29 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

As much as I drive a lot of heavier mechs due to wanting to review them, I've always have been fond of Lights, so it's been a great pleasure for me to drive something that wasn't a Light for a bit. For the record, the Mist Lynx is still bad, and I value the Locust over it.... but that's just me.

I don't think I've had a reason to field PPCs/ERPPCs on a Light mech although there were times when that was the meta and even Lights were prepared to field it. Since the PPC is woefully ineffective when a mech is unquirked (a problematic aspect in the current balance), the Panther becomes a "proper" platform for it because of the quirks. Still, it is supposed to be a representative platform and as such should be beneficiary of said status.

However, we are saddled with the fact that such a build contributes to a "slow light". For the most part, it relegated the Raven-2X and 4X into a sub-tier of Lights where their speed is not a defining factor, but rather their firepower. Failure to fit in above average firepower would inevitably make the chassis a wasted effort... and that remains part of the problem to a degree.

"3 is a magic number" and so let it be.

1) Variants - Do I have to carry a PPC?
2) Comparisons - Look ma, it's not a Mist Lynx!
3) Future - Please requirk the Resistance variant better


1) Variants - That shield arm is your best friend

The best comparison I can think of that most represents how you'd want to use the mech is most similar to a Commando-1D. The unlikelihood that you'd ever use a Commando is another matter, so I guess I could use a Spider-5D as a better/more realistic alternate example. The arm is your shield, and you'd best make that happen as such. Otherwise, you're going to have a bad day.

So, let me list the variants from worst to best as that will properly color my commentary...

PNT-10K - The resistance variant gets the shaft IMO as it gets "more JJs" than it'll ever really need or want while getting the fewest hardpoints possible. That and a mediocre ERPPC quirk is embarrassingly bad. I ended up using 2 LPL because of it (14 tons of weapons is a lot after all). The issue is really the heat generation that builds up quickly as that is a natural issue of the ERPPC. The PPC quirk on the 9R is far more acceptable relatively speaking. Nonetheless, the quirks do nothing of value.

While it is set up to be a dual AMS mech, but the mech's quirks screws up with its synergy. Even a engine cap increase from 250 to 265 would be a massive improvement for this variant instead of mass JJ inflation. At least some of the quirks allow for some improvements for non-quirk usage... but ironically the 9R does it better too.

PNT-8Z - I ended up building it like my common Raven-3L build (ironically, that was the challenge/event's mech) and it works out more or less nicely. Despite having to use 250XL engines at the cap (which is very important and best salvaged from the Enforcers - assuming you bought them in the pack as well). Bringing attention to the pewpew (laser) arm's quirks allows for less facetime, allowing you to hit and run optimally. While missiles in the CT is kinda bad, this is a better platform for it when combined with Streaks as a complement than the 10K (which struggles on the energy hardpoint front as it is).

It can be built well enough to hold itself vs other Lights... and sometimes that's all you can ask for. Running 2 LL isn't very appealing though as you limit your backup weapon options vs other Lights...

PNT-9R - I actually like this variant the most because having all the good stuff in the arms. I mean, you COULD use missiles but it's mostly a waste (hello Jenner-K). Running with the PPC quirk with the incredible other bonuses (heat gen, energy range increase) is what the 10K wished it could have, but doesn't. It's sad isn't it? The best comparison I can think of is a mini-Wolverine-6K... trading out the head laser for JJs. It's great for torturing players from a distance with the occasional brawling. Still, minimizing facetime is helpful of course, but it's easy to be confident to get into the match when the quirks work on your favor for energy weapons...

The base idea for the build I ran though used to be run on a Jenner and Firestarter. While those mechs probably are more effective at it (with the engine cap considerations), it's pretty manageable on the Panther...

So... with all the said... let's go with the comparisons shall we?


