44 replies to this topic

[Sewman]

Hi All,
I need some help deciding which IS Assault mech to buy next. In today's Meta, it looks like the Banshee and the King Crab are both awesome IS Assault Mechs (as is the Stalker but I'm going to wait for a sale before getting the Misery + others).

Background on my playstyle:
I started with Heavies and moved to mediums and lights. I can do the most consistent damage with Mediums (Firestarters rock too).

I have a ton of matches in Victors and Highlanders but they're really fallen from grace in today's meta where heat efficient DPS builds do the best. It doesn't look like these 2 chassis are going to get major quirks any time soon so I'm looking for a new IS assault to wreck faces with - in both pugs and some CW matches.

What I've learned about the Banshee, mostly from Rak's Armory (Thanks Tahribator) and some Banshee threads:
The 3E is boss - Hovering Tier 1/2 on various lists according to Metamechs.com and already good before the AC5 cooldown quirkening. The 3M, previously known as the Wubshee before the most recent Quirk updates, now has -10% heat generation on all energy weapons. So still a good laser boat with the removal of the 3 LLAS ghost heat. The 3S is the ugly duckling but super cheap to grind through if you want to just stick with STD heat sinks and boat mlas's (Which actually sounds really fun). Not interested in the La Malinche - gonna spend my MC elsewhere.

The Banshee (3E specifically) wins plenty of staring contests with its DPS. But I think the true strength is knowing how to use those shield arms. People say that it's as good as or better at absorbing damage as at Atlas because you don't lose any of your firepower when your arms get shot off. Centurion and Shadowhawk pilots nod knowingly)

I've also read that Banshees are particularly vulnerable to lights because of the lack of arm weapons.

What I've learned about King Crabs:
The new king of dakka.
Incredible torso twist range and twist speed for an assault
It's actually a great hill humper because it's laser and missile hardpoints are above the cockpit.
Short profile, shorter than some heavies.

They have big CTs.
Not quite as tanky as the Banshee.
They're focused hard right now.

There are YouTube videos posted of both Assaults doing well over 1K damage, and owners of both rave about them. I'm just looking for a little more information. I'm probably going to buy them all one day but it's fun to chat about the differences in today's constantly changing meta.

Cheers!

Edited by Sewman, 19 February 2015 - 12:55 PM.

[Dawnstealer]

Banshees are certainly "zippier," but the KGC is more useful with the big ballistics. That said, my go-to "big mech" in CW is my LPL Banshee (still) even though I have (and have mastered) 4 KGCs. KGC is a really fun mech, can hill-hump, and can carry the largest ballistics. Even before it's mastered, it's a monster.

The Banshee is the flip side of that coin: they're pretty good once you have them mastered, but until then, they can be pretty painful. Also, given their size, they're usually the focus of enemy fire, even if bigger, more dangerous mechs are present (Whales, Atlases, King Crabs, etc). They are fun to pilot, though, and if you can get a handle on them, they're pretty amazing.

[Amsro]

I don't have the Banshee, but I can attest to the King Crab being a beast.

The KC comes with the STD300 engine (which is the best for the chassis). 53kph speed tweaked, with lots of options for loadouts.

This mech will not disappoint.

[Jorunn]

It sounds like you've done your research and if you like piloting mediums the Banshee with a big engine will be your favorite as it's so fast and nimble for an assault and very survivable. The BNC-3E does great dakka though not as heavy a loadout as the Crab it's still doing 65.7 Kph with a STD350. The BNC-3M Wubshee with a 380XL or 400XL is just wow fast for a giant assault. I agree with Dawnstealer that before you master them they are not nearly as fun.

I just can't bear to go slow so the Dire Whale and Crab wouldn't suit my play style.

[DrRedCoat]

You've covered the most important parts of both so here's my brief plug for the King Crab.

It's amazing.

I tend to keep to the lower weight classes but a few assaults can make me come up and the King Crab is one of them (I was super excited for it to come to MWO). Jorunn is right, though; the King Crab is unbelievably slow and my KGC-000 can get a little hot in a brawl (2 AC20s and 2 LL). I'd say it's all about showing up to the party at just the right time and showing a little trigger discipline when things get toasty. But dual AC20s is so satisfying, especially when you go up against a Jagerboom who thinks his AC20s can somehow outstrip armor faster than yours can. Always a blast.

[Flak Kannon]

A Banshee with a large STD engine can take one heck of a punishment, and dish out a fair amount.

But..

A King Crab with Quad Uac5's kill at a ridic level. Only problem is it needs a XL engine... making it pretty fragile. But if it catch any single mech face to face, it will win if your aim is good. Just don't get light swarmed, and try not to be a hero in a XL King Crab.


