384 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Just for debate.

I hear all the time, that because of Lock On, LRMs are a no skill weapon.

I submit, because of hitscan, and accuracy percentage being shown as a "hit" even if the laser only brushed the target for a tick, is just as no skill, or more.

The sheer amount of people out there swinging their no skill Large Lasers around the map like Lightsabers is pathetic. Yes, they hit. A little bit, and usually spread all over the enemy mech. A blind, deaf chimpanzee could hit with lasers in MWO. What skill does that take?

Ah, but wait!

"To focus damage on one component takes mad skill" says the Tryhard.

And I agree. For those few who are able to do that, at anything but point blank range.

And I submit, to paint all LRM Users as new skill newbs, is just as inaccurate and disingenuous.

There is no single weapon with as many counters, and weaknesses, as LRMs.

Counters:
-Cover.
-AMS.
-Radar Derp Module.
-ECM.

Weaknesses:
-180 meter Minimum Range. Shorter maximum range than almost any other "long range" weapon.
-Inefficient damage spread, like an LB-X.
-Requires TAG, BAP and Artemis (and preferably a teammate with NARC and UAVs)to achieve maximum potential, removing crits, and hardpoints and tonnage, when already needing huge amount of ammo to justify in the first place.
-160 m/s projectile speed. Not only do acquiring locks, even with TAG take quite a while, exposed to PP-FLD return fire, but maintaining the lock is required, and at max range it requires that lock to be held fo 6.8 seconds, or the shot is wasted. Nearly 7 seconds for the enemy unit to brush off the lock. Even at shorter range, it take near 3 seconds AFTER acquiring a lock, to bring ordinance on target.

Fact is, for LRMs to be optimal, requires the LRM Mech to be 300.500 meters away, requiring over 2-3 seconds of exposure from time of seeing the target, to acquiring lock (IF the enemy isn't shielded by ecm) and Missiles arriving on target. And that only works if the enemy can't break LoS (particularly with Target Derp) or grab cover.

I submit, for arguments sake, that in all but Comp Tiers (LRMs are simply too slow and clumsy to be useful against mass lazer/gauss zerg rushes) to EFFICIENTLY and EFFECTIVELY use LRMs requires as much, if not more skill, as our Lazor Overlords.

Simple truth is, 90% of LaserSpammers are just as bad as 90% of LRMboats.


Argue away.

[Bilbo]

I would tend to agree.

[Flutterguy]

LRMs have both the lowest skill floor to use and the highest skill cap to master. The problem is that the payout for the effort involved in using LRMs well is not worth the investment.

[Xetelian]

Back during the PPFLD meta with ACs and PPCs and even back in the jump sniper era I said lasers are what they're pushing us towards.

Now we have a laservomit meta. Which I don't mind because I can at least spread that damage.

LRMs aren't meta, never will they be meta and they aren't good enough to worry about.

[Scout Derek]

I don't argue, but when I do, I prefer the taste of dosmechies(George Ledoux reference ><)

No, I agree, Lrms are really weak. When was training my Mad Dog I ran the 6 lrms. But over two thirds of the time I just couldn't get a lock unless there was a uav up. I eventually just switched to 2 lrm 15, 2 Large pulse and 2 medium. Direct weapons are always needed when you run lrms, because they aren't always a primary weapon to use. ECM just loves to negate :/

[FupDup]

Lasers do have a relatively low skill floor, but they do at least require some degree of aiming. Lock-ons just require a large red box, and you can point anywhere in that box without having a different effect. Pointing at the head has the same effect as the arm, leg, or torso. There is no difference between how well you can aim when using lock-on systems.

The difference between the two is that lasers are way more reliable and effective in all situations, while Lurms require very special circumstances and have lots of counters. Lasers also have lower opportunity costs (namely tonnage).

[Cyborne Elemental]

LRM's are a "I'm going to sit back like a big puss while you do all the work" weapon.

Laser vomit, while you may dislike it, is much more honorable IMO because you are risking exposure to get your shots off with LOS smack in the face of the enemy.

[Ragtag soldier]

no, see LRMS are noob weapon because they can hit you without seeing you, where as lasers are perfect skill-based instant damage weps. is gud deal.

people don't play online games to get ambushed, they play online games to do ambushes. LRMs mean they can get ambushed for running into enemies and shooting them from out of nowhere, which is clearly overpowered and so LRMs are the problem.

[Mcgral18]

Is there really a weapon system that requires skill in MWO?

