27 replies to this topic

[Juodas Varnas]

So, i'm kind of pissed off right now.

Yes. This is another post about the Quickdraw (you're all probably sick of seeing them as much as i'm sick of making them), i could use it to rant about it being oversized, needing a geometry and animation (it looks like it has shat its pants) pass, but i will not, because i'll be focusing on an issue that is, in my opinion, MUCH more important and affects the gameplay much more directly.
And because PGI will never re-do the model/animations, however they have shown that they SOMETIMES change the movement archetypes for some mechs, like they have done with the Gargoyle.
_____________________
For quite some time, i thought that the Quickdraw's lack of agility, inability to climb even the smallest hills and stumbling over the smallest pebbles was just in my head. I mean, it's just a 60 ton mech, it's not going to have the agility of an assault!
Well. I was wrong.
According to this: http://mwomercs.com/...ement-behavior/
PGI, for some unfathomable reason, decided to give the Quickdraw the LARGE archetype.
The same archetype that is used by mechs like the 85 ton Stalker, which is supposed to be a slow, clumsy behemoth as opposed to the Quickdraw - a fast, maneuverable, agile skirmisher.

This not only goes against basic logic, but also goes against the lore.
Let me quote the technical readout 3037 for the Quickdraw:

Quote

In addition to being somewhat quick for a BattleMech of this size, the Quickdraw’s real advantage in rough terrain is its highly articulated ankle actuator assembly. This assembly—readily identified by its distinctive circular rotor housing—allows the ’Mech to keep its footing on surfaces ranging from gravel to mud to ice and on grades up to twelve degrees steeper than any other machine in its weight class

It CLEARLY states that Quickdraw is much more agile and is capable of traversing slopes up to 12^o steeper than other mechs of its size!
Also keep in mind that another mech of its size - the DRAGON has the MEDIUM movement archetype, making it much more capable of traversing rough terrain than the mech that's supposed to be doing that.

So what I am proposing is changing Quickdraw's movement archetype from LARGE to MEDIUM or even SMALL (like the Cicada), because from what i know, no other mech has so much emphasis on it's agility and capability of going over rough terrain as the Quickdraw has, which i think would give it a nice boost and make it the agile mech it's supposed to be.

So the vote poll is simple.
Just say you either agree (Yay) or...
maybe you disagree with making a supposedly agile mech actually agile like it's supposed to be (Nay).
If you disagree, i'd appreciate if you explained why do you think Quickdraw doesn't deserve any love.

Update: Recent hilarious tweet from Russ about Mad Cat's "Lore mobility", i'm genuinely angry right now.
I guess lore only matters when it comes to fan-favorite mechs...

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 21 May 2015 - 10:24 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Mentioning the Stalker is rather wrong, look at other Heavies.
Both the Catapult and Orion have the Large type, do they need fixes?
The Grasshopper has the Huge type fer Mech's sake! It is supposed to have mobility yet has the WORST archtype of all Heavies.
All other IS Heavies have Medium type while all Clan Heavies have Large type.
Begs the question of the whole system rather than just one. We need complete fixes to the system, not band patches. (Really, a i d s is a banned word?)

Edited by Wildstreak, 19 May 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Alienized]

Wildstreak, on 19 May 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Mentioning the Stalker is rather wrong, look at other Heavies.
Both the Catapult and Orion have the Large type, do they need fixes?
The Grasshopper has the Huge type fer Mech's sake! It is supposed to have mobility yet has the WORST archtype of all Heavies.
All other IS Heavies have Medium type while all Clan Heavies have Large type.
Begs the question of the whole system rather than just one. We need complete fixes to the system, not band ****.

grasshopper has large.
catapults and orions were never really famous for their awesome movement speed.
cat was a supporter, orion a slow tanky brawler.

the quickdraw was built around mobility. thats the reason why it should have medium. did you even read the sarna quote about its special designs? propably not.
i will make it bigger for you:


In addition to being somewhat quick for a BattleMech of this size, the Quickdraw’s real advantage in rough terrain is its highly articulated ankle actuator assembly. This assembly—readily identified by its distinctive circular rotor housing—allows the ’Mech to keep its footing on surfaces ranging from gravel to mud to ice and on grades up to twelve degrees steeper than any other machine in its weight class

Edited by Alienized, 19 May 2015 - 09:44 AM.

[Nightmare1]

The Quickdraw is one of the underappreciated and fairly ignored Mechs in MWO. It really needs some love from the Devs. Even the quirks it's received are a bit of a joke. I love my QKDs and hate the fact that they lack agility. Like the OP states, the entire purpose of the Quickdraw is to be a fast attack striker with lots of agility. It sacrifices a lot of armor and firepower to attain that; why should it be forced to go without its keystone feature?

[13th Shaman]

I agree, but as Wildstreak said, the Quickdraw is not the only one that was put in a wrong place. For example, the Victor and much loved Grasshopper are also all about the agility and movement.