Depends on how good you are at controlling the distance of engagement.


Besides the a couple quirked mechs, no other mech can kill quite as fast as a quad Uac5 crab.

[NRP]

Sounds like the OP know what he's doing. Therefore, while I'm guessing he will excel in either mech, I am going to recommend the banshee as the better straight up brawler.

[Punk Oblivion]

I own both and use both regularly, this is a tough decision, and I would recommend getting both eventually!

Both have variants that can run 4xLPL which is a great build, espcially if you can chain fire them, the hit reg that way is almost always 100%
Banshee can run 6xLPL/LL if you want.
Otherwise the King Crab wins the LPL contest because of an extra couple heatsinks and high energy mounts.

Other that that specific build, I would say the Banshee is tankier as it has better hit boxes and the (mostly empty) arms are really good shields.

The King crab is less tanky, even though it is 5 tons heavier. The CT is very large and the top sucks most LRM's into the Center as well. Also the arms, although large, don't block the torso as well. BUT the King Crab handles better, almost feels like a heavy with a 350 or higher engine. And in most cases will out DPS a banshee with more and better hardpoint selections.

Edited by Punk Oblivion, 19 February 2015 - 09:59 PM.

[oldradagast]

Banshees are faster and "tankier," but generally the Crab will deal more damage. A well set-up Banshee 3E is the only exception to that, though all Banshees are dangerous... most of them just can't win a staring contest with a King Crab. But that's not the Banshee's role; they are meant to be faster than normal for their size, take hits, and get into position to deal solid - but not overwhelming - firepower. The Crab, like the Dire Whale, is meant as more of a walking turret. It'll get there, eventually, and kill everything in its path, but don't rush it.

Banshees are vulnerable to lights and also hate vertical terrain changes because of the lack of arm weapons, but they do roll damage very well.

King Crabs aren't exactly fond of lights either; they do have arm weapons, yes, but they are ballistics so it's a roll of the dice as to what happens. You can't just sweep the legs of the light with lasers... but if you DO score some ballistics hits, that light is toast.

The King Crab has high-mounted energy and missile hardpoints, while the Banshees have a few high-mounted energy hardpoints as well. The 3E can have high-mounted ballistics if you use 3 or more, and the 3S has a single high-mounted missile hardpoint, so neither are pure "knuckle-draggers" like the poor Atlas.

Personally, I prefer the Banshees, but I also play a lot of Medium mechs, so being too slow isn't fun for me.

Edited by oldradagast, 20 February 2015 - 04:28 AM.

[Sewman]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies.

It's really interesting to hear from people that have both. And I'm starting to see that they play roles that are quite different, which is a good thing because there'll be a reason to get both!

As a mostly medium pilot and someone whose accustomed to faster Assaults, I think that my itchier play style suits the Banshee a bit better. There's something satisfying in being able to tank damage to below 30% health and come out of a brawl alive.

One reason I'm leaning towards the King Crab though, is that I've read that all variants bring slightly different builds, but all effective. Whereas with the Banshee, there's definitely one that's going to collect dust in the garage or relegated to troll builds, the 3S. Sure, the King Crab doesn't suit my play style but I guess it'll help to learn some more patience and be more strategic with my 'reveal' timing.

Anybody have any thoughts on what the worst King Crab is like? Or for that matter, how bad the BNC-3S is compared to the others? For instance, I sold my VTR-9K but still thought it was a fun mech with 6jjs and a high engine cap, still viable if not anything close to the others. I sold a Griffin 1S. No regrets there. So much weaker compared to the others.

Edited by Sewman, 20 February 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[DONTOR]

Banshee's can go faster and have higher mounted ballistics, and runs XL engines safer than a King Crab. BUT a King Crab is basically an i.s. Dire Wolf so if you want something like that then you might as well Kng Crab.

They are both fantastic mechs though. Banshee's will probably end up being more expensive since you will want to get a big XL to run them most effeciently. I would suggest XL375-380 or 390. Depending on what else you might want to use big XLs in...

Edited by DONTOR, 20 February 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[DONTOR]

Sewman, on 20 February 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Or for that matter, how bad the BNC-3S is compared to the others?

Well I kept mine becasue its the only one that has a lower engine cap so I run it with a standard engine and a big alpha. 6 Medium lasers an AC20 and a LPL. So a 71 point alpha, which used to be alot before Clan mechs came out. Its probably alot cooler running now with quirks also.

[Creovex]

Sorry, I didn't read where you wrote "Screw meta... get an Atlas!"

I would take an AS7-S over any other assault anyday.... Front load that armor and lead the charge!