It's point the crosshair on the robot, shoot weapon in almost every case.


I'd say PPCs are among the most skill intensive, because of both heat management and needing to lead by a fair margin. They're still pretty easy to use.

[1453 R]

I've been saying this for a great long while now. Effective LRM use is hard, and takes a level of talent and knowledge for the game one has never required to just barf up direct-fire attacks at anything they stumble across. Not that anyone pays attention, because the only thing most idiots around here think of when they hear 'LRM player' is someone in an 80-tube Stalker with a 225-rated engine sitting behind a hill at spawn trying to adjust the fit of his pants upon his brow.

Nobody thinks of the 90kph medium Lurmisher delivering (semi-)punishing fire support at 300 meters, oh no. It's always the damn STK-3F[C] people think of. God how I despise that 'Mech...

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 29 May 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

Lasers do have a relatively low skill floor, but they do at least require some degree of aiming. Lock-ons just require a large red box, and you can point anywhere in that box without having a different effect. Pointing at the head has the same effect as the arm, leg, or torso. There is no difference between how well you can aim when using lock-on systems.

LRMs require you to be able to hold that near range red box, for a heck of a lot longer than lasers, where let's be honest, for most players it more spray and pray than "aiming". If LRMs were so easy to aim, they wouldn't register the lowest average accuracy rate of any weapon in the game.

Mister D, on 29 May 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

LRM's are a "I'm going to sit back like a big puss while you do all the work" weapon.

Laser vomit, while you may dislike it, is much more honorable IMO because you are risking exposure to get your shots off with LOS smack in the face of the enemy.

lol. Honorable. Great skill argument. Nice Stereotype, when most good LRM users are just as in your face, and have to stay in your face, for far longer than laservomit spray and prayers, playing the hokey pokey.

GGclose, though.

[CocoaJin]

But at least you can learn to become skilled and high effective with direct fire, vomit or not. With my lasers or ACs, I can skillfully and quickly dis-arm a target, blow out his exposed structure, aim for a possible headshot(got two the other day in like 5 games with my HBK-4G's AC20), leg a light, destroy an Atlas' AC20 and SRMs.

I can adjust my gunnery strategy to the situation...but the LRM guy just sprays and prays LRMs that have no skill based component in terms of dispatching the enemy. It's just sprinkle damage on the guy until it eventually dies. They take all control out of engaging the target, short of positioning(which is a skill) and putting the pip on the dorito bracket for the lock. It's almost as bad as the American attempt to use bats as time bombs in Japan.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

LRMs require you to be able to hold that near range red box, for a heck of a lot longer than lasers, where let's be honest, for most players it more spray and pray than &quot;aiming&quot;. If LRMs were so easy to aim, they wouldn't register the lowest average accuracy rate of any weapon in the game.

Uhhh....I don't know about you but I try to put as much damage I can on a specific component.

LRMs, yeah you have to stare at your target more. How convenient for those who don't know how to torso twist. I guess the best place to be is behind cover, with weapons that shoot over cover, so you don't have to worry about spreading damage.

And seriously, ANYBODY can hold a tag laser on target. You don't have aim at components, you just have to have it on some part of them.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Uhhh....I don't know about you but I try to put as much damage I can on a specific component.

LRMs, yeah you have to stare at your target more. How convenient for those who don't know how to torso twist. I guess the best place to be is behind cover, with weapons that shoot over cover, so you don't have to worry about spreading damage.

And seriously, ANYBODY can hold a tag laser on target. You don't have aim at components, you just have to have it on some part of them.

seems the missed the gist of the OP. I noted that players who actually CAN put the majority of laser damage on target, are the minority and skilled. As are people who can actually effectively use LRMs, which for those who can see past their own bias, would not include those hiding behind hills in LRMAssaults, letting other people target for them.

[Vandul]

There's a huge difference between "LOLURMBOATZ" and Fire Support mechs. It took me a while to learn that. Playing LRM's the way I do now is far more effective and exciting.

[Bishop Steiner]

CocoaJin, on 29 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

But at least you can learn to become skilled and high effective with direct fire, vomit or not. With my lasers or ACs, I can skillfully and quickly dis-arm a target, blow out his exposed structure, aim for a possible headshot(got two the other day in like 5 games with my HBK-4G's AC20), leg a light, destroy an Atlas' AC20 and SRMs.

