82 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Krivvan, on 17 April 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

The type of player that plays those kinds of games should not look towards LRMs.

I have no problems with "that type of player" not using LRMs. When I say this, realize it's probably not at you directly. My problem is with those people decrying that LRMs are horrible so no one should use them. I find LRMs fun, and very useful in my matches. (Just so you know, I don't boat them, which seems to be a point of confusion from people.) I'd suggest people use LRMs, at least to some extent at some point. Doesn't hurt to figure out how the system works, right?

With that said, yes, LRMs are less effective against more experienced players. I agree. That doesn't mean new players shouldn't use them however. Like with the stated example with Street Fighter, you wouldn't tell Street Fighter players to never use Ryu or if you do not to use his haduken because of "bad habits". (Though even experienced players in Street Fighter use the Haduken.) LRMs will only produce "bad habits" if you use them "safely" and not "effectively". Even then, if you don't boat them, they can make very handy support systems.

As an experienced player, I personally use LRMs. I also use PPCs, Lasers, ACs, etc. I carry a variety of playstyles, and I enjoy using different ones at different times. I agree with you that I enjoy seeing myself improve. I don't see LRMs hindering that improvement though. So, I see no problem with other people using LRMs in return. (I learned this game with a trial Stock Hunchback 4J. I think I've progressed well in my skills from then.)

I just don't like all the LRM hate I see. It's rather unfounded to tell all new players to hate LRMs as well and not use them. They have uses, and can be used effectively. You seem reasonable and don't seem to be in the "LRM hate" crowd. I agree with much of what you say, but I disagree with LRMs being bad to learn with and producing bad habits. That, would depend upon how they are used and what the player loads their mech out with. An LRM boat probably would produce possible bad habits (because I find boats are more likely to do the "hide and wait for locks" trick that, though possible, is not the best way to use LRMs). Just having some LRMs, or even heavy LRMs, I don't believe will hinder a newer player. (There is a reason I always suggest LRM users not to boat. I don't think it's worth the risk.)

Not to be mean, but I do think we've also gone off topic again. Myself included here.

[Bows3r]

Literally the only use of a NARC on a light 'mech is a NARC-tart Kit-Fox, with a NARC, and a ER-PPC, fire the NARC when you fire the ER-PPC. Even then, it's more or less a joke build.

Tesunie, on 16 April 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

To the question of NARC on lights, there are many ways to play this game, and depending upon what your intended role/goal is in the game will depend upon what your mech's are likely to take.

NARCs on lights can be effective. It really depends upon what you intend to be doing. They are better when LRMs are around, but as others have pointed out, it also provides information on where at least a single enemy unit is for some time, and has the bonus of not being able to be shot off or down unlike the UAV. It costs the weight of an SRM6 launcher, but a single ton of ammo is often all it needs for a battle, maybe a ton and a half (depending upon situations of course).

If you are trying to use NARCs in PUGs, your results will probably very. It's experience and c-bill making ability, as well as "damage" abilities, will depend upon if you have any LRM users on your team (notice how I didn't say boats, as not all LRM users are running LRM boats). If there are no LRM users on your team, they can still be handy.

If you are in team plays, you can have a team that can support your NARC easier, or use you as a target designator for their direct fire weapons. Sometimes, one person in the group taking less weapons to help coordinated the team faster is more helpful to the group than a mech going with more weapons and dealing more damage. This is a team game after all.

In CW, once again depends on if you are in a team or not, and if LRMs are present or not. The target information can be helpful here, but of a bit more limited use.

If you are ever in a competitive playing scene (if this is your goal), then no. NARC will be fairly useless to you and your team most likely. Same with LRMs for those players.


I'm going to presume you are like 95% (random number, not actual percentage of players) of players in this game and you are not going to be playing this competitively, at least not for now. With this statement, I'd have to say, sure. Why not use it? Honestly, I suggest one uses all the weapons in the game, at least a few times. Learn how every weapon behaves and what every weapon is capable of doing.