2) Comparisons - There is no wrong answer... just a bunch of better ones...

vs Jenner - The Jenner got screwed quirkwise (as of this post), but for the most part the speed advantage of the Jenner is negated a bit by the CT.. but mostly piloting would negate some of those disadvantages. I think the shield arm on the Panther gives it a greater advantage for durability as it's woefully needed to fend off attackers.

vs Raven - Most of the ideas for Panther build ideas were stolen off existing ideas on a Raven (for me anyways), so they are naturally closer together than you'd think. Then again, the oversized leg hitboxes of a Raven don't help here. The Raven has more speed than the Panther... but most of the variants don't have JJs. So, it's alright.

vs Firestarter - Unfortunately, the Firestarter as currently constituted is better, despite not having missile hardpoints. The Firestarter doesn't have to worry about durability because it can use both arms to shield while having more torso weapons (best used in the FS9-A or FS9-S) than anything else. It's hard to argue how great that is. The Panther is better sticking to PPCs/LLs and ranging as much as possible until forced to combat the Firestarter. Still, a good Panther build can compete with some of the niche Firestarter builds, but as a whole the Firestarter is better.

Having said that... is there a future to the Panther?


3) Future - Is it possible to make the ERPPC suck less - aka "Where's mah Cicada-3C quirks?"

It's actually sad that the Resistance variant sucks. It's hard to explain how bad it is w/o understanding the quirks involved relative to the heat generated.

For a LIGHT mech, you are running closer to generally 10 DHS unless you use low tonnage weapons like medium lasers as the base of your firepower. The Panther does not do this naturally, and the resistance variant forces you to choose large energy as a result (2E limits you greatly) to make up for this.

The Cicada-3C in theory should have been the "standard" for the ERPPC quirks being similar in nature (although, the 3C needs another energy hardpoint because it stinks vs its own chassis, but that's another story). The 3C has also the tonnage to add more BECAUSE of the large engine that most people would use in the first place too. The Panther has none of this.

So if the ERPPC quirk were closer to the Cicada-3C, it would probably be more acceptable... in addition to probably a missile heat generation quirk. You have so few hardpoints.. not being able to make the most of them through quirks is practically unacceptable. The other variants are ironically "just fine". That's what makes the quirks for this baffling.


I'm still not finished grinding the Panther yet (just need 10k+ each for each variant before mastery) and I still have to get my Champion thread posted soon/today (it needs some editing and downtime for taking for so long). The Enforcer is next on the list, and I honestly hope it is the 50 tonner I'd call "meta" (because, the 50 tonner bracket is mired in mediocrity). Unfortunately, I'm telling you right now... the PGI variant is just bad on this labrat's buildability instincts.

We'll see.

[Brody319]

yea the usual 35 tonner is good

[FupDup]

I honestly decided to completely screw chasing the Panther's quirks and just made my own builds. PPCs and ERPPCs are just so bleh even with quirks.


10K: 2 ERLL + 2 SSRM2
8Z: ERLL + 2 MPL + I forgot which missiles, was it 2 LRM5? It was real derpy.
9R: ERLL + 3 ML + SRM6

Laser vomit yayyyyyyy


In general, I think all Panthers could use more damage output, because they feel less powerful than a more "normal" light loadout, much less a medium that can travel at similar speeds while being much tankier. A Clan light can actually use something dumb like 2 LPL and nothing else but still be a bit stronger (and tougher) than the Panther...

The PPC and ERPPC velocities need to be cranked up to at least 50-60% to emphasize the long-range sniper role rather the mid-short range. The LL variant needs reduced energy heat. All of them need their missile range removed and exchanged for something else (i.e. more missile cooldown).


As a side note, I think it's sad and funny when Panthers put all of their eggs in one basket by not equipping anything outside of the right arm...I actually lost a match like this because my two Panther teammates couldn't help me fight the remaining Timberwolf and Panther on the enemy team.

Edited by FupDup, 24 February 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[Aethon]

I think you and I received different Panthers...now that I think of it, though, I would not turn down even better ERPPC quirks for my 10K.

...or my Vindicator 1AA, for that matter.

Edited by Aethon, 24 February 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[Fat Mark]

Horrible wee beastie .... I canee find any way to use it that doesnee leave me wishing I bought a spider instead!

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Why the hate on the lynx..... Its not amazing but it's capable with 2xSRM4 and some small pulses.

Is it a firestarter? No but it's not end of the world terrible either.

[stjobe]

Deathlike, on 24 February 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

The unlikelihood that you'd ever use a Commando is another matter

Heretic!

