172 replies to this topic

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Davers, on 30 March 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Doesn't the fact that their "tactics" work better than yours tell you something? Focused fire wins battles, in CW and in Public queues. It seems like you are the one who should be setting up private 1v1 matches.

ya what it tells me is that most large groups are nothing but cowards who arent out to test skill or actual tactics or utilize mobility. we can say whatever we want about what works or doesnt ingame but in RL a bunch of tanks/mechs standing in one spot waiting to focus fire 1 person are a bunch of ******* just asking to get hit by airpower.

i would accept their tactics as legit if they had some analog with RL military tactics but they dont they are staight out of the CS handbook.

if we had real long toms none of that ##$# would fly. you wanna stay grouped waiting for someone to direct fire at? well guess what their scout spotted you and is callin the heavy support. ya i can drop strikes on them but i only get 1 strike. if i had a real long tom that i could pop on my mech you bet i would be farmin those idiots from across the map for being dumb enough to just camp and to depend exclusively on one weapon scheme. again lowest common denominator.

in RL if your army depends on ONE weapon only, no airpower, no navy, no indirect fire, no ballistic missles your toast. all modern military tactics are built around the idea of combined arms (inf, tanks, bombers, missles est) and mobility to overun and overpower you enemy blitzkreig status. (america vs iraq for example) but we dont have mines to lay or IED's to use for asymmetric warfare. we got LASERS and gauss and thats about it. again who wants a cookie?

everything about group tactics is assbackword of what they really should be doing with tech from 3050. If LRMS even worked right these tactics wouldnt work at all because that is exactly what LRMS are meant for. flushing out entrenched enemies that are camping behind cover. but for whatever reason and PGI's infinite wisdom LRMS are useless and have no real tactical value.

I dont see large groups properly utilizing lrms and mixed loadouts. again they reduce combat to the smallest common denominator and by eliminating all other factors (some might say this is classic abuse of the ingame mechanics. kinda like you know pop-tarting? minimizing your risk maximizing your reward). and for one exclusive purpose and thats farming and one that is tuned for farming random pugs not fighting against other organized teams.

If the teams i have witnessed tuned their tactics and loadouts to fight against these kinds of teams with these kinds of tactics they would adapt a rolling thunder strategy of having having continous firepower being layed down with heavy guns and LRMS from the backlines with proper skirmishers/spotters to overwhelm and crush an enemy that is depending on using FF and camping/playing peek-a-boo.

"a bad plan is one that cannot be altered"<- this is the essense of clan laser vomit with camping/FF. it is a plan that only works against a certain opponent (pugs because they dont FF and they arent communicating like a group is) and cannot be adapted to a fluid battlefield. hence it is a bad plan, and the players that advocate it are bad players.

if we had any kind of real weapons variety (lrms that worked, long toms on our mechs, Arrow IV missle launchers) groups would cry about nothing else but "those nubs and their nub cannons why do i have to suffer against people that know how to use combined arms properly i should be allowed to camp and just use lasers/gauss and i should be allowed to farm those pugs cuz their dumb for even dropping in CW. everyone knows CW is all about "tactics" and "focus fire" so no pug should have any expectation of anything different when they drop"

again you want a cookie? or you want real tactics ingame? if groups wanted a challenge and to test their tactics THEY WOULD FIGHT OTHER GROUPS OF SIMILAR CALIBER kinda like how pro nfl players play against pro nfl players. but no again they just farm pugs and their tactics show it.

Edited by Mellifluer, 30 March 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[ZenFool]

I took the PugBucket challenge this weekend. The first twenty matches of CW were all solo drops. All of them qualified. I ran into 12 mans fewer than a quarter of those and a quarter more had 4 to 8. The other half were pugs.

Overall I won more than I lost as a pug. I also had one game attacking that was literally won in the last second. Had quite a few that were good back and forth brawls as well. Very few stomps.

Did I have to contend with new players? Yes. Were there just as many on the other side? Yes. Did they ruin my experience? Not a bit.

I would love to see populations remain higher, even if that means people in trial mechs or lrm highlanders or ac2 locusts. The larger population meant they were just as likely to see their counterparts as they were a 12 man. Even if they got a 12 man, they have a ready made excuse for the loss.

We all want good games, and I think many of us got them this weekend.

[Jon Gotham]

madhermit, on 30 March 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

No. Being stomped by coordinated teams or making a mediocre game into a second job by having to join up with a bunch of people I will never get to know in the actual world JUST to make a gamemode playable are things I am not looking for when I want to have fun.

Nah. Either they find a way to fit PUGvPUG matching into CW or no CW for me. Seeing the changes they did to CW since I last played it, I liked the changes. Not nearly as many stomps as it used to be. But still the stomps are something that just make me leave the game. They are not fun.

