384 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

I didn't realize that Bishop was an LRM boating noob...



jk, jk!

[Burktross]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

pretty biased and inaccurate in almost all parts, aside from the precision placement. It's true with LRMs you cannot control that. But to effectively use LRMs and maintain locks, in this ecm and cover filled game, and do it from distances that are actually effective, is a heck of a lot more work than any of my brawlers.


I learned that back in CB when I finally learned to use my C1 effectively (and before the alphas became so high, 12 man focus fire so intense,that i got insta cored) and that meant being in range to use my lasers the whole time, too. And learning how to maintain that cushion where all your weapons were effective. Then the Raven forced me to drop a laser for TAG, which wasn't a huge deal, until powercreep and quirks gave up the GaussWhale, and other Peek/Vomit mechs.

Lrms require tactical finese.
Direct fire requires the finese of dexterity.
/thread :^)

[Gas Guzzler]

Nathan Foxbane, on 29 May 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

You have undermined your own argument.

Only in your own world I'm afraid. Let me explain how TAG works to you because it seems like you don't understand.

A tag laser is just as effective if it is pointed at a leg as it is pointed at a head or a CT. You can put it anywhere and have the same effect, or you can drag it all around a mech and it does the same thing. In order to be effective with lasers, you actually have to hold on to ONE component (CT or ST, depending on mech) and keep it there, and repeatedly shoot that same spot, in order to destroy it. TAG on the other hand, just needs to touch the mech, it doesn't matter where, and you don't have to point it at the CT to do damage to CT. Do you understand the difference now???

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

all of which do what? Yep, RAISE the skillcap to be effective with them.

I don't classify those as parts of the weapon's mechanics themselves, those are more about the counterplay of the red team. There is a distinction.

Initially easier to use, but also massively easier to counter.


EDIT: I still think that Lurms should be redesigned such that where you point them has an actual effect, and while being more reliable across-the-board instead of needing the stars to align.

Edited by FupDup, 29 May 2015 - 04:38 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Edit: Duplicate post

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 29 May 2015 - 04:38 PM.

[MechaBattler]

What bothers me is that I can't reasonably mix a loadout with LRMs without adding at the very least Tag and take up an energy slot in doing so. Because this being ECMwarrior online, it would be a paperweight. Even though I have to keep the stupid thing on target long enough to get a lock. Then they gotta fly and spread there damage everywhere. Essentially making their casual use in a build a liability.

[Vandul]

LRM's are funny. They are fairly easy (at least used to be) to use in Puglandia as a new player, but there is an artificial ceiling that you hit where you might get 1-2 kills per game, 200-450 damage.

Once you realize you are most effective running with the vanguard, keeping your flight times <400 meters, doing your own tagging/UAV's, and (pay attention here) mounting some back up weapons, you can make a difference. Also, you dont need to wade into combat carrying 2500 rounds of LRM ammo. Just stop.

And the assaults are preferred sometimes, because of the weapons, etc... But a good medium with Artemis, and a trio of 10 packs, or 5x5 packs is far more mobile, reactive and deadly.

[Bilbo]

Averen, on 29 May 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

LRMs have both a lows skill ceiling and a low skill floor. It's basically the noobtube, the smartgun of MWO. Doesn't usually do much damage, but if you get under heavy fire skill doesn't matter too much either. And as all of the lowskill-weapons it's detrimental to the games dynamic, since it, although similar to laser-vomit, heavily encourages passive and cowardly play.
There are some slightly more difficult modells like the fast medium lrm-striker, compared to the classic lrm-boat, but that one is mostly also just about a) abusing the broken cockpit-shaker system where a single rocket hitting your toe and a 40 missile salvo do the same blinding shake, and the way lrm's are only really countered by hidding behind cover, since you can't outrun them (below 100kph).
While those issues are also true to a degree about laservomit, that's mostly just as issue because the combination of clan mechs and laser is - at leas in the meta's sense - overpowered. The combination of mobility, range and alpha-damage just doesn't fit into a game which took big strides rowards making long range weapons like (ER)PPCs and Gauß extra difficult to use.

Lrms are countered by closing under cover and wrecking the mechs that are using them. It is the one true hard counter to them and it always works.

[Haakon Magnusson]

I'll add that actually in the current crappy HSR climate (At least my ping) lasers and LRMs are weapons that have a fairly good chance of registering with some reliability.

[CocoaJin]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

pretty biased and inaccurate in almost all parts, aside from the precision placement. It's true with LRMs you cannot control that. But to effectively use LRMs and maintain locks, in this ecm and cover filled game, and do it from distances that are actually effective, is a heck of a lot more work than any of my brawlers.

