the lights zurg up, over and out. Then the enemy team tries to stop the zurg and ignores him, who can now rush to the omega from the other side and cause some damage...

Sometimes, instead of forcing others to fit your tactic, you need to find a way to make your tactic fit the team...

[Valar13]

Mudhutwarrior, on 30 January 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Evidence please? I read so many of these.

Oh, was that you with the wide stance in the mens room?

Actually, we were in the drop he was referring to when this guy was Dav.