291 replies to this topic

[process]

The devs could take Team Fortress 2 as an example. In attack/defend mode, the maps are generally biased towards the attacker, while the defender is given strategic if limited locations to thwart their advance. This is accomplished with favorable terrain and advancing spawn points. The final checkpoint or objective is generally equally challenging for both attacker and defender.

The spawns also provide protection for both teams, although an aggressive opponent could conceivable box a team in their spawn. Having multiple egress points makes it more difficult for this to happen. The maps are also set up such that sitting in your spawn doesn't allow you to defend the final objective.

Edited by process, 30 March 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Romeo Deluxe]

More suggestions on my part:
-buff dropship laser damage
-dropships get a powerful ECM that can not be countered
-dropships deploy smoke grenades; pilot needs to know his base and run from the red triangles
-dropships put a high HP shield on mechs (don't know it fits with lore and not really a fan of this idea)
-give dropships LRM's that fire a volley a little further out than lasers reach
-dropships EMP if there are enemies in a radius of drop; forces a shutdown that affects everyone, including friendlies, but not the one being dropped as it fires just before releasing mech(s)

Since dropships zoom in and leave the above effects are of course temporary.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 30 March 2015 - 01:14 PM.

[InRev]

Sulphur is reeeeeally easy to spawn camp. Like, laughably easy. That map needs fixing or removal.

The other maps are generally fine though. If you get spawncamped on them, you probably goofed badly.

[process]

Romeo Deluxe, on 30 March 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

More suggestions on my part:
-buff dropship laser damage
-dropships get a powerful ECM that can not be countered
-dropships deploy smoke grenades; pilot needs to know his base and run from the red triangles
-dropships put a high HP shield on mechs (don't know it fits with lore and not really a fan of this idea)
-give dropships LRM's that fire a volley a little further out than lasers reach
-dropships EMP if there are enemies in a radius of drop; forces a shutdown that affects everyone, including friendlies, but not the one being dropped as it fires just before releasing mech(s)

Since dropships zoom in and leave the above effects are of course temporary.

An alternate solution is to have the attacker's landing zone fully staffed with three dropships. Every time a wave of mechs respawns, the dropship(s) on the ground takes off, and the new dropship lands to take its place. The mechs then walk out of the dropships, and can use the dropships as cover if needed. This way there's always a defense emplacement, while retaining the landing mechanic.

I think this would add some nice asymmetry to the concept of the defenders spawning and deploying from a hanger.

Edited by process, 30 March 2015 - 01:25 PM.

[Mystere]

Mirkk Defwode, on 30 March 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

You missed the point, I was merely pointing out that there are other options that function. Whether they're arcadey or not they're a better user experience than what we currently have. This is also entirely without being innovative to the approach. You're welcome to make other suggestions to correct this. All I've done here is point out the common FPS/Moba approaches

You just mentioned the 2 biggest philosophical problems I have with the game.

And, by the way, this is not a MOBA, this is:

Mechwarrior

Edited by Mystere, 30 March 2015 - 05:08 PM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Mystere, on 30 March 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

You just mentioned the 2 biggest philosophical problems I have with the game.

And, by the way, this is not a MOBA, this is:

Mechwarrior

It's also a game. an Action Shooter Game at that...So essentially a 1st Person or 3 Person shooter as you can pick your camera.

And CW maps are styled after MOBA map design, FPS games typically are more open like the other game modes and maps in the public queue.

Either way we're back to traditional game modes presented and also typical game types. More things that are not really innovative.

Personally I'd rather hedge toward Sim and Entertaining gameplay designs...but that ship has sailed.

Philsophically speaking you shouldn't have an issue trying to improve gameplay for all users. Suggesting other working systems that promote better gameplay in their basic design helps facilitate a change. You're asking me though, a consumer, to do the design work and innovate for them?

Hell if I were going to be copying a company on a respawn system game mode. I'd be looking at Guerilla and their Warzone gametype from Killzone 2 through Shadowfall. That's a lot of fun. Point based on randomly determined gametypes, Assassination mixed into the fold where you're trying to protect a single individual randomly picked from the opposing team, Assault/Defense on search and destroy objects that are separated, Delivery point stuff, pick up and object and carry it to another location, Capture and Hold for territories, Capture and Hold King of the Hill, All in a single game type. Funny you'd think others would copy that because it's a lot of fun.

I really can go on, but if I were developing this I'd be redoing a lot from the ground up, not just respawn behaviors for the only respawn gametypes, but core systems level work.

PS: Big text doesn't make it more relevant. I've been a battletech fan for 25 years. I don't disagree with many of the decisions PGI has made, but I'm also not under the employ and it's not my job to do the design work for them.