I can see it as lots of work if you are playing the grenadier role, the lateral velocities are faster and you are likely getting your own locks while using BAP and NARCs.

But that's a whole other level of play over the field artillery guys in the back. For them, locking and firing is hard work like whack a mole is hard work.

[Setun]

Think the biggest problem with any meta is the sheer amount of people running it. If 1-3 mechs run it it's fine, but when you have 7+ people running it at the same time then it's a problem.

[Averen]

Bilbo, on 29 May 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

Lrms are countered by closing under cover and wrecking the mechs that are using them. It is the one true hard counter to them and it always works.

Correct, also works reliable for the most part. That way you need to center your whole strategy about getting rid of a weapon which doesn't really need much of anything to do at least some damage, though. Which is kinda the epitome of the newbie-weapon.

Edited by Averen, 29 May 2015 - 05:02 PM.

[Bilbo]

Averen, on 29 May 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

Correct, also works reliable for the most part. That way you need to center your whole strategy about getting rid of a weapon which doesn't really need much of anything to do damage, though. Which is kinda the epitome of the newbie-weapon.

If you use your whole team to do it, you are doing it wrong. Likewise, if your whole team is cowering behind rocks waiting for the rain to end, you are doing it wrong.

[ArchAngelWC]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Just for debate.

I hear all the time, that because of Lock On, LRMs are a no skill weapon.

I submit, because of hitscan, and accuracy percentage being shown as a "hit" even if the laser only brushed the target for a tick, is just as no skill, or more.

The sheer amount of people out there swinging their no skill Large Lasers around the map like Lightsabers is pathetic. Yes, they hit. A little bit, and usually spread all over the enemy mech. A blind, deaf chimpanzee could hit with lasers in MWO. What skill does that take?

Ah, but wait!

"To focus damage on one component takes mad skill" says the Tryhard.

And I agree. For those few who are able to do that, at anything but point blank range.

And I submit, to paint all LRM Users as new skill newbs, is just as inaccurate and disingenuous.

There is no single weapon with as many counters, and weaknesses, as LRMs.

Counters:
-Cover.
-AMS.
-Radar Derp Module.
-ECM.

Weaknesses:
-180 meter Minimum Range. Shorter maximum range than almost any other "long range" weapon.
-Inefficient damage spread, like an LB-X.
-Requires TAG, BAP and Artemis (and preferably a teammate with NARC and UAVs)to achieve maximum potential, removing crits, and hardpoints and tonnage, when already needing huge amount of ammo to justify in the first place.
-160 m/s projectile speed. Not only do acquiring locks, even with TAG take quite a while, exposed to PP-FLD return fire, but maintaining the lock is required, and at max range it requires that lock to be held fo 6.8 seconds, or the shot is wasted. Nearly 7 seconds for the enemy unit to brush off the lock. Even at shorter range, it take near 3 seconds AFTER acquiring a lock, to bring ordinance on target.

Fact is, for LRMs to be optimal, requires the LRM Mech to be 300.500 meters away, requiring over 2-3 seconds of exposure from time of seeing the target, to acquiring lock (IF the enemy isn't shielded by ecm) and Missiles arriving on target. And that only works if the enemy can't break LoS (particularly with Target Derp) or grab cover.

I submit, for arguments sake, that in all but Comp Tiers (LRMs are simply too slow and clumsy to be useful against mass lazer/gauss zerg rushes) to EFFICIENTLY and EFFECTIVELY use LRMs requires as much, if not more skill, as our Lazor Overlords.

Simple truth is, 90% of LaserSpammers are just as bad as 90% of LRMboats.


Argue away.

despite me believing LRMs should miss a ton more if you are moving....yah they are not horrible right now....just OP if you are in the open lol

[Moldur]

Flamers are the only weapon that requires skill because they're hard to use effectively.

[YueFei]

People focus too much on the mechanical dexterity required to aim direct-fire versus aiming LRMs.

A highly-skilled Chess player doesn't need great hand-eye coordination. But his skill is still acknowledged, just a different kind of skill.

Besides, I've seen some of Jman5's vids on the use of LRMs, his technique is quite interesting to watch. He trades salvos against direct-fire mechs and wins those by ducking in/out exposing only the head and RT briefly to refresh TAG/lock-on, taking advantage of the HBK's acceleration and braking. He's exposed for a split second each time, often ducking back down before the enemy can hit him. He uses the HBK's speed to flank around and get shots that bypass the enemy's hard cover. It's totally different from the slow-mo Assault LRM platform's playstyle. It may not require amazing pixel-perfect shooting skill, but the fancy footwork is fun to watch.