For actual NARC mechs I have used, I only have one NARC mech personally. It's a strange Raven 3L design and not made for everyone. It's made with a very specific (and I find fun) combat style. It's come in very handy on some teams, and other teams it was only helping itself get locks.

If you are new to this game, I'd recommend exploring NARCs at a later time, when you have more survival skills learned and have a better grasp on he concepts of this game. Otherwise, you probably will be wasting NARC pods on targets that shouldn't/don't need to be NARCed, or you'll try to "NARC all the things" which also isn't exactly overly helpful most times.

As a final note of advice, I really can't stress enough about testing out all the weapons you can in this game. Experiment with everything, at least a little bit. Check out flamers for a tiny bit. Use LRMs and see how they behave (and if you even like them). Try a Gauss and learn it's charge mechanics. Every thing you experiment with, no matter how silly it might look at times, will help you learn more about the game. Don't be afraid to ask either. As you can see, there are plenty of people here who are willing to try and help you out, from all different walks of the game.

If you HAVE to run LRM's, only use either the Awesome 8R, the Trebuchet 7M, or the Hunchback 4J. They're the only LRM boats with enough DPS and sustainability to effectively contribute to the team. Even with them you should be in a position to take some damage for the team and use your TAG to maintain effective accuracy.
Even if you're a somewhat experenced player, telling new players to run LRM's on any mech they please is absolutely stupid to say the least, and will encourage bad habits. Encouraging LRM DireWolf's is not what new players need.

Edited by Bows3r, 17 April 2015 - 09:26 PM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"If you HAVE to run LRM's, only use either the Awesome 8R, the Trebuchet 7M, or the Hunchback 4J. They're the only LRM boats with enough DPS and sustainability to effectively contribute to the team."

No. Stalkers work well too.

"telling new players to run LRM's on any mech they please is absolutely stupid to say the least, and will encourage bad habits."

But its not stupid. LRM effectiveness scales for newbies, its not an all-or-nothing toggle like so many of you pretend. Think of it as ELO levels, kinda like this:

LEVEL Damage done
newbie 100%
2 95%
3 90%
..... ....
18 15%
19 10%
20 5%

See the progression? Its when you get to mid-level and your LRMs are only at around 50% effectiveness that they stop being so much fun. What these means for new players is that they have several months of fun. I've been playing for 4 months now, about 40 hours a week, and am just now hitting the ELO brackets where more experienced players are bringing LRM effectiveness down significantly enough to make me consider shelving LRMs.

That's 480 hours of fun fun fun. And I'm usually pulling 700+ damage and 3-4 kills. Not to mention the suppression value or the number of times I have stopped a push in its tracks. If I am a "normal" new player, that's a lot of hours of effective damage kills and fun. And during that time, they have taught me many good habits and zero bad habits.

So its not really stupid to encourage new players to run LRMs.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 17 April 2015 - 10:59 PM.

[Bows3r]

Fenrisulvyn, on 17 April 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

"If you HAVE to run LRM's, only use either the Awesome 8R, the Trebuchet 7M, or the Hunchback 4J. They're the only LRM boats with enough DPS and sustainability to effectively contribute to the team."

No. Stalkers work well too.

"telling new players to run LRM's on any mech they please is absolutely stupid to say the least, and will encourage bad habits."

But its not stupid. LRM effectiveness scales for newbies, its not an all-or-nothing toggle like so many of you pretend. Think of it as ELO levels, kinda like this:

LEVEL Damage done
newbie 100%
2 95%
3 90%
..... ....
18 15%
19 10%
20 5%

See the progression? Its when you get to mid-level and your LRMs are only at around 50% effectiveness that they stop being so much fun. What these means for new players is that they have several months of fun. I've been playing for 4 months now, about 40 hours a week, and am just now hitting the ELO brackets where more experienced players are bringing LRM effectiveness down significantly enough to make me consider shelving LRMs.

