384 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I feel like there should be another LRM Festivus... just for "old patch days sake".

As soon as that "accident" happens, we can get this out of our systems a bit (except for the few crazies that want LRMs to stay that way...)

[xWiredx]

I'll see all of your guys' "X weapon takes more skill" arguments and raise you a "it isn't the weapon, it's the pilot."

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 29 May 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

I feel like there should be another LRM Festivus... just for "old patch days sake".

As soon as that "accident" happens, we can get this out of our systems a bit (except for the few crazies that want LRMs to stay that way...)

Hah another one of those Lurmpocalypses would be entertaining. Like when all the LRM's fall straight down and 50% of them hit cockpits, like when Tourmaline released.

Be wierd with the massive increase in ECM these days... I wonder how many people would take them?

[Ragtag soldier]

xWiredx, on 29 May 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

I'll see all of your guys' "X weapon takes more skill" arguments and raise you a "it isn't the weapon, it's the pilot."

that's a copout though. lasers are literally point and click, while LRMs can be evaded by all sorts of tools that the targeted player doesn't even need to be using themselves. lasers are objectively easier to reliably hit with wimply because there's less things that can go wrong.

[Zordicron]

The answer to this question, and all questions regarding meta and balance:

What is the meta weapon today? THAT is the weapon that is easiest to use.

Tryhards all huff and puff their chests like they have mad elite skillz, but everything they use is:

A- the most reliable dmg delivery based on HSR
B- The easiest to aim and deliver said dmg.

lasers were easier to aim, but had **** HSR. So the next easiest thing was high velocity projectiles, gauss and PPC. then we had a gauss mechanic added, so we went to AC5's. Then we nerfed PPC velocity, and AC5's stand alone is pretty weak, BUT we fixed laser HSR for the most part so it didnt matter. And here we at laser vomit.

"LRM are bad n00b weapons" is both true and false at the same time. I put something to that effect in Allistair's thread too, the skill "bottom" is in nose picker range, but in order to actually perform very well, you need to have a ton of awareness and grasp on battle flow, positioning and your team mates actions. There is no crutch, so tryhards wont touch them.

[Xmith]

You know what sucks? Not having LRMs on my team. There could be a couple of mechs narced and no missiles.This is when you feel like a slot might be wasted.

I always hold locks. The lock is for my entire team. I want my team to know where I am and help me kill this mech. LRM support or who ever, lets get this kill and try to win this match.

Winning should be on everyone's mind. You make a lot more money when you win. So I would think one will do what ever it takes (no cheats) to win the match. Locks and focus fire helps win matches.

I welcome LRMs. Every little bit helps.

[Novakaine]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Just for debate.

I hear all the time, that because of Lock On, LRMs are a no skill weapon.

I submit, because of hitscan, and accuracy percentage being shown as a "hit" even if the laser only brushed the target for a tick, is just as no skill, or more.

The sheer amount of people out there swinging their no skill Large Lasers around the map like Lightsabers is pathetic. Yes, they hit. A little bit, and usually spread all over the enemy mech. A blind, deaf chimpanzee could hit with lasers in MWO. What skill does that take?

Ah, but wait!

"To focus damage on one component takes mad skill" says the Tryhard.

And I agree. For those few who are able to do that, at anything but point blank range.

And I submit, to paint all LRM Users as new skill newbs, is just as inaccurate and disingenuous.

There is no single weapon with as many counters, and weaknesses, as LRMs.

Counters:
-Cover.
-AMS.
-Radar Derp Module.
-ECM.

Weaknesses:
-180 meter Minimum Range. Shorter maximum range than almost any other "long range" weapon.
-Inefficient damage spread, like an LB-X.
-Requires TAG, BAP and Artemis (and preferably a teammate with NARC and UAVs)to achieve maximum potential, removing crits, and hardpoints and tonnage, when already needing huge amount of ammo to justify in the first place.
-160 m/s projectile speed. Not only do acquiring locks, even with TAG take quite a while, exposed to PP-FLD return fire, but maintaining the lock is required, and at max range it requires that lock to be held fo 6.8 seconds, or the shot is wasted. Nearly 7 seconds for the enemy unit to brush off the lock. Even at shorter range, it take near 3 seconds AFTER acquiring a lock, to bring ordinance on target.

Fact is, for LRMs to be optimal, requires the LRM Mech to be 300.500 meters away, requiring over 2-3 seconds of exposure from time of seeing the target, to acquiring lock (IF the enemy isn't shielded by ecm) and Missiles arriving on target. And that only works if the enemy can't break LoS (particularly with Target Derp) or grab cover.

I submit, for arguments sake, that in all but Comp Tiers (LRMs are simply too slow and clumsy to be useful against mass lazer/gauss zerg rushes) to EFFICIENTLY and EFFECTIVELY use LRMs requires as much, if not more skill, as our Lazor Overlords.

Simple truth is, 90% of LaserSpammers are just as bad as 90% of LRMboats.


Argue away.

And you know what I like to say.........

[Thunder Child]

As I