31 replies to this topic

[AtomCore]

Hello,
my ERLL range shows 911m optimal. So they should do some damage at 1822m range?
But in fact their limit is 1499m.

Clan ERLL dont have that limit, easily hit after 1700 easily.
As inner sphere warrior I demand my ERLL damage after 1500m!

Edited by AtomCore, 12 February 2015 - 01:45 AM.

[RedDinamo]

+1

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Wich mech?
ER LARGE LASER 9.00 8.00 3.25 675 1,350
With 10% modula bit more range. 911m? ....hmmmm

ER LARGE LASER RANGE: 12.50 % ENERGY RANGE: 12.50 % ?
Spider?
For works fine at 1800m.....

[zortesh]

Tdr-5ss has this problem with erlarges, specifically.

[Toryn Veider]

+1

[Tarogato]

Hope to get a dev response on this topic.

It seems that the hard limit on range for beam weapons is 1500m. Any lasers that technically should reach beyond this range via quirks+modules are actually erroneously doing 0 damage/not contacting. The TDR-5SS with ERLL falls victim to this issue, but it is not alone.

[Kmieciu]

Probably because IS ER LL has 1500 visible range: http://static.mwomer...apons/1005.json
While the C-ER LL has 2000: http://static.mwomer...apons/1213.json

[Patrick Moore]

So need to fix that.

[Lily from animove]

why not simply testing this in testing ground?

[PerfectDuck]

Most weapons have their maximum falloff distance set to be exactly twice the number as the optimal range (farthest distance at which you get 100% damage)

Modules add 10% to optimal range as well as 10% to maximum falloff distance, which enforces the idea that falloff distance is always twice the optimal range.

Quirks do NOT affect maximum falloff distance.

You will notice that a module's description mentions both max range and falloff, wheras there is in fact not a single quirk in the game as of now that mentions maximum falloff distance.

This isn't a bug, it's just a misconception. This is why you are not doing damage at impossible ranges.

Also for the record, clan ER Large lasers with module do 0% damage after 1628 meters so that bit about 'easily' and 1700m is straight up false.



The Thunderbolt 5SS has a 25% general energy weapon range quirk. With a 10% range module you end up with (675 base range x 1.35) 911.25 optimal range and (1350 x 1.1) 1485 maximum falloff distance. Your damage will scale from 100% to 0% sharply between 911 and 1485 meters.

Edited by PerfectDuck, 12 February 2015 - 08:00 AM.

[Ironwithin]

PerfectDuck, on 12 February 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

...
Quirks do NOT affect maximum falloff distance.
...

You are wrong.

Un-quirked optimal range and maxrange of IS MLAS is 270m and 540m respectively.
Raven 4X has 10% bonus on energy range.
According to your theory optimal range then is 297m and maxrange is still 540 ?



You can test it yourself with any other 'mech and weapon. Took about 3 minutes to slap on a laser and engine and drop into alpine. POSTING this, infact, took longer then testing it.

Edited by Ironwithin, 12 February 2015 - 08:15 AM.

[PerfectDuck]

We did the same tests using a TDR-5SS.

We found that the red hit indicator lied to us, but damage incurred proportinately fell off based on what I've already posted, with 50% damage happening where predicted at halfway between 911 and 1485.

We also considered that glimpses of damage at slightly beyond these ranges (like 1499) are rounding errors that are yeilding the game's minimum damage instead of zero. Medium lasers have such a small base damage of 5 that they could in fact have more difficulty reaching a calculated zero damage due to bad calculation resolution.

Edited by PerfectDuck, 12 February 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Kurayami]

+1

[Ironwithin]

PerfectDuck, on 12 February 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

We did the same tests using a TDR-5SS.

We found that the red hit indicator lied to us, but damage incurred proportinately fell off based on what I've already posted, with 50% damage happening where predicted at halfway between 911 and 1485.

So you found, tested and verified the exact same bug the OP is reporting.
IS ERLL maxrange is not working correctly with rangequirks.

Your statement of range-quirks not affecting maxrange is still wrong with any other weapon.

Edited by Ironwithin, 12 February 2015 - 09:25 AM.