[aughten]

process, on 30 March 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

An alternate solution is to have the attacker's landing zone fully staffed with three dropships. Every time a wave of mechs respawns, the dropship(s) on the ground takes off, and the new dropship lands to take its place. The mechs then walk out of the dropships, and can use the dropships as cover if needed. This way there's always a defense emplacement, while retaining the landing mechanic.

I think this would add some nice asymmetry to the concept of the defenders spawning and deploying from a hanger.

or maybe something easier to implement for pgi - buff the lasers and then let the dropship hover a few seconds longer after the fresh mechs drop so that those pilots can regain their bearing and see where the red doritos are positioned.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Mickey Knoxx, on 27 March 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

If you got spawn camped.. You failed to kill 12 guys who had to walk allll the way across the map to reinforce while getting shot at by your dropships. That is a player skill issue and nothing more. ggREKT

Exactly. If you've gotten to the point where your team is getting spawn camped, then you've already lost the match. Them waiting for you to come out and form up wouldn't change the outcome if you've already let them get to that point.

[Telmasa]

Stoned Prophet, on 27 March 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

OH GOD THEY SPAWN CAMPED THE LAST FOUR GUYS OH NO THEY SO TOTALLY WOULD HAVE WON IF THEY HADNT BEEN SPAWNCAMPED. NOPE. Bads are bad thats all you see with spawncamps. I have NEVER been spawncamped, probably because I dont suck enough to let them push me that hard and fold like a card table.

Mickey Knoxx, on 27 March 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

If you got spawn camped.. You failed to kill 12 guys who had to walk allll the way across the map to reinforce while getting shot at by your dropships. That is a player skill issue and nothing more. ggREKT

Scoops Kerensky, on 30 March 2015 - 08:55 PM, said:

Exactly. If you've gotten to the point where your team is getting spawn camped, then you've already lost the match. Them waiting for you to come out and form up wouldn't change the outcome if you've already let them get to that point.

These attitudes - including the people that went and liked these posts - underline everything that is wrong with Community Warfare right now.

All you are really saying is you want to be able to make use of an exploit - and if other people don't make use of the same exploits as you, then you want to be able to bash said opponent, make them feel bad, and claim that you yourself are better for choosing to abuse an exploit.

It boggles my mind that none of you think twice & find no issue, at ALL, with that kind of mindset. I don't think even Mystere goes that far.

[Averen]

Yep, that's what happens if you give one part of the players faster mechs and bigger range at the same time. It only works with a lot of cover and general environment to deny range advantages.

Especially the newer desert themed map is bad at the southern gate. If you push out a bit, almost hard to avoid with 12 timbers and crows, then you're already more than halfway in ERLL range of the drop zone. And there is no cover or place for IS mechs to actually regroup and effectively strike back. It's quite easy to just constantly pick on them at range, denying any action, getting closer and closer, until you are literally standing under their dropships.

Edited by Averen, 30 March 2015 - 09:17 PM.

[Nemesis Duck]

Come on PGI, if I'm going to lose brain cells you better make it fun.

[Lord0fHats]

Telmasa, on 30 March 2015 - 09:06 PM, said:

All you are really saying is you want to be able to make use of an exploit -

It's really not an exploit. At most, it's bad map design (nothing new there).

If you are being spawn camped, then the game has gone so horribly one sided that you were never going to win (honestly CW could use a MOBA style 'surrender' option so players who get match ups so badly one sided can just opt out and save everyone time).

Exception for Sulfurous Rift, as that map kind of has defending the drop zones as a core element for the defending team. If the attackers actually get into a position to start farming a lance, the team was poorly positioned when the attack started. often I've seen players just sit back and hide and allow an entire lance to be annihilated even though both spots where drop farming can happen are very vulnerable to a well executed push.

[Xeraphale]

Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 30 March 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

12DG yesterday attacking, they covered totally one of the drop spots , I got deployed in there, death in 3 secs, great concept of distributing your troops in battle that way xD

That moment before the dropship bays open and you see yourself surrounded by red arrows: "awww fawk, Seriously?"

On Sulpherous? Because that map has enormous design flaws and should be removed from rotation until fixed (base FAR too small, needs the gates moved 500m down the canyon and a big hole dug into the back behind omega and all the defender spawns moved in there so they dont get auto spawn camped by attackers that push into the base AT ALL)

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 31 March 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

On Sulpherous? Because that map has enormous design flaws and should be removed from rotation until fixed (base FAR too small, needs the gates moved 500m down the canyon and a big hole dug into the back behind omega and all the defender spawns moved in there so they dont get auto spawn camped by attackers that push into the base AT ALL)

yes that was sulpherous, and when people push over gamma, they go right through the spawn and the dropship will put you rught in the middle of them.

th entire map is quite weird, the "base" is very ight, yet the lanes to the gates are mostly long and superempty without any purpose at all.

and 90% of the time all rushes go over Alpha anyways which is very boring. The map truly needs some redesing.