This is why we have the issues we do.
I joined a unit, and guess what? It's nothing like that. If I had your attitude to it I'd never have traveled to Denmark and Norway. Never met three very good (irl now) friends. Never met my current girlfriend.......never had so many laughs as I play a game....

Whilst this sort of thought process exists mwo and other online games are forever going to be in trouble unless they cater to this demographic...and in my opinion it's a sad reflection indeed.

*sits back and watches intelligent interactive entertainment burn*

[Davers]

Mellifluer, on 30 March 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

*snip*

You do make some good points about weapon balance, but most games I've played have been about fighting up close- not long distance sniper fights. Maybe you have just had bad luck (or cowardly team mates)?

But some of the problems you mention are directly attributed to the game mode, which is a frontal assault against a prepared position. Hopefully future game modes will be more about mobility and map control than destroying static targets.

[sycocys]

Mellifluer, on 30 March 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

again you want a cookie? or you want real tactics ingame? if groups wanted a challenge and to test their tactics THEY WOULD FIGHT OTHER GROUPS OF SIMILAR CALIBER kinda like how pro nfl players play against pro nfl players. but no again they just farm pugs and their tactics show it.

The only thing I can tell from your rant is that you either don't actually play CW at all, or that your unit is horrible at the game. Its one, the other or possibly both. It's very apparent that you have really not experienced CW or the tactics that teams engage in.

[Gloris]

Tom Sawyer, on 30 March 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

If you got pug stomped and it left a bad taste FIND A TEAM!

Why is this always the Solution people give?
"If getting stomped stomped because the enemy is a premade and you have pub-noobs is boring you, go get a premade and stomp pub-noobs!"

Sorry no.
I Remember when i got into a few very good 8-10 man premades with people like Lord or 228.

It was boring as hell, 0 challenge, i might as well have gone AFK and the game would have been something like a 3-48 anyway.

Where is the fun in that?

Premades running coordinated 8+ drops of Meta Only mechs is taking the fun out of the CW for me, and me turning into one of them and taking the fun out of other Pubs is not gonna make it better. You can only Stomp so many noobs before it gets boring.

I want balanced and fun2play matches, no Stomps, no matter if i'm the one getting stomped or the one stomping.


Premade players may now call me a whiner/noob/antisocial/whatever.

Edited by Gloris, 30 March 2015 - 02:43 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

sycocys, on 30 March 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

The only thing I can tell from your rant is that you either don't actually play CW at all, or that your unit is horrible at the game. Its one, the other or possibly both. It's very apparent that you have really not experienced CW or the tactics that teams engage in.

i was in at least 2 matches with you last night syc, and i dont group or join factions for CW (mostly because i cant choose my contract unless im faction leader...... why pgi why?

[BoldricKent]

Well, im pleasantly surprised by this event, still have 5 to go, fighting as solo in FRR space, which means, Claners, Claners and some more of those.Did 17 drops, 15 qualified, 8 wins....even get me a Dire with ENF-5p, average about 3 kills, 700-1100
and only 1 drop where we did Zerg thingy, but heavy mechs..rest of it was to last man/timer.
Its much more time consuming, you really need DPS mech, and JJ are real advantage.
In order to win, a Voip animator or a single tag caller is required. People do flock...premades are quite a boost,ECM mandatory- i always thought Claners use laser vomit, but they arent shy of LRM spam either, not at all....Streak boats seems to be Stromcrows exclusive.
It isnt all fun and games, but its much more edgy then PUG, a lot of arty/air strikes with bottle neck maps...push in
or stand and parish, that goes for Claners as well. Think Clan mech are still few notches above IS in every respect.
Maybe i should switch Voip on....

[Davers]

'Meta' in MWO means something different than in other games. In LoL, the top players run the meta because the small percentage differences can win games- but the other 99% of players can do well with almost every Champion in game. The slight advantages are no where near as noticeable as they are in high level play.

But in MWO the meta is noticeable at all levels of play. Even bad players are MUCH BETTER in a meta mech than in a non-meta mech. This is because there is a HUGE disparity in mech/weapon balance. There are weapons that are basically useless traps that trick players into thinking they are good and useful, when they really just are not.

[Kissamies]

Apnu, on 30 March 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

CW demands that you bring the best quirked mechs that you've fully mastered. And a lot of them, with a lot of modules, and then drop every arty and UAV you can.

That's expensive and time consuming.

So unless you always want to play the same 4 mechs, PGI's only solution is to send players back to the public queue for XP and c-bill grinding.

That alone keeps players from fully investing in CW.
Also the level of play in CW, after a team's been found for a match, is so intense people have to take breaks. And because of that intensity, that also greatly incentivizes players to bring the biggest, strongest, quirked cheese possible (at least for IS, Clans, lacking quirks are stuck with the Holy Trinity plus Loki). Meaning "mechs for fun" need not apply in CW.