[PerfectDuck]

Wrong with any other weapon you say? Try a medium pulse TDR-5SS, the one with the 50% range quirk, and throw on a range module for good measure as well. Since its range is 352, and this 'bug' is specific to ERLL on the 5S, then you should be able to core out and kill a dummy in testing grounds from 650 meters right? Unless of course the quirk is not affecting maximum falloff distance and your falloff actually sharply drops down to zero around 484

I kind of like to think that if quirks *did* affect falloff distance as well, then IS mechs would be ungodly overpowered. Many clanners seem to think they already are in their current 'bugged' state. I think that even though the instructions on the box are unclear, it's working as intended.

Um. The same findings were also field confirmed with BLR-1S and STK-3H ERLL builds. They do no damage after 1500 as expected and do close to zero damage at the threshold as expected. This 'bug' is not unique to the TDR-5S.

Edited by PerfectDuck, 12 February 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[PerfectDuck]

The reason you may still do piddling amounts of damage beyond how my model calculates it (such as with that raven hitting past 540 meters) is unknown. Our current belief is it's like this: A laser weapon is not a single 5 damage blast but rather a rapid series of dozens of small-damage hitscans. These little micro hits are reduced even further as weapon range falloff happens, resulting in very small damage amounts. The actual damage that you are doing becomes less of a linear drop-off rate but more of a stair-step of minimal damage increments. If the calculation is rounding up somewhere, it may be able to hurt beyond the point at which it is supposed to drop down to 0, a distance which amounts to the length of one of these stairs.

[Ironwithin]

PerfectDuck, on 12 February 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Wrong with any other weapon you say? Try a medium pulse TDR-5SS, the one with the 50% range quirk, and throw on a range module for good measure as well. Since its range is 352, and this 'bug' is specific to ERLL on the 5S, then you should be able to core out and kill a dummy in testing grounds from 650 meters right? Unless of course the quirk is not affecting maximum falloff distance and your falloff actually sharply drops down to zero around 484
...

Don't know what to tell you...they work just fine for me:





So we have the weapons whose maxrange is affected by quirks as one would expect ((optimalrange + bonus) x 2 = maxrange, tested all of these myself):

- Machineguns, AC2, UAC5, AC5, AC10, LB10X, AC20, Small Laser, Small Pulse Laser, Medium Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser, PPC, ERPPC

And the weapons that stray from that norm:
- ER Large Laser

Weapons not on the list: Flamer, all Missiles, they don't have a maxrange beyond their optimal range. Gauss Rifle, try finding a spot to test 2.1 km of direct LoS fire with just a 10% bonus ...

You are right, it is absolutely obvious that maxrange is not supposed to be affected by quirks. One out of 16 weapons is behaving like they should.
PGI please fix: Machineguns, AC2, UAC5, AC5, AC10, LB10X, AC20, Small Laser, Small Pulse Laser, Medium Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser, PPC, ERPPC.

There are certainly other bugs with ranges on some 'mechs but the pattern is pretty clear, don't you think ?

Edited by Ironwithin, 12 February 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[PerfectDuck]

Interesting. I like being proven wrong. We've experienced thunderwubs not hitting at 600 but I cannot say we've done this any time recent. Perhaps it's true and we've made false assumptions based on the consistent ERLL results that we have had using TDR, STK, BLR mechs. ERLL was the weapon we studied more than anything. You could understand how we'd come to this conclusion if we've been mainly testing with ERLL. I think that Kmieciu is likely on to something here. The fact that their optimal range times 1.1 from module equals 1485, which is near that 1500 rendering number are so similar sure made it seem like our reasonings were backed with results. Plus there was the issue with our thunderwubs not hitting at those ranges. The visrange stat for Medium Pulse is also 1500 so it would not be bottlenecked by that number if this is indeed what is causing the ERLL discrepancy.

Also I cannot open your images and have been going at your word, Ironwithin.

[Ironwithin]

PerfectDuck, on 12 February 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

...
Also I cannot open your images and have been going at your word, Ironwithin.

Odd.

Does photobucket work then ?



I simply did all testing in Training Grounds on various maps with various 'mechs, the results were all as expected, (optimal range + bonus) x 2 = maxrange.
With the exception of the ERLL of course.

You can do all of that youself very easily.

Edited by Ironwithin, 12 February 2015 - 11:51 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

So it is a bug and our 5SS's should be doing damage at 1822m??? FIX IT!