As a die-hard Commando pilot (who occasionally made a ghetto Panther out of one), I found the actual Panther... surprisingly hard to like.

I'm warming up to the wee beasties though, and when the worst of the rust is polished off my (ER)PPC targeting skills I might just find myself with a new favourite.

[HARDKOR]

PANTHER PNT-10K 3 2 1 2.00 2 1 2.00 841 3,527 00:23:14

PANTHER PNT - 8Z 30 20 9 2.22 22 13 1.69 9,950 37,636 04:07:23

PANTHER - PNT9R 8 5 3 1.67 11 4 2.75 2,487 12,948 01:15:17
3 LL on the 8Z, 2 PPC 2 ML on the 9R, used gxp to level on the hero mech - YMMV

Edited by HARDKOR, 24 February 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The 9R has a lot of good energy quirks.

I run mine without a PPC.

Im at work, so the build might be a bit off. Basically though, I run 1 LPLaser, 2 MLasrers, an SRM (4 I think) and I think an XL245 (runs 113 before speed tweak, about 125 kph after).

I also ran with 1 LPLaser and 3 MLasers (the drill), but it is a bit too hot IMO.

The 9R stays cooler than the 8Z oddly enough when doing laser vomit (even when using the 8Z's quirked LLasers).

Overall, I like 9R the best (although the 10K can deliver a solid punch with 1 ERPPC and 2 SRM4s).

[HARDKOR]

Yeah, but the burn time on the 8Z turns it into a nice jump sniper. It's a fast enough shot that you barely have to expose yourself. It does great in slower paced games; a truly great poker. Terrible if you get pushed hard though or your team is rushing.

[STEF_]

Panther is not bad at all.
Low engine, high alpha.
It's not the classic scout because low speed, pilot must not go around solo.

That said, panther tank and spread damage, and it's not easily legged.... or at least it's not happening to me...

Quirks are meh, and ppc/er-ppc are just meh if you have only one. If you mount 2, important back-up weapons lack, and too low dps.
LL makes expose panther too much time, so no thanks.
So I ended to screw up quirks, and have built my panthers with lpl/mpl and srm4 loadout.


The tier 3 in the meta list, is a little unfair, 9R is a tier 2, imo.

My panther's kdr is around 1,50 but it's getting higher after speed tweak. (and 9R has kdr 1,7 with w/lratio 1,8).

Firestarter are better, but I see panther at the same tier level of jenner/raven, but with very different game role.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 24 February 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 24 February 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

I honestly decided to completely screw chasing the Panther's quirks and just made my own builds. PPCs and ERPPCs are just so bleh even with quirks.


10K: 2 ERLL + 2 SSRM2
8Z: ERLL + 2 MPL + I forgot which missiles, was it 2 LRM5? It was real derpy.
9R: ERLL + 3 ML + SRM6

Laser vomit yayyyyyyy

I see what you did there.

I ended up using a PPC on just the 9R, so it is what it is. I could probably up some some smurfy links at some point...

Quote

In general, I think all Panthers could use more damage output, because they feel less powerful than a more "normal" light loadout, much less a medium that can travel at similar speeds while being much tankier. A Clan light can actually use something dumb like 2 LPL and nothing else but still be a bit stronger (and tougher) than the Panther...

Agreed, but you'd have to reduce the cooldown (and indirectly heat) a bit more achieve said means...

Quote

The PPC and ERPPC velocities need to be cranked up to at least 50-60% to emphasize the long-range sniper role rather the mid-short range. The LL variant needs reduced energy heat. All of them need their missile range removed and exchanged for something else (i.e. more missile cooldown).

Yea... we can always thank the man who shall not be named for the PPC velocity issues with just the BASE unquirked weapon....

I'd still want some missile heat generation reduction though.

Quote

As a side note, I think it's sad and funny when Panthers put all of their eggs in one basket by not equipping anything outside of the right arm...I actually lost a match like this because my two Panther teammates couldn't help me fight the remaining Timberwolf and Panther on the enemy team.

You're not wrong, but it's hard to want to do that on the 9R given how MWO and having one missile hardpoint is just not quite where it needs to be.

Aethon, on 24 February 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

I think you and I received different Panthers...now that I think of it, though, I would not turn down even better ERPPC quirks for my 10K.