That's 480 hours of fun fun fun. And I'm usually pulling 700+ damage and 3-4 kills. Not to mention the suppression value or the number of times I have stopped a push in its tracks. If I am a "normal" new player, that's a lot of hours of effective damage kills and fun. And during that time, they have taught me many good habits and zero bad habits.

So its not really stupid to encourage new players to run LRMs.

You talk for fun, I talk actual effectiveness and team contribution. I suppose it's up to the new player which one they'd rather have.

Only one Stalker *MAYBE* can actually do it effectively, and that's the 3H, the rest are vastly superior for being used in other more effective roles for a 'mech with the sheer ability of the Stalker.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"You talk for fun, I talk actual effectiveness and team contribution."

Nope. I talked for all three. 700+ damage and 3-4 kills per match. For ~480 hours.

[Bows3r]

Fenrisulvyn, on 18 April 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

"You talk for fun, I talk actual effectiveness and team contribution."

Nope. I talked for all three. 700+ damage and 3-4 kills per match. For ~480 hours.

*Sigh* You don't get it, but it's alright, I've derailed this topic enough. If you have any further questions feel free to PM me.

[Kin3ticX]

Tesunie, on 17 April 2015 - 09:15 PM, said:

I have no problems with "that type of player" not using LRMs. When I say this, realize it's probably not at you directly. My problem is with those people decrying that LRMs are horrible so no one should use them. I find LRMs fun, and very useful in my matches. (Just so you know, I don't boat them, which seems to be a point of confusion from people.) I'd suggest people use LRMs, at least to some extent at some point. Doesn't hurt to figure out how the system works, right?

With that said, yes, LRMs are less effective against more experienced players. I agree. That doesn't mean new players shouldn't use them however. Like with the stated example with Street Fighter, you wouldn't tell Street Fighter players to never use Ryu or if you do not to use his haduken because of "bad habits". (Though even experienced players in Street Fighter use the Haduken.) LRMs will only produce "bad habits" if you use them "safely" and not "effectively". Even then, if you don't boat them, they can make very handy support systems.

As an experienced player, I personally use LRMs. I also use PPCs, Lasers, ACs, etc. I carry a variety of playstyles, and I enjoy using different ones at different times. I agree with you that I enjoy seeing myself improve. I don't see LRMs hindering that improvement though. So, I see no problem with other people using LRMs in return. (I learned this game with a trial Stock Hunchback 4J. I think I've progressed well in my skills from then.)

I just don't like all the LRM hate I see. It's rather unfounded to tell all new players to hate LRMs as well and not use them. They have uses, and can be used effectively. You seem reasonable and don't seem to be in the "LRM hate" crowd. I agree with much of what you say, but I disagree with LRMs being bad to learn with and producing bad habits. That, would depend upon how they are used and what the player loads their mech out with. An LRM boat probably would produce possible bad habits (because I find boats are more likely to do the "hide and wait for locks" trick that, though possible, is not the best way to use LRMs). Just having some LRMs, or even heavy LRMs, I don't believe will hinder a newer player. (There is a reason I always suggest LRM users not to boat. I don't think it's worth the risk.)

Not to be mean, but I do think we've also gone off topic again. Myself included here.

There is no LRM hate coming from me, it is just my opinion from experience. It is good to have an open dialog on the subject. We are just sharing ideas rather than militantly trying to persuade each other to convert over a party line.

You are reading into the Streetfighter analogy too closely but thats okay. Thats the problem with analogies, they are flawed but often can be used make an argument more interesting I guess. The main message of the fireball analogy is that they are both fundamentally low skill floor "hold me overs". Low skill floor is not meant to be an insult, but LRMs operationally only require a player to loosely hold their pipper over a painted target. Lets temporarily ignore things like map knowledge and positioning for simplicity, I recognize a veteran player which likes LRMs has this. Anyways, Hadoken and LRMs both serve well at giving new players something they can dish out right away and have a good degree of power. Beyond that the two games obviously part ways.