I can adjust my gunnery strategy to the situation...but the LRM guy just sprays and prays LRMs that have no skill based component in terms of dispatching the enemy. It's just sprinkle damage on the guy until it eventually dies. They take all control out of engaging the target, short of positioning(which is a skill) and putting the pip on the dorito bracket for the lock. It's almost as bad as the American attempt to use bats as time bombs in Japan.

pretty biased and inaccurate in almost all parts, aside from the precision placement. It's true with LRMs you cannot control that. But to effectively use LRMs and maintain locks, in this ecm and cover filled game, and do it from distances that are actually effective, is a heck of a lot more work than any of my brawlers.

Vandul, on 29 May 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

There's a huge difference between "LOLURMBOATZ" and Fire Support mechs. It took me a while to learn that. Playing LRM's the way I do now is far more effective and exciting.

I learned that back in CB when I finally learned to use my C1 effectively (and before the alphas became so high, 12 man focus fire so intense,that i got insta cored) and that meant being in range to use my lasers the whole time, too. And learning how to maintain that cushion where all your weapons were effective. Then the Raven forced me to drop a laser for TAG, which wasn't a huge deal, until powercreep and quirks gave up the GaussWhale, and other Peek/Vomit mechs.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

And seriously, ANYBODY can hold a tag laser on target. You don't have aim at components, you just have to have it on some part of them.

Gas Guzzler, on 29 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Uhhh....I don't know about you but I try to put as much damage I can on a specific component.

LRMs, yeah you have to stare at your target more. How convenient for those who don't know how to torso twist. I guess the best place to be is behind cover, with weapons that shoot over cover, so you don't have to worry about spreading damage.

And seriously, ANYBODY can hold a tag laser on target. You don't have aim at components, you just have to have it on some part of them.

Gas Guzzler, on 29 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Uhhh....I don't know about you but I try to put as much damage I can on a specific component.

LRMs, yeah you have to stare at your target more. How convenient for those who don't know how to torso twist. I guess the best place to be is behind cover, with weapons that shoot over cover, so you don't have to worry about spreading damage.

And seriously, ANYBODY can hold a tag laser on target. You don't have aim at components, you just have to have it on some part of them.

You have undermined your own argument.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

LRMs require you to be able to hold that near range red box, for a heck of a lot longer than lasers, where let's be honest, for most players it more spray and pray than "aiming". If LRMs were so easy to aim, they wouldn't register the lowest average accuracy rate of any weapon in the game.

In that case, it's probably more about travel time that causes them to lose lock before they get the chance to hit. There's also terrain interception and AMS to muddy the waters. Maybe even hitreg is involved for some folks.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 29 May 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

In that case, it's probably more about travel time that causes them to lose lock before they get the chance to hit. There's also terrain interception and AMS to muddy the waters. Maybe even hitreg is involved for some folks.

all of which do what? Yep, RAISE the skillcap to be effective with them.

Boy, the way people froth at the mouth talking about LRMs (this part not aimed at you, Fup), you'd think we were talking ECM or 3pV here.....

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 May 2015 - 04:36 PM.

[Averen]

LRMs have both a lows skill ceiling and a low skill floor. It's basically the noobtube, the smartgun of MWO. Doesn't usually do much damage, but if you get under heavy fire skill doesn't matter too much either. And as many of the lowskill-weapons it's detrimental to the games dynamic, since it, similar to laser-vomit, heavily encourages passive and cowardly play.
There are some slightly more difficult modells like the fast medium lrm-striker, compared to the classic lrm-boat, but that one is mostly also just about a) abusing the broken cockpit shake system where a single rocket hitting your toe and a 40 missile salvo do the same blinding shake. Just look at how many of them use lrm-salvos. And those mechs are still relying on the way lrm's are only really countered by hiding behind cover, since you can't outrun, shield, or supress the attacker. It's not exactly hard to 'flank' someone when you're doing it from 800m distance.


While those issues are also true to a degree about laservomit, that's mostly just the combination of clan mechs and laser, which is - at leas in the meta's sense - overpowered. The combination of mobility, range and alpha-damage (backed by 20+dhs) just doesn't fit into a game which took big strides rowards making long range weapons like (ER)PPCs and Gauß extra difficult to use.
Stalker 4N btw also fits to some degree in here, although that thing is at least relatively slow and has very limited torso yaw, making it a much worse mech in close combat. TDR5SS is worthy of discussion, but more limited in speed and range. Really, if you're afraid of the thunder, try a 6MPL stormcrow. It's insane.

Edited by Averen, 29 May 2015 - 04:44 PM.