60 replies to this topic

[Ductus Hase]

Aylward, on 19 February 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

This was a strategic move, and was coordinated with a Steiner Command rep. SRoT was reached out to as well, but was not able to be reached in time.. There is no malice here between Davion and Steiner.. All speculation to the contrary is baseless.. That is all.

This is the statement.

Imigo Montoya, on 20 February 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

It 's a strategic move to open an attack route for Marik threw the Terran Corridor .... after Marik has reached the Kurita border they will go rampage on Darconis Combine Worlds.... this will help Steiner and Davion, because they don't need to defend against Kurita anymore....

and after the traitors of the Innere Sphereare defeated they can sit on Black Luthien and play with themselfes there will bee more blood on the streets of Kentares and it will bee the blood of the DCMS Soldiers noto innocent Davion citizen...
if we had give up one or two planets to achieve this it is good and right...

and if Steiner needs one planet it ca bee seeded by House Marik

This is not.

Quote

Reitmeier, on 20 February 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

So this is the official statement from Marik and Davion HC and the nSL?

RjBass3, on 20 February 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

No

These guys are to hold responsible:

thatrobotguy, on 19 February 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

And according to the members of SRoT who dropped in defense of the planet right before the ceasefire, it was a mixed group of 6 RRB, 2 HHoD, and a few others (will try to obtain a screenshot if you so desire, not sure if anyone took one though) so it wasn't the troll group -JD- this time either

Did I get this right?
Name the Steiners and Davions who arranged this operation please.

[Dawnstealer]

Aylward, on 19 February 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

This was a strategic move, and was coordinated with a Steiner Command rep. SRoT was reached out to as well, but was not able to be reached in time.. There is no malice here between Davion and Steiner.. All speculation to the contrary is baseless.. That is all.

"A Steiner Command rep."

Do go on, please.

"SRoT was reached out to as well, but was not able to be reached in time."

That would appear to be a pretty big piece to be missing from this equation.

"There is no malice here between Davion and Steiner.. All speculation to the contrary is baseless."

Perhaps Steiner should make a deal with Liao to give them a corridor to Kurita space, too. You wouldn't mind if we just had them barrel through the Sarna March, yah? I mean, I was going to reach out to your leadership, but timing and such...

I'm sure you understand.

Edit: And I want to stress that I'm pretty pro-FedCom - when PUGs were dropping on Davion worlds in the early days of CW, I was one the first to call them on it. If Davion wanted a few planets for whatever reason, I don't mind because I see the FedCom as one faction.

The thing I have a problem with is Davion troops dropping on Steiner worlds to take them so they can be handed to Marik. That's not a real friendly thing to do.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 20 February 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Would have been happy to facilitate giving a Davion world to Steiner if they could have done it last night to do the same. In fact I've tried to reach out to Steiner units to facilitate giving Davion worlds back to them after some cross-border shenanigans. The consensus from the Steiner units I spoke to was that they didn't care, they were on the Clan front.

We did reach out to a number of Steiner units. This wasn't a surprise nor malicious. If you think Marik is going to have any time to drop on Steiner worlds after they are kissing faces with Kurita you're crazy pants. Those two are going to set at each other like two cats in a sack. My money, long term, is on Marik. Short term though there's going to be a bit of a 'first 2 rounds of a Rocky fight' set of events. That wouldn't surprise me.

If you want to have some people dedicated to speaking to Davion and communicating with the rest of Steiner that would be incredible. We want to talk to you, we want to coordinate with you and we want to work together. Currently though that consists of 2 or 3 of us having to try and speak to 6-10 people, not all of whom respond and some of whom may respond but not end up getting the word out to all of their members.

We did reach out to leadership. Everyone we could get ahold of. If you want better relations with Davion we need a hand coming back across the aisle. We want your input and involvement and coordination but it can feel at times like it's something we have to shake out of you.

Give us 1 or 2 people to talk to who we can consistently get ahold of and this sort of misunderstanding won't happen.

[SteelWarrior]

You have my sympathy Steiner, its unfortunate that you dont have the man power to counter Mariks latest bad joke

The algorithm will not give them the route they seek, and they already know this. The game doesnt gravitate you towards the clans. But they will keep taking your world and claiming that their plan will work.