Heh, I don't take CW that seriously. I have used mechs that I'm currently mastering into CW. I do get all the basics and maybe some of the elites for them first, but then I take them to CW. Apologies to temmates who consider themselves trolled by this.I did play more for real for the event, though. As for arty and UAV. I don't care about c-bill costs so much. I'm mainly after the XP and loyality points when I'm after anything.

Quote

Because of all that I wish PGI had incorporated public queue games into the umbrella of CW. The kinds of games the public queue offers (quick to find, quick to have) should involve the IS map some how. Yes we're getting 4v4, but that's going to be as intense and competitive as Invasion/Counter Attack. Not fun-fun, but intense-fun and casuals will continue to not apply.

Meanwhile casuals will grow bored of the stagnant public queue (because PGI is so focused on CW this year, its a side effect of that project) they will wander away and the community's numbers will suffer.

Public queue games should be incorporated into the IS map some how. We should be able to grind and level up mechs and earn LP w/out the intense and nerve wracking jolt that Invasion and Counter Attack modes are.

I thought about having some smaller, shorter, more publike "sideshow battles" that influence the capturing of the planet much less than the regular CW, but still have some effect. Reserving these for public que might work.

Some ideas:

Recon: 2 recon lances duking it out. 4v4 10 or 7.5 minute time limit. There's a capture point in the center of the map, but holding that only counts if time limit is reached. So the side that eliminates the enemy or holds the objective when time runs out wins.

Encounter Battle: Leading elements of the opposing forces stumbling into each other. 8v8, 15 mins. Pure skirmish.

Flanking Maneuver: Small force is sent to attack enemy's rear. 8v8 or 12v12, 15 mins. Same deal as in CW counterattack. Attacker needs to get more kills and destroy the objective.

[N0MAD]

Gloris, on 30 March 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Why is this always the Solution people give?
"If getting stomped stomped because the enemy is a premade and you have pub-noobs is boring you, go get a premade and stomp pub-noobs!"

Sorry no.
I Remember when i got into a few very good 8-10 man premades with people like Lord or 228.

It was boring as hell, 0 challenge, i might as well have gone AFK and the game would have been something like a 3-48 anyway.

Where is the fun in that?

Premades running coordinated 8+ drops of Meta Only mechs is taking the fun out of the CW for me, and me turning into one of them and taking the fun out of other Pubs is not gonna make it better. You can only Stomp so many noobs before it gets boring.

I want balanced and fun2play matches, no Stomps, no matter if i'm the one getting stomped or the one stomping.


Premade players may now call me a whiner/noob/antisocial/whatever.

+1 for this..
Mostly play solo or with a group of 2-3 friends, in most PvP games being in a large group got you into more competitive lvls playing vs other comp teams of similar skill and tech lvl, a challenge.
Here if you play in a comp lvl 8man + you may get 2 outa 10 games at best that are anywhere near a challenge.
I enjoy teamplay, i enjoy a challenge, i enjoy winning, i much prefer now to play in small 2-4 man team in Pub Q and gauge my performance on how our lance has performed win or loss.
Would love to play in a large group IF i met other like groups when i play, in this game that happens to infrequently to bother.

[Wildstreak]

Tom Sawyer, on 30 March 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

If you got pug stomped and it left a bad taste FIND A TEAM! you can profess to be a merc, a house loyalist, a clanner it does not matter. WIth good voice coms and players willing to band together and learn you can have some ever better games!

Sorry but the Teamwork excuse only goes so far.
CW has a ways to go before I consider it again.

[That Dawg]

Tom Sawyer, on 30 March 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

As the latest tournament draws to a close I wonder if a lot of the players who played CW only for the free mech will return to pug land.

hard core pugger
tried CW when it came out for a week, swore never to go back.
along comes a free mech

I actually like it better than pugs now

I had EIGHT minutes left on my premium, so knowing full well a drop would take way more, hopped in a pug match
got kills, got damage, we won, got my last inch of premium........but it still felt dirty

[Telmasa]

How To Keep Me Playing CW:

1. Prevent spawncamping, no exceptions or excuses - alter the game in whatever shape or form you need, keep the 'spawncamp' from being so much as a possibility or consideration.
2. Re-sweep the quirks. Switch to the milder, iterative approach in the manner that the Clans got.
3. Do something to consumables so that this game isn't "Consumable Warrior Online". Use your imagination, it's perfectly possible to keep consumables "useful" without making them an absolute-must-have for competitive meta-gaming.
4. Open up the older maps (as in expand the borders). The new CW map is fairly good, because it's 'wide' and doesn't involve lanes, at least not the extent the older ones do.
5. Continue working to normalize hit registration, collision physics, hitboxes, and so on - all the little variables that are involved with making sure that what I see happening on my client matches what is happening on the server (as long as ping is within a reasonable 150-200ish or below range).