[Punk Oblivion]

Man, you ask some good questions sewman :-P

As for the King Crabs, IMO there are no "bad" variants. Sometimes certain builds can be a bit finicky on certain ones, but that is all. There is also a ton of room for build diversity on all the variants.

With the Banshees you are kind of funneled into certain builds. With the 3E you are looking at 2-3 AC5's with maybe a PPC, otherwise laser back-ups. The 3M recently got general quirks over specific LPL quirks, but It is still going to be boating LPL's/LL's for the most part. Unless you wanna try PPC's on it, but I would not recommend that.

As for the 3S, I would not say it is the "weakest" chassis. It DOES however have the weakest quirks. Which really hurt it. There is a single ballistic hardpoint that only got 10% CD, and a single missile hard point that got no love at all. It has 8 energy hardpoints, but it got mediocre medium laser quirks which shadow in comparison to the 3M's energy quirks.

Having said that, there is room for an AC20/SRM6 combo with some back-up lasers. Or maybe an AC10/LRM10-15 with back-up lasers. Or you can ignore the missile hardpoint and just go AC20/AC10 with a multi-sized laser suite.

[Soul Tribunal]

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my KGC's. I use two with STD Engines, and two with XL's. Survival rate on both is about equal thus far. Its all in how you twist.
However the Banshee's are a lot of fun as well. Especially with an XL400 in the 3E (I think). A 75km/h 95Ton Assault loaded with WUB is no laughing matter. You can seriously ruin other peoples day.
Most of my other Banshee Builds centre around an AC20. Which is boring , but reliable.

I would opt for the Banshee first, than KCG.

-ST

[Recon Strike]

I own 3 variants of both chassis and would certainly recommend both!

Although the BNC-3E is my all time favorite mech, I have to agree with what others have allready said: the KGC's are more versatile.

Take the 0000 for example..
2x AC/20 + 2x LPL brawler,
4x LRM15 LRMboat,
2x Gauss + 2x PPC/ERLL fire support/sniper,
3x LPL + 4x SRM4 Brawler,
4x LPL hillhumper...

There is basically no end to the variety of viable builds this thing can carry, and it's not even the best KGC.

But yea, to me the Banshee is just pure and undistilled awsomeness, just tough as hell. Although you will more easily diverge into a smaller variety of viable builds with that chassis.

In short.. get both!







But get the Banshee first ;-)

Edited by Recon Strike, 20 February 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[Valar Morghuliz]

The BNC-3E is my alltime-best-mech...and i piloted a lot. I did more often than once more than 2000 dmg in normal games. Had not yet the pleasure to try these out in CW, cause im a full-blood clanner.

Like most people already said, the Crab is more versatile. But as a clanner, it is a lot easier (maybe only for me, don´t know) to kill Crabs than Banshees, when they are played equal.

The weapons in that mech are mounted high enough and you can speed up these beasts to 75 kph (as far as i remember). Loved the laserversion of the wubshee with highest Xl. If you practice enough and if you are good in torsotwisting the mech is a serialkiller, way more a crab can be, beacause it has, for me, 2 major advantages even when the layout is similar:

1. The better damagespread and through that, the longer lifetime.
2. The better possibilites to kill annoying lights (except when the Crab got Gausscannons)...try that out with a wubshee, it rocks to play an assault-lighthunter. ^^

For beginners i would recommend the Crab, for advanced fighters the Banshee.

[Gevurah]

I own both and most points have already been made so I figure I'll throw my 2c in and leave it be.

The KGC works really well but the low arm mounts on the ballistics really doesn't mesh well with my play style. I find it plays like a lower, beefier cataphract. It tends to get shot out from under me quickly and you don't have the benefit of those wonderful dead arms to soak damage with like a banshee.

That said, I have like 1m experience in phracts. I love em. And I love my crabbies. They are very fun, in every way. The high mounted laser points are pretty incredible.

But IMO - the banshee is better. It has a MASSIVE amount of dead armor to soak damage with and the high mounted weapons really help. On top of that it's profile is thinner so it is easier to stay on cover. It runs cool and hits hard. The 3xAC5 builds play superb. The other ones have some great quirks too.

Preference plays a lot into it. The simple fact is the crab can do things the banshee can't. And the banshee seems to be vastly more durable if played with torso twisting while allowing more continuous dps.

[Finkledbody]

How does one acquire the 4th King Crab? Two people have said they mastered all 4 variants.

Only variants I know of are 000 / 0000 / 000B

So what gives?

[Recon Strike]

Finkledbody, on 20 February 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

How does one acquire the 4th King Crab? Two people have said they mastered all 4 variants.

Only variants I know of are 000 / 0000 / 000B

So what gives?

They probably mean the 000(L) variant, which is just a 000 with cbill bonus that doesn't have to be mastered seperately, if I'm not mistaken.