Davion might as well hand New Avalon to the birds as well if they are so willing to be a vassal state. HK is ready for a cease fire but you turn to the purple birds to save you, putting faith in people who were publically exposed for being full of shiat

[Dawnstealer]

Okay, a few things here, so let me take them in order:

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Would have been happy to facilitate giving a Davion world to Steiner if they could have done it last night to do the same. In fact I've tried to reach out to Steiner units to facilitate giving Davion worlds back to them after some cross-border shenanigans. The consensus from the Steiner units I spoke to was that they didn't care, they were on the Clan front.

Yes - CJF is taking up all of our attention. That much is correct. Meanwhile, Marik has been chewing up our backsides to the tune of about 50 planets. Marik would be the power you made a deal with, in case you were wondering.

Because you don't seem to be getting my consternation on this subject, let me put this another way: this would be like Steiner making a deal with Kurita for them to attack Marik by plowing through Davion worlds. And then by Steiner units dropping on those systems so the route will be easier and more guaranteed.

See why that might be a problem?

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

We did reach out to a number of Steiner units. This wasn't a surprise nor malicious. If you think Marik is going to have any time to drop on Steiner worlds after they are kissing faces with Kurita you're crazy pants. Those two are going to set at each other like two cats in a sack. My money, long term, is on Marik. Short term though there's going to be a bit of a 'first 2 rounds of a Rocky fight' set of events. That wouldn't surprise me.

For the surprise or maliciousness, I don't doubt your sincerity, just the strategic skills of those who came up with this plan.

You do realize that Marik has been dropping on the Steiner front since CW opened AND in Kurita when the wormhole opened, correct? I just want to make sure that's understood. If they don't have to worry about the Davion front, what assurances do we (the FedCom) have?

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

If you want to have some people dedicated to speaking to Davion and communicating with the rest of Steiner that would be incredible. We want to talk to you, we want to coordinate with you and we want to work together. Currently though that consists of 2 or 3 of us having to try and speak to 6-10 people, not all of whom respond and some of whom may respond but not end up getting the word out to all of their members.

Much like Davion, Steiner isn't a single unified unit. There are definitely larger units out there (the 5th RCT that I'm a part of, for example), but I'm not seeing them mentioned in the above posts. There are huge numbers of PUGs. Add to that we have a huge Euro presence. Were they contacted? Was mention made on the forums, where people are likely to see it? Because I don't remember seeing it.

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

We did reach out to leadership. Everyone we could get ahold of. If you want better relations with Davion we need a hand coming back across the aisle. We want your input and involvement and coordination but it can feel at times like it's something we have to shake out of you.

From what I've seen, Davion's been largely absent in an organized fashion. It's good to see you back, but with Liao, Marik, and Kurita knocking at your door, you should begin to get a sense for what Steiner's been dealing with since CW started.

We have a good ally in Davion because your PUGs do drop on the Clan border. That's appreciated, especially since there isn't a way we can really return the favor. But this deal severely lacks in insight of just how big the problem with Marik is for House Steiner. To us, they're our House Kurita, except we have even fewer resources to face them down with.

Marik has very good pilots and very good units. With our main organized units focused on the Clans (not wanting to become Kurita, with our capital surrounded and half our space gone), this is what was likely meant by "we don't care."

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Give us 1 or 2 people to talk to who we can consistently get ahold of and this sort of misunderstanding won't happen.

Forum, MischiefSC - there's a forum right here and you can talk to ALL of us. It's not like this is a sneak attack.

Even knowing this plan, there are some great gaping holes in the logic behind it. I'm not sure who the tactical genius is that put this thing together, but I'll be real honest here: it's a dumb move.

You are relying on too many variables to go perfectly. You need the completely unpredictable algorithm to latch onto the corridor you want. You need Marik to stay loyal to the deal. You need Steiner to stay loyal to the deal while you hand away Steiner worlds. You need Kurita to focus on Marik once they engage and pull the pressure off the Davion front. You need...

You get what I'm saying here?

This is not a well thought-out plan and it smacks of desperation.

I get it - Kurita is pushing hard into your space and the only allied border you have (Steiner) is being slowly whittled away by Marik. Add to that Steiner can't drop in your space to help out and, of course, you have similar population problems to our House.