[Bishop Steiner]

CocoaJin, on 29 May 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

I can see it as lots of work if you are playing the grenadier role, the lateral velocities are faster and you are likely getting your own locks while using BAP and NARCs.

But that's a whole other level of play over the field artillery guys in the back. For them, locking and firing is hard work like whack a mole is hard work.

a point I thought I touched on in my OP.

Neither Laser nor LRMs require much of any skill, when just spammed, as the masses do. But to use either, in a truly effective manner, does take skill. Yet only the laser crowd is recognized as possessing such, when I would contest that it's easier in most cases to control your laser damage than LRMs.

[1453 R]

Some Really Nice Lurmishers I've Run, as Examples. So People Stop Thinking 80-tube Stalkers are the Only Things with Missiles.

TBT-7M: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b87585416305b17

-This is a somewhat offbeat build that doesn’t move quite as well as I like for a medium Lurmisher – three jets is about two jets too few, and 80kph Tweaked is defo dragging its heels a bit – but it’s one of those unfortunate necessities. That said, this is easily the most punishing medium Lurmisher I know of while its ammo holds out. 30-warhead salvoes fired over fifty percent faster than usual (you ARE using LRM15 Cooldown 5, right?) will deal a rampaging buttpile of damage in a hurry against anything you catch out. You’re not going to get a lot of 1500-damage games with this thing, and no doubt people will look at it and go “six tons of ammo and no backups? EUWW!”, and they have a point – but even after you run dry you can TAG/BAP for your team or bodyblock enemies to keep them from maneuvering. I’ve killed* more than one JagerMech or Dire Whale as an unarmed stick by ramming myself right up against it and stopping it from maneuvering away from my team. I tend to pay for it with my life, of course - but so does the enemy.

Besides. Six tons of concentrated, well-aimed LRM ammo that goes exactly where I want it to is a whole helluva lot more effective than twelve tons of LRM ammo that hits the sides of every hill, building, bunker and Bishop this side of Creation in the vain pursuit of indirect kills.

SCR-(whatever): http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cdbf8dbb263eea2

-The Stormcrow has everything it needs to be one of the burst Lurmishers on the Clan side, just like it has everything it needs to be one of the best everything-else on the Clan side. This is my favorite SCR Lurmisher, and it still works(ish) even after the Beamurder nerfs. 30-warhead salvos offer plenty of shake, rattle and roll, and you have enough ammo to use them heavily if not wastefully. More importantly, you have considerable backup armaments in the form of a quartet of cERML which can often compliment a midrange Lurmishing attack. Head-mounted TAG gives you a job no matter what else you lose. Ammo is split between RT and LA specifically so that losing the right side doesn’t automatically invalidate the launchers – eggs and baskets and all that.

TDR-5S(P): The Thunder Hammer

-This is one of my favorite Spheroid-side ‘Mechs of all time, and to this day I have no idea why. It makes no godsdamned sense, and yet it works so beautifully. The original Thunder Hammer carried an ER-PPC (as well as less ammo) over the large laser pre-Quirkening in the high-mounted chin energy slot in the ‘Mech’s LT and specialized in the 300-500 meter range bracket, delivering PPC fire and dense 25-warhead LRM salvos as appropriate. It’s the very definition of a fire support ‘Mech, and yet I’ve won more than my share of close-quarters duels with it against damaged foes who figured the thing that had been spewing LRMs at them was easy prey in close. The TAG arm gives me a much wider engagement arc with the LRMs at full density (and also keeps my much more valuable beams in the torso, where they don’t fall off when my giant gorilla arms do), and with an LRM-15 cooldown module the missiles have nearly identical cycle times, which keeps my missile flights nice and tight-packed. In its second-line fire support role the Thunder Hammer hull-downs like a boss – all you see is my missile launcher and the focusing lens for my large laser. And then all you see is explosions. So good. Only Xl Thunderbolt you’ll ever see, and so far as I can tell the only one worth the trouble.

[Mazzyplz]

laservomit is best known as the secondary/backup weapon of no skill lurmboats

[Apnu]

Scout Derek, on 29 May 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

I don't argue, but when I do, I prefer the taste of dosmechies(George Ledoux reference ><)

No, I agree, Lrms are really weak. When was training my Mad Dog I ran the 6 lrms. But over two thirds of the time I just couldn't get a lock unless there was a uav up. I eventually just switched to 2 lrm 15, 2 Large pulse and 2 medium. Direct weapons are always needed when you run lrms, because they aren't always a primary weapon to use. ECM just loves to negate :/

Balanced mechs for the win! Min/Maxing is for cheeseballs.