Grasshopper, was a crazy jumping, agile and tanky, close range brawler/skirmisher. It looks like it should, it takes pretty much dmg even though it's made around the Xl engine, but there in no agility and jumping capability it should have.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grasshopper
Victor is not the slow guy either. he should be considered extremely agile for its weight class and also jump like crazy.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Victor

I hope the PGI will take that into consideration sooner than later.

[Wildstreak]

Alienized, on 19 May 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

grasshopper has large.
catapults and orions were never really famous for their awesome movement speed.
cat was a supporter, orion a slow tanky brawler.

the quickdraw was built around mobility. thats the reason why it should have medium. did you even read the sarna quote about its special designs? propably not.
i will make it bigger for you:
(sarcasm clipped)

If the Grasshopper has Large, why does Smurfy's that gets its data from the game still have Huge? Since you like Sarna quotes, here are some from the Grasshopper entry with underling of relavent parts.

Quote

With great mobility and a predominately shorter-ranged, energy-based weaponry, the Grasshopper proved itself during the First Succession War.

Revolutionary for its time, the appearance of a heavy 'Mech with the mobility of a lighter design caused a change in tactics; the Grasshopper became known for using surprise and speed to appear suddenly in the midst of a tightly-packed lance, a devastating situation should the enemy lack short-ranged weapons themselves.

Though it could be outgunned by other 'Mechs of similar tonnage, the combination of its mobility and thirteen tons of standard armor allowed the Grasshopper to at least inflict significant damage before being forced to withdraw.

Besides hunting down lighter machines to clear the way for heavier, less-mobile 'Mechs, the Grasshopper's mobility and endurance meant it often spearheaded assaults to storm fortifications, lead flanking attacks to hit the enemy from the rear, and served as back-up brawler for companies of light and medium 'Mechs.

Did you know I own the original 3025 TROs where I can have read the original intent? Probably not. That's the Internet for you, anyone can make a public *** out of themselves by making assumptions of others like you just did.

Point still stands, they should look into the whole system, not do patches here and there.

[Juodas Varnas]

Wildstreak, on 19 May 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

If the Grasshopper has Large, why does Smurfy's that gets its data from the game still have Huge? Since you like Sarna quotes, here are some from the Grasshopper entry with underling of relavent parts.

That's because it still TECHNICALLY is 'HUGE', but PGI simply buffed its individual climbing angles to that of the LARGE archetype (In the same patch they changed Gargamel's and Victor's archetypes to LARGE too)

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 19 May 2015 - 08:06 PM.

[Alienized]

Wildstreak, on 19 May 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

If the Grasshopper has Large, why does Smurfy's that gets its data from the game still have Huge? Since you like Sarna quotes, here are some from the Grasshopper entry with underling of relavent parts.


Did you know I own the original 3025 TROs where I can have read the original intent? Probably not. That's the Internet for you, anyone can make a public *** out of themselves by making assumptions of others like you just did.

Point still stands, they should look into the whole system, not do patches here and there.

so you say with better agility it should climb better...not. two complete different things.
thats what the archetype is about. CLIMBING BY FOOT.
agility itself is coupled with engine rating and NOT WITH ARCHETYPE.
compared to the phract and orion the grashopper is indeed mobile.
and you know why? look at the JumpJets. then you know why its more mobile.
again, nothing to do with hillclimbing itself.

[Juodas Varnas]

The13, on 19 May 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

I agree, but as Wildstreak said, the Quickdraw is not the only one that was put in a wrong place. For example, the Victor and much loved Grasshopper are also all about the agility and movement.

Grasshopper, was a crazy jumping, agile and tanky, close range brawler/skirmisher. It looks like it should, it takes pretty much dmg even though it's made around the Xl engine, but there in no agility and jumping capability it should have.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grasshopper
Victor is not the slow guy either. he should be considered extremely agile for its weight class and also jump like crazy.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Victor

I hope the PGI will take that into consideration sooner than later.

Both Grasshopper and Victor were changed from HUGE to LARGE in a patch along with Gargoyle.
You think they should be using the MEDIUM archetype? I, for one, think they're fine in LARGE.
Unlike the Quickdraw.
Keep in mind that the Jagermech and Thunderbolt, which are both 65 tons (Quickdraw for reference is 60 tons) are in the MEDIUM archetype.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 20 May 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

It's not just hillclimbing, I think.... Acceleration also seems to be affected. When they nerfed the King Crab from Large to Huge (alright, fair enough, never should have been large to befin with, but it was fun while it lasted) it seems to be a bit more sluggish getting going, and grinding to a halt.

The OP convinced me. Give the Quickdraw the ability to be.... Quick

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 20 May 2015 - 05:25 AM.

[Wildstreak]

I removed my No vote but cannot vote Yes as I believe there is more than one Mech suffering this.

Alienized, on 19 May 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

so you say with better agility it should climb better...not. two complete different things.
thats what the archetype is about. CLIMBING BY FOOT.
agility itself is coupled with engine rating and NOT WITH ARCHETYPE.
compared to the phract and orion the grashopper is indeed mobile.
and you know why? look at the JumpJets. then you know why its more mobile.
again, nothing to do with hillclimbing itself.