But this deal...

Let me spell it out for you:

"Dear Marik

Even though you have been running roughshod over House Steiner, we have a great deal for you. We'll take some Steiner worlds uncontested and then you can have them for free as long as you open a front against Kurita. Cool?"

If the agreement had been:

"Truce. When the algorithm opens the Davion corridor to Kurita, we will let you take it uncontested so that you can open a front to Kurita. Don't push on our worlds, and we won't push on yours."

Fine. No problem with that. You're giving away your own territory to a rival Faction, but it's a lesser of two evils things. I get that.

But giving away worlds from the only Faction you border that ISN'T invading you...

Finally, again, I'll note that Marik had an eerily similar deal on the table with Kurita: "We'll just use the wormhole to open a front with the Clans!"

Did you see how that turned out? Marik snatched twelve planets before Kurita began to question the alliance.

I'll run this by my own unit and see what they have to say.

[edited to fix grammar and spelling errors and try to tone down the snarkiness...mostly]

Edited by Dawnstealer, 20 February 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Musashi Alexander]

Or perhaps accepting an HK ceasefire would achieve the same result for Davion?

[Dawnstealer]

Musashi Alexander, on 20 February 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Or perhaps accepting an HK ceasefire would achieve the same result for Davion?

Kurita's been pretty honorable on our shared front. I have a few good friends in Marik, but when it goes to trusting Factions as a whole, I'd be far more likely to make a handshake deal with Kurita than Marik.

Man, this is scarily similar to Battletech lore...

[SteelWarrior]

Yea Kurita has left Steiner alone for the majority of the time, same as FRR. Anyone bordering the clans. I know we took a few planets from Steiner but never a real push on them

[Vlad Ward]

What really happened in a nutshell:

Marik lost their wormhole.

A few people in Marik are really, really mad at Kurita and want an attack lane into them.

Davion are also really mad at Kurita.

Marik asks Davion for a lane to Kurita.

Davion thinks giving Marik a lane into Kurita would work result in Kurita getting what for, pip pip.

Davion sees easiest route for Marik requires them to move their Steiner attack lane.

Davion attacks Steiner.

Davion sends a couple PMs to a couple dudes to let them know about the deal they already made with one of Steiner's most active enemies involving their space.

Davion does not understand why this bothers Steiner.

You guys are great. Don't ever stop.

[Dawnstealer]

Vlad Ward, on 20 February 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

What really happened in a nutshell:

(snip)

Pretty much that, yes.

And I get the strategy and it's a relatively sound one if they were ceding their own territory. But they're ceding OURS. If this thing blows up in Davion's face, and you know better than most that it will, taking those worlds BACK is going to be a serious problem.

The only way Steiner could accomplish that is if we pulled focus from the Clan front, and our single-mindedness on that front is both why Marik's giving us a ****** exam and why CJF, despite their daily gains, hasn't surrounded Tharkad.

We have a standing (and obvious) agreement with Davion to not attack. This was something made very clear to all of us and me, being someone who started this game as an RPG back in the 80s, I'm not even sure why it's possible for Davion and Steiner to attack one another.

Kurita and Steiner are in a similar boat, but we evolved two different strategies. The FRR, Kurita, and Steiner have left each other largely alone out of necessity: the Clan threat is too great.

Steiner basically ceded our southern border to Marik, who was more than happy to take it, while Kurita regained numbers by taking Davion worlds while running away from the Clans. While we've done a remarkable job of slowing CJF, the numbers would seem to suggest you guys did it right.

As I said above, it feels like a desperate move.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 20 February 2015 - 01:33 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Vlad Ward, on 20 February 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

What really happened in a nutshell:

Marik lost their wormhole.

A few people in Marik are really, really mad at Kurita and want an attack lane into them.

Davion are also really mad at Kurita.

Marik asks Davion for a lane to Kurita.

Davion thinks giving Marik a lane into Kurita would work result in Kurita getting what for, pip pip.

Davion sees easiest route for Marik requires them to move their Steiner attack lane.

Davion attacks Steiner.

Davion sends a couple PMs to a couple dudes to let them know about the deal they already made with one of Steiner's most active enemies involving their space.

Davion does not understand why this bothers Steiner.

You guys are great. Don't ever stop.