...or my Vindicator 1AA, for that matter.

All I care about is heat and trolling capabilities.

DV McKenna, on 24 February 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Why the hate on the lynx..... Its not amazing but it's capable with 2xSRM4 and some small pulses.

Is it a firestarter? No but it's not end of the world terrible either.

It's all about the arms. Can't use to shield... that's the difference between surviving and being effective. Lack of torso/head weapons is the difference maker if most of your weapons are on the arms.

stjobe, on 24 February 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Heretic!

As a die-hard Commando pilot (who occasionally made a ghetto Panther out of one), I found the actual Panther... surprisingly hard to like.

I'm warming up to the wee beasties though, and when the worst of the rust is polished off my (ER)PPC targeting skills I might just find myself with a new favourite.

You're the heretic! Besides, I'd knew you'd respond.

They play for the most part how I'd think they would run, but I guess it's just ironic the 9R is the better variant for PPC usage...

MeiSooHaityu, on 24 February 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

The 9R has a lot of good energy quirks.

I run mine without a PPC.

Im at work, so the build might be a bit off. Basically though, I run 1 LPLaser, 2 MLasrers, an SRM (4 I think) and I think an XL245 (runs 113 before speed tweak, about 125 kph after).

I also ran with 1 LPLaser and 3 MLasers (the drill), but it is a bit too hot IMO.

The 9R stays cooler than the 8Z oddly enough when doing laser vomit (even when using the 8Z's quirked LLasers).

Overall, I like 9R the best (although the 10K can deliver a solid punch with 1 ERPPC and 2 SRM4s).

The 8Z doesn't have heat generation quirks... AT ALL. The 9R has the best quirks of the bunch. The 10K has like half of the good quirks...

It's hard to imagine what the second energy weapon would be when the first weapon is the ERPPC... which is a giant synergy problem.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Deathlike, that's why I think the 10k does well with the ERPPC / SRM combo. When I play with Limited hard points, I tend to prefer a higher FLD style load out. It's the same reason why I settled with the 2 PPCs in the Vindi 1AA. Higher up front damage to make up for less overall weapons.

I see the 8Z being ok for ranged attack with the quirked LLaser, but it just gets a bit too hot for sustained attacks (at least before 2x basics).

The 9R just seems like the laser vomit king. I think that's why I like it the most. It's probably the same reason I like the Vindi 1R for laser vomit too.

I guess that's why I say the Panther reminds me of a mini-Vindicator so much.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 24 February 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Deathlike]

MeiSooHaityu, on 24 February 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Deathlike, that's why I think the 10k does well with the ERPPC / SRM combo. When I play with Limited hard points, I tend to prefer a higher FLD style load out. It's the same reason why I settled with the 2 PPCs in the Vindi 1AA. Higher up front damage to make up for less overall weapons.

Well, I'm not a SRM2 guy...

I tried 1 ERPPC + 2 SSRM2s... I gave up on it because it was just too hot and inconsistent for what I needed it to do.

The 1AA was alright for what it was.

Quote

I see the 8Z being ok for ranged attack with the quirked LLaser, but it just gets a bit too hot for sustained attacks (at least before 2x basics).

Yes, that's part of the problem. Considering you could run essentially a 3L's loadout (plus JJs), you weren't too far off from having a decent build... it would just be slower and you'd have to be a lot more careful.

Quote

The 9R just seems like the laser vomit king. I think that's why I like it the most. It's probably the same reason I like the Vindi 1R for laser vomit too.

The 1R was a stable platform for what it is... but it's all about that sub-250 engine...

Those quirks are ridiculous on the 9R, and those should be kept (because it's not honestly going to compete with the rest of the 35-tonners as effectively w/o it).

That generic 15% heat generation reduction is pretty significant..

Quote

I guess that's why I say the Panther reminds me of a mini-Vindicator so much.

I see Commando-1D and Wolverine-6K... in some ways I'd like to block out my Vindicator experience (well, the 1X's anyways).