Battletech purists really don't like that opinion because that whole weapon system and all its spinoffs are such a huge part of the genre. At the most extreme end of the spectrum, they want stock and stock+ mechs to be effective. This is impossible though because it is generally agreed that stockish high mix builds end up trying to do everything but do nothing particularly well (Swiss army knife effect in action). Often, high mix builds have large chunks of their payload completely canceled out because they either get perma jammed, range tanked, or face hugged and just ruined. Rarely does a mix build get to gradually approach their target and use their "well rounded" arsenal to be effective at all ranges. Often, I read up on a Battlemech on Sarna, somewhere it will say something to the tune of "and the Small Laser rounds out the 'mechs arsenal". Those make me chuckle a little .


Maybe it would help if I also gave you the general perspective of LRMs in the metagame crowd. Many of them have completely abandoned LRMs for other more powerful options. Well, they might have one LRM mech mothballed somewhere but probably don't use it a whole lot. After all, it is only natural for someone with surgical reflexes to feel more powerful with clutch aim weapons.

The big one though is LRM counterplay. LRM counterplay just sucks and is boring as hell to the receiving end. Facing a team that went to town on LRMs and the works just means staying near cover and shooting inbetween volleys, sometimes dragging on matches for a really long time. So yeah, all the effort to mitigate LRMs combined with squeezing in direct fire trades is what does that to them. This is the main source of LRM hate(for lack of a better word lol) from that party line. That and the futility argument already discussed on a previous page.

This has shifted as of recent because of the arrival of the HBR. This also ties in with NARC. There is so much ECM out there now that NARC often can't get through the overlap.

Oops, i made that long....

Edited by Kin3ticX, 18 April 2015 - 05:30 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Maybe it would help if I also gave you the general perspective of LRMs in the metagame crowd"

What do you think is the percentage of the metagame crowd here at MWO? Not the wanna-be's, but actual comp players?

[Kin3ticX]

Fenrisulvyn, on 18 April 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

"Maybe it would help if I also gave you the general perspective of LRMs in the metagame crowd"

What do you think is the percentage of the metagame crowd here at MWO? Not the wanna-be's, but actual comp players?

Well, when I use the term metagamer, that is a pretty broad brush. This includes everything from pubstar tryhards to top competitive players on leagues. In terms of actual comp players, I don't know how I would include or exclude people but....

https://docs.google....BXtE/edit#gid=0

There are around 500 people on that list going for prize money in the MWOLN tournament. They will probably be driving full meta for this.

[YCSLiesmith]

Fenrisulvyn, on 17 April 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

"If you HAVE to run LRM's, only use either the Awesome 8R, the Trebuchet 7M, or the Hunchback 4J. They're the only LRM boats with enough DPS and sustainability to effectively contribute to the team."

No. Stalkers work well too.

"telling new players to run LRM's on any mech they please is absolutely stupid to say the least, and will encourage bad habits."

But its not stupid. LRM effectiveness scales for newbies, its not an all-or-nothing toggle like so many of you pretend. Think of it as ELO levels, kinda like this:

LEVEL Damage done
newbie 100%
2 95%
3 90%
..... ....
18 15%
19 10%
20 5%

See the progression? Its when you get to mid-level and your LRMs are only at around 50% effectiveness that they stop being so much fun. What these means for new players is that they have several months of fun. I've been playing for 4 months now, about 40 hours a week, and am just now hitting the ELO brackets where more experienced players are bringing LRM effectiveness down significantly enough to make me consider shelving LRMs.

That's 480 hours of fun fun fun. And I'm usually pulling 700+ damage and 3-4 kills. Not to mention the suppression value or the number of times I have stopped a push in its tracks. If I am a "normal" new player, that's a lot of hours of effective damage kills and fun. And during that time, they have taught me many good habits and zero bad habits.