[Dawnstealer]

Roadbeer, on 20 February 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Man, this "awesome deal Davion put together" for Marik must be causing epic gigglefits on your side of the border. If this is the strategy employed by the Federated Suns to deal with a three-front aggression, I'm beginning to understand why they're getting slammed so hard.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 20 February 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Stoned Prophet]

Ys yes, let the butthurt FLOW steiners!

[Dawnstealer]

Stoned Prophet, on 20 February 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Ys yes, let the butthurt FLOW steiners!

This isn't butthurt, Stoned Prophet - this is wondering why our ally is dropping on our worlds. And the answer was unsatisfactory.

"Butthurt" would be "whyyyyeeee are you guys attacking ussssss????"

For my part, I'm trying to let someone, hopefully someone with better tactical sense, know that this is a stupid plan.

[Wild Hog]

I was the Steiner rep consulted well before the attack occurred. Aylward is well aware that I do not speak for House Steiner as a whole, and it was up to me to spread the word about this plan. It was also planned for me to put together a 12 man and go have some fights there. Unfortunately, real life happened and I spent most of the evening afk.

I would encourage more House Steiner group leaders to attend the next SL meeting. I firmly believe there are possibilities there, and we need to be better represented.

[MischiefSC]

I get why you are upset. Please feel free to swing into the Davion ts any day or every day. We would love more regular coordination with Steiner. We have a unified leadership and have since the first week - you can pop in and speak with them whenever or even just message one of them and know they keep in regular contact.

The forums are a bad place to try and discuss or coordinate inter faction strategy or problems between allies. Davion would love better communication and coordination with Steiner, just need some reaching back across the aisle to do so.

Edited by MischiefSC, 20 February 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[Scoops Kerensky]

It sounds like the communication has been done already and Steiner wasn't invited.

[Dawnstealer]

Wild Hog, on 20 February 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

I was the Steiner rep consulted well before the attack occurred. Aylward is well aware that I do not speak for House Steiner as a whole, and it was up to me to spread the word about this plan. It was also planned for me to put together a 12 man and go have some fights there. Unfortunately, real life happened and I spent most of the evening afk.

I would encourage more House Steiner group leaders to attend the next SL meeting. I firmly believe there are possibilities there, and we need to be better represented.

And all due respect to the 6th, as I've dropped with you guys a few times, but as I said above: this is not a good plan. This has the potential to blow up in the faces of both our Houses very badly, and the rewards (a distracted Kurita) isn't a great potential payoff.

Let's say everything goes perfectly and Marik opens this front on Kurita's border. Now Kurita is fighting on four fronts. They're already losing ground to CSJ. You think Kurita's bad, wait until the Clans are scratching at your border - if I were Davion, I'd rather have Kurita, with their IS mechs and split focus, than a unified Clan front and Kurita gone.

Coming to some sort of agreement with Marik makes sense, but this plan...

Yeesh, guys...

Edited by Dawnstealer, 20 February 2015 - 03:21 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

I'm mostly just curious: If Steiner asked Davion to stop and immediately return any worlds taken in this way, would they?

It feels more like these invitations are an attempt to explain why Davion is doing X instead of asking permission for Davion to do X. Like there's this unwritten assumption that Steiner's big units (since they lack a "high command") were just gonna be cool with Davion doing whatever they want with their space.

[Dawnstealer]

Vlad Ward, on 20 February 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

I'm mostly just curious: If Steiner asked Davion to stop and immediately return any worlds taken in this way, would they?

It feels more like these invitations are an attempt to explain why Davion is doing X instead of asking permission for Davion to do X. Like there's this unwritten assumption that Steiner's big units (since they lack a "high command") were just gonna be cool with Davion doing whatever they want with their space.

After talking to a few people in my unit, that's exactly what happened. They talked to one guy in one unit and figured they had their bases covered.

I'm actually okay with seeing how this plays out, but I'm reserving the right to drop a big, fat "I told you so" when Marik says "lolno" to giving back planets. Or when the algorithm doesn't play nice and they just keep on driving into Davion (or Steiner) territory "until it turns the right way."

Seriously, I should try to pull one of these deals with CJF:

"Okay, guys - we want to attack CW. If you give us a lane through your space, we'll attack them..."