Lord0fHats, on 30 March 2015 - 09:26 PM, said:

It's really not an exploit. At most, it's bad map design (nothing new there).

If you are being spawn camped, then the game has gone so horribly one sided that you were never going to win (honestly CW could use a MOBA style 'surrender' option so players who get match ups so badly one sided can just opt out and save everyone time).

Exception for Sulfurous Rift, as that map kind of has defending the drop zones as a core element for the defending team. If the attackers actually get into a position to start farming a lance, the team was poorly positioned when the attack started. often I've seen players just sit back and hide and allow an entire lance to be annihilated even though both spots where drop farming can happen are very vulnerable to a well executed push.

No thats not pooly positioning. Its simply the way how it works when a rush makes it beyongd the gate he can instantly stand on the spawn of Gamma, but this location also due to the hill that is past the spawnpoint is a easy to capture and hold position. And so you can block and spawnkill very easily there, you just need to get past the gate.

Edited by Lily from animove, 31 March 2015 - 02:33 AM.

[Lanancuras]

To prevent being spawn camped on Sulfurous switch around the people in the lances a bit. Once someone in Lance Alpha is dead while they're holding hill C2 switch him with an alive person from Lance Beta/Charlie before he drops; this will get him to drop in more favorable locations instead (you'll have to take command in order to do so). It's a bit time intensive though, so the person switching the people around will most likely have less time for actual combat.

I've never seen people getting spawn camped on any of the other maps so I think it's a problem which just applies to Sulfurous Rift.

[Lord0fHats]

C2 is vulnerable to a hard push from D3. While that hill offers good sight over the base towards omega, it also leaves an attacking team completely bottled with no where to run or move without tripping over each other if a flank is made. Wait for a drop ship to start coming in, spam strikes, push that line and start wiping them. I've done it myself and had it happen to me. It works when the team isn't cowering on the far side of the base playing the cover sniping game.

Granted I agree. Nay, I say every map in the game could heavily benefit from designing. PGI has gotten better at maps since closed beta when I first played, but the overall design of the maps is still rather meh.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 31 March 2015 - 04:47 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

Augustus Martelus II, on 27 March 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Is CW count in the k/d and w/l ratio?

If yes....then i understand why they lost a lot of players lol

Had played the first weeks of CW but did find out i win a lot more c-bill playing as a pug...+ more playing time.



XL or not he was doomed

xl kind of gives a hint about why, though, doesn't it? i mean enemies dont just appear at your spawn in some kind of unpleasant miracle. his team let them get him, because they werent any good.

[YCSLiesmith]

Lily from animove, on 30 March 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

the problem is quirked is mechs and clanrange + open spawn locations makes it too easy to shoot down someone from a very very safe and hidden distance.

it definately needs soem rework.

lmao its easier for clanners to spawn camp though. they can stand off at range and pick the drops off without getting messed up by dropships because clan weapons are superior at long distances. they can also tank harder on the approach so the enemy is less able to pick them apart as they advance. combine the two and you have a deathball that rolls up, ignoring the sporadic fire from their enemies and making solid trades starting from extreme range so by the time they are in IS optimal range the IS guys are already wounded. then they set up and snipe down drops. meanwhile the IS has to get in close and actually take fire from dropships to do the same thing.

[YCSLiesmith]

Romeo Deluxe, on 30 March 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

More suggestions on my part:
-buff dropship laser damage
-dropships get a powerful ECM that can not be countered
-dropships deploy smoke grenades; pilot needs to know his base and run from the red triangles
-dropships put a high HP shield on mechs (don't know it fits with lore and not really a fan of this idea)
-give dropships LRM's that fire a volley a little further out than lasers reach
-dropships EMP if there are enemies in a radius of drop; forces a shutdown that affects everyone, including friendlies, but not the one being dropped as it fires just before releasing mech(s)

Since dropships zoom in and leave the above effects are of course temporary.

heres the problem with buffing dropship damage: it becomes unreasonable to shoot mechs who are defending omega, because if you kill one, you're effectively shooting every member of your team with a large pulse laser or gauss or whatever you upgrade dropships to have. so if i roll in to kill omega and you're defending it then i am forced to avoid shooting you for fear of bringing in that dropship and killing my entire push. whoops i guess we should all just light rush all the time

Telmasa, on 30 March 2015 - 09:06 PM, said:

All you are really saying is you want to be able to make use of an exploit

Exploit? lmao the game is already over if you're getting spawn camped, it's not an exploit to shoot mechs. an exploit would be standing in a place where you can fire without being shot at, or using weird geometry for killing omega before you get the gens down or something.