So its not really stupid to encourage new players to run LRMs.

any assault mech with LRMs is a complete waste, especially stalkers which are one of the best IS damage dealers. and yes, anything that scales down as sharply once you stop being new is something to be avoided.

if you really want to play with LRMs for whatever reason that's one thing, but arguing that they are good weapons and newbies should use them is unreasonable imo.

Fenrisulvyn, on 18 April 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

"Maybe it would help if I also gave you the general perspective of LRMs in the metagame crowd"

What do you think is the percentage of the metagame crowd here at MWO? Not the wanna-be's, but actual comp players?

what do you mean by comp players? do you mean the guys at the very top, who are mostly not relevant? or do you mean the vast majority of players who 'compete' with the other team hoping to, you know, win at the game as designed?

I think noncompetitive players who are out there seeing how many mechs they can stack on top of one another or w/e are an extreme minority.

[Tesunie]

Kin3ticX, on 18 April 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

Battletech purists really don't like that opinion because that whole weapon system and all its spinoffs are such a huge part of the genre. At the most extreme end of the spectrum, they want stock and stock+ mechs to be effective. This is impossible though because it is generally agreed that stockish high mix builds end up trying to do everything but do nothing particularly well (Swiss army knife effect in action). Often, high mix builds have large chunks of their payload completely canceled out because they either get perma jammed, range tanked, or face hugged and just ruined. Rarely does a mix build get to gradually approach their target and use their "well rounded" arsenal to be effective at all ranges. Often, I read up on a Battlemech on Sarna, somewhere it will say something to the tune of "and the Small Laser rounds out the 'mechs arsenal". Those make me chuckle a little .

...
Okay, I admit it! I play with stock mechs... (I actually do well with them in Public matches. But that's a different tale.)

However, I tend to play stock mechs against stock mechs in private matches (Stock Mech Monday Event). You'd be surprised how effective some of those builds can be even in Public matches (not saying it's going to be everyone's thing, of course).

I would like to add, you may laugh when Sarna says a Sm laser rounds out the build. Let me say as a Stock mech player, we have very often had small laser matches between Hunchbacks at the end of matches before. That... is fun when it happens. (We've also had "kick and stomp them to death" ending matches. No weapons/ammo left for anyone, and 2 mechs still alive on each side! A Small laser would have determined the match.)


As a side note, some mixed builds can work in MW:O. I have several mechs that have weapons for different range bands that works well. Typically because the closer you get, the deadlier I get. Some examples:
Stalker 3F: Run inside the LRM range, and you get a good punch of SSRMs and lasers. It's worked well for me, and has some of my best stats on it.
Battlemaster 1G: LRM rack is for indirect "as I approach". From there, UAC5 and LL for range and cooling off. For up close, 6 med lasers start to kick into action. I find this mech fun to play with.
Dragon 1N: Has ERLL and AC5 for long range punch. Complimented by two SSRM2 systems. Designed to be a light hunter.

I'm not saying that balanced builds are the only way to go, just that they can be useful within the game. The trick when fighting a balanced build vs a focused build is to try and force the focused build out of it's strengths. Each side (focused and balanced) have their advantages and disadvantages. It's a matter of what plays to your strengths, and what do you enjoy playing. (Though, I agree that some stock mech's balanced builds are just bewildering sometimes.)

[MechWarrior3671771]

"any assault mech with LRMs is a complete waste, especially stalkers which are one of the best IS damage dealers"

Mine has been useful for 4 months, at about 480 hours of play time. Again, routinely 700+ damage and 3-4 kills per match. And running it has gotten me used to the way Stalkers handle, which has translated to some piloting skill now that I am running laser builds instead.

Along the way, its taught me how to evade LRMs, why I need to stay with group, how to jump a missile boat, why to push against an LRM heavy team, how to scout better, why Adv Sensor Range is a wasted module slot, why BAP is *not* a waste of space, when to bother with Command Console, why I should reconsider any weapon that spreads damage, why I shouldn't waste missile/ballistic ammo on long-range low-probability hits, and has increased my map knowledge and situational awareness. So, hardly "useless" for the new player.