[terrycloth]

9R has the -15% heat, so I gave it large lasers and an SRM6. It's not very good, but I think that's because it's the one that didn't get a 250XL. 64kph is, in fact, too slow. (but it's better than the enforcer stuck using a 140 STD hand-me-down engine from the panther it swapped with; 45kph is insanely slow)

8Z is best, 3mpl and 2srm4 is pretty nasty, even against other lights. It can usually chase them off.

10K is... um... I guess it does okay overall? I have it stock-plus with one ERPPC and one ASRM4. It seems like two ERPPCs would be better but there's no way it could take the heat. One ERPPC is manageable. Removing artemis and going 2xSRM4 would probably improve it.

[Fate 6]

I've found my own Panthers pretty useful and fun.

That said, when I see an enemy Panther I'm not afraid at all.

[1453 R]

I’ve actually been having an absolute blast with my Panther-10K.

Now don’t get me wrong, it’s still one of those ‘Mechs that relies as much on the enemy being a bunch of derpalongs as it does on your own skill – what another poster above said about the ‘Mech being utterly awful in the face of a heavy push is absolutely true – but in running mine recently whilst helping a buddy learn the game (NEW PLAYERS DO EXIST O_O), I’ve discovered that these suckers feel a touch more durable than even my Firestarters did, and Firestarters are pretty infamous for being more durable than half the game’s fifty-tonners.

The armament is indeed anemic – I actually run mine Super Stock-style at the moment, with the one ER PPC and a single (non-Artemis) SRM-4, with all eight jets – but first of all, I’ve noticed a definite difference between eight jets on the 10K and four jets on the 9R I’m grinding out now. The 9R just doesn’t have the kick you get after the first half-second or so of acceleration on the 10K, and I very quickly grew used to making jumps in my 10K I just can’t make in the 9R. All those jets and the extra oomph loading up on them gives me helps me keep that single ER PPC in play as often as possible. I don’t generally score more than three to four hundred damage in it, and four is a pretty dang good game, but I do get plenty of kills, and moreover I survive the match more often than not, even in something as ‘flimsy’ as a 35-tonner. The Panther’s reduced size and skinny, lanky profile are pretty sizeable soft benefits – it looks more like a 30-tonner or even a bulkier 25-tonner than a 35-tonner.

Definitely some issues on the sucker, though. It’s on the bottom end of the acceptable speed curve for light ‘Mechs, and if a Firestarter deigns to notice you hanging around the back poking his buddies you’re pretty much just flat hosed. The Panther has no anti-light capabilities whatsoever, not a single one of them, but I’ve had more success than I figured I would abusing the everlovin’ hell out of those jump jets and keeping that PPC burning as often as possible against larger targets.

And frankly? The Panther-10K is just the most outright fun I’ve had in a light ‘Mech in a long, long time. It feels a lot like I always figured piloting a Pack Hunter would feel, and working on the thing has been doing wonders for my ability to steer PPC fire. The other two are almost certainly better from the standpoint of just being able to sling more firepower – I gifted a Fire pack to my new-player buddy to give him something fun to play with that isn’t a damn trial and he’s taken a real shine to the DuaLarge 8Z – but my 10K got me halfway to the Champion challenge without me even really trying to do that, over the course of about six hours on Saturday with a great deal of that spent explaining the game and fiddling in ‘Mechlabs. That can’t be all bad.

I like it a lot, and you can’t tell me otherwise

[0bsidion]

I can't seem to be able to kill anything with it. I've tried a couple different builds, but it doesn't seem to matter. In my hands this thing is every bit as lethal as a wet noodle.

[Mad Strike]

Whoever succesfully piloted an adder or a kit fox before will understand how to use a panther.

At least i got kill streaks of 4 per match since day one stacking quirks with modules....no 2 ppc/erppc is a terrible idea , same goes for changing quirks just because some people can't figure out how to use them.

I've made a topic the first week we had them and had a lot of positive coments from that mech.

So a lot of people is satisfied with it.

Edited by strikebrch, 24 February 2015 - 02:22 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

You woefully underestimate the power of the CT missile hardpoints. ERPPC and 2x SRM4s is extremely deadly. LL and 2x SRM4s is a bit harder to justify as an overall payload, but it is surprisingly effective. 3 MPLs and an SRM6 is deadly close-in. You can run 4 MPLs, but it gets very hot very quickly.