Honestly, I am grateful for new content and all - but until time is spent going over what we've got now, fixing and tuning it until it really is an optimal, special experience that I can't find anywhere else...I'm finding it a struggle to justify playing CW.

If it feels more like an experiment in frustration tolerance during a B.S. contest than a competitive game against competent foes, then it's not worth playing.

Edited by Telmasa, 30 March 2015 - 08:46 PM.

[That Dawg]

ZenFool, on 30 March 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Did I have to contend with new players? Yes. Were there just as many on the other side? Yes. Did they ruin my experience? Not a bit.

I would love to see populations remain higher, even if that means people in trial mechs or lrm highlanders or ac2 locusts.

We all want good games, and I think many of us got them this weekend.

I'm lazy, what he said.

Down to my first 22 matches would have qualified.
I've since played 4-6 battles, in my new mech- and am liking CW, but ONLY if it remains like it was this weekend.
Large base-tolerable wait times, I quit when I start seeing 8-12 man drops dominating the few dozen solo players.

STFU to purists, elitists and whiners

And bring back 8 man teams IF it means lower frame rates, faster ques, faster battles.

[Lily from animove]

I doubt I go and main CW.

Simply because I love the Nova and CW with Nova is not remotely close fun.
Rewards are poop, I need a shitton of money for modules on all the mechs I like to paly from time to time and preparing the Wave 3.

CW is lousy rewards compared to solodrops or group drops.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

It was fun while the population was up, and I found out the Panther 9R is a decent CW light, but the population will not stick around. The main problem is that the effort and time to get a match do not equal the payout, win or lose, afterwards. Even in a win, there is no enduring effect noticeable to the average player. Its kind of the same reason why voter turnout is so low in the US: the average voter feels like their vote has no effect.

So the population will recede, and CW will once again become the domain of the few, the proud, the serious, and will stay that way till PGI figures out a way to make the average player's contribution have a noticeable effect. I hate it, because it caters to the instant gratification crowd, but sadly, that is a part of human nature that game designers have to account for. The effect doesn't have to even be major, or game changing, but it does have to be NOTICEABLE in the moment.

Edited by Mirumoto Izanami, 31 March 2015 - 04:48 AM.

[sycocys]

Mellifluer, on 30 March 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

i was in at least 2 matches with you last night syc, and i dont group or join factions for CW (mostly because i cant choose my contract unless im faction leader...... why pgi why?

This is funny because I played just 1 attack CW on Sunday and it was during the afternoon, and 2 only standard drops on Monday morning. Friday and Saturday I did nothing but attack, so there was 0 chance you dropped with me unless it was at 9am CST in standard drops on Monday.

Nice try though.

[Rushin Roulette]

CW is Deffinitely much better the more players are online.

However, each side needs at least 1 person to actively take command over VOIP and the matches can be very even no matter if the opponent is a 12er or made up of PUGs. Ive been playing in variying group sizes between 3 and 12 during the course of the weekend and I have sene it go either way. We won most of them with 12 players, but we still lost some to organised PUGs... It deffintiely showed if the PUG opponents were organised or not. They moved together, shot together and stayed together... and then there were teh ones who didnt use VOIP or no one felt they needed commanding... players running off in various directions, ignoring priority targets and spreading targets over the whole team.

Even when we had small group sizes of 3 or 4 of us, if one took command, explained the tactic beforehand, someone typed a few commands in chat when they had some free time and we had some easy victories with mainly PUG teammates.

TL:DR
Take command if you can use VOIP, listen to VOIP and give clear instructions beforehand, give everyone time to get ready to follow your commands (Countdown before pushing out of cover for example) and stick to the plan. Even a stupid plan is better than no plan.

[Wronka]

This weekend was my first time playing CW. I have to say as an IS pilot, I had a difficult time. I am not a bad player IMO... I use all the "good" IS mechs and they are mastered (STK-4N, TDR-9SE, TDR-5SS and a FS9-S), but I play solo. Maybe I just had bad luck in who I was matched up against/with, but it seemed to me that IS had absolutely no chance when defending. I had luck in 1 game when attacking but I did over 2200 dmg and got 11 kills myself so I like to think I was a huge reason for that win. But when defending it seemed impossible against the hard hitting clan mechs. Was I just unlucky or does clan have the upper hand? Or is it just easier to attack then it is to defend?

Not trying to complain its unbalanced or anything, but just noting my experience. I think I will go back to PUG play though, because then if I am on a ****** team, its only 5-10 minutes out of my day. Maybe if they make CW more solo player friendly I will play it more. Minus the fact of getting rolled 75% of the time, it was fun.