I know what is said about archetype but as Twilight said, I think something more is going on there with archetypes.

I will not presume on you as you did before. I own Thunderbolts, Grasshoppers and so far 1 Jager. Speed is better despite not feeling right due to the extremely tall frame. But my 65 tonners twist and turn better than the Hopper does and the Hoppers have bigger engines, 325-350 now, while the Bolts have 300s and the Jager is less. Based on engine alone, the Hopper should twist better but it is not.

Jump Jets, there are topics regarding how poor they are now. I tried 6JJ on the 5J, not worht it, shows no difference than using 4 or even 3 as one Hopper I have now does. Same on the Panther, 4 is fine for all even the 10K, I tried 8 but not different than 4. Here is one example topic if you did not see it, I do not remember if you posted there and do not have time to go through all 13 pages.

Anything further on the Hopper I will say in another topic when I start it since I am trying to finish Mastering them again after taking a break, I am almost done unlocking the last Elite. It says something though that I have to run my 4th Kit Fox just to feel better after some Hopper gameplay.

I did once think about getting the Quickdraw for its JJ & Hero but it seems to suffer similar problems the Hopper has though the Quickdraw may have better quirks.

[Alienized]

Wildstreak, on 20 May 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

I removed my No vote but cannot vote Yes as I believe there is more than one Mech suffering this.


I know what is said about archetype but as Twilight said, I think something more is going on there with archetypes.

I will not presume on you as you did before. I own Thunderbolts, Grasshoppers and so far 1 Jager. Speed is better despite not feeling right due to the extremely tall frame. But my 65 tonners twist and turn better than the Hopper does and the Hoppers have bigger engines, 325-350 now, while the Bolts have 300s and the Jager is less. Based on engine alone, the Hopper should twist better but it is not.

Jump Jets, there are topics regarding how poor they are now. I tried 6JJ on the 5J, not worht it, shows no difference than using 4 or even 3 as one Hopper I have now does. Same on the Panther, 4 is fine for all even the 10K, I tried 8 but not different than 4. Here is one example topic if you did not see it, I do not remember if you posted there and do not have time to go through all 13 pages.

Anything further on the Hopper I will say in another topic when I start it since I am trying to finish Mastering them again after taking a break, I am almost done unlocking the last Elite. It says something though that I have to run my 4th Kit Fox just to feel better after some Hopper gameplay.

I did once think about getting the Quickdraw for its JJ & Hero but it seems to suffer similar problems the Hopper has though the Quickdraw may have better quirks.

as far as i noticed the only thing that changes when having more JJ mounted was airtime, it didnt go up faster or turning faster, just farther and higher. also longer time usable/recharge rate.

comparing the hopper and thunderbolts: yes you use a higher rating on the hopper but its also 5 tons more. i have no information about the calculations but my guess is that it equals out with the thunderbolts 300 engine.
i just grinded them myself and grinding mechs is always a pain. no matter which one.
i do miss some agility quirks on the hopper but not a different archetype.

now the Quickdraw-5K.... is propably my favourite mech. large arms for torso twist shielding makes it quite tanky but its not a staredown mech as it has big frontal/rear hitboxes.
XL friendly too altho it doesnt seem like it.
there are many good loadouts on all the variants (just the hero is a bit meh) so its like build what you like, it will work.
PPC maybe not as much as on the hopper but it still works.

imho, QKD -> GHR by a good mile.

[Wildstreak]

https://twitter.com/...159659077160960

"I also do not want to take away Lore mobility...."

Too late.

[Juodas Varnas]

Wildstreak, on 21 May 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

https://twitter.com/...159659077160960

"I also do not want to take away Lore mobility...."

Too late.

[Spleenslitta]

Russ....Be a man and keep your word. Make the Quickdraw capable of doing what it was meant to do.
Just because there are more popular mechs out there doesn't mean the Quickdraw should be burdened with something it doesn't deserve.

If you're worried it will make the mech brokenly powerfull. Don't worry. It's like OP said about the Dragon.
Dragon has medium movement archetype and it's not overpowered because of it. If there is anything overpowered about it is the AC5 quirks and nothing else.

Quickdraw doesn't have any overpowered quirks like that. It's safe to allow it better movement.
And for crying out loud....make both the Quickdraw and the Dragon look less like they shat themselves.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

I'm all for giving the Quickdraw the Medium movement archetype.

....frankly, that should be all that needs adding here.

[Spleenslitta]

But you know what is so futile about all of this?
Unless at least 500 of us vote the Quickdraw and any other mech for that matter won't receive any attention to this degree.
PGI has said they keep an eye on poll threads but polls with few votes probably don't mean anything to them.

[cSand]

Yes yes please


I FOR ONE WILL WELCOME OUR NEW QKD OVERLORDS (because I will be one of them )

[Spleenslitta]

I just had an idea. Tomorrow i'll make a thread that will force PGI to notice mechs that have been....mauled the way Quickdraw has been.
It will concern many mechs including the majority of all the medium weightclass mechs from both the Clans and IS.

[Alienized]

just tweet this thread to russ.

we got some good arguments in here.