And did I mention how much fun I had learning all that?


"do you mean the vast majority of players who 'compete' with the other team hoping to, you know, win at the game as designed?"

I mean the % of players willing to drop with a meta build they hate vs those that prefer to play sub-optimal mechs they enjoy.

And I think you are placing too much value on winning. I've been there, was on an elite team in MW4 that went something close to 110-7 on a ladder league. No one remembers who we were or what we did, no one cares now, but everyone remembers how much fun they had, win or lose.

Take the ultimate meta here, Community Warfare. Does anyone know what planets units like 228 and EMP have taken? Does anyone really care? Will they still care in 6 months? Or after the next reset? Nope. What they will remember is how much they enjoyed playing the game.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 18 April 2015 - 09:05 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

228 doesnt have many (any?) planets because they dont do CW.

[YCSLiesmith]

anyway GM Patience specifically asked me to not blow your minds with too much LRM wisdom because he thinks you can't handle it. I said "no! you should have more respect for MWO players! They're not dumb like you think" but he's adamant so I'll bow to his wishes and not go into detail about the differences between pinpoint and spread damage, earned kills vs. killstealing, etc

[Insects]

Raven with ECM, NARC, BAP, TAG, Adv Sensors, Target Info Gathering, UAV.

Its a support boat, seriously its fun in its own way with a group who can work with it.
Unrewarding in score/rewards though. Just be prepared to be last on the scoreboard.

Neutralizing enemy ECM, highlighting targets for focus fire, providing ECM umbrella for your own team. Its a powerful contribution to the team no matter what the scoreboard thinks.

[MechWarrior3671771]

YCSLiesmith: "anyway GM Patience specifically asked me to not blow your minds with too much LRM wisdom"

Heh. Its all good. You are mostly right, and your views on LRMs *have* gotten me to recognize their flaws sooner instead of wasting a few weeks in frustration trying to figure it out for myself. And you were much cooler about it than that last time.

So, clear fields of fire to you. And I'll be flanking you soon, definitely gonna leg and leave you

[Romeo Deluxe]

Modo44, on 12 April 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

Yes. If your team can not spot and/or enemies have too much ECM and/or enemies are good enough to swarm a boat and/or the map provides easy cover, your LRM boat is done, gone right there. No matter your piloting skill or build.

This guy says this all the time. If you want to do some other reading: Lrm Boat - Help.
Narc isn't very useful and I believe the bonuses from it were nerfed a long time ago. I think they should give bonuses to some mechs for using them. As mentioned role warfare is practically non-existent at this time. On the other hand you can try using them just to see how they operate. There is not a whole lot to this game than the matches so you have to find your own entertainment. Who knows, PGI may someday make our Narc skills useful. It could happen!

[Romeo Deluxe]

Krivvan, on 17 April 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

I'd post a lengthy rebuttal for the hundredth time, but just try bringing a LRM deck to a player-run league and find out why no one brings LRM decks.

I will go so far as to say that 99% of MWO players will never go near a player-run league. This is a game. It's sole purpose is to have fun.

[YCSLiesmith]

Romeo Deluxe, on 21 April 2015 - 01:51 AM, said:

I will go so far as to say that 99% of MWO players will never go near a player-run league. This is a game. It's sole purpose is to have fun.

do you have fun losing? you don't have to be in a player-run league to learn from them. they are the extreme end at which the best mech builds and strategies are revealed. by aping them in simple ways like mech design and general playstyle you can get considerably better. being good at something is fun.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"do you have fun losing?"

Yes. Some of my fav matches have been losses.

And its more fun to lose a close one 11-12 than roll them 12-0. Winning isn't always fun.

"We don't want to work the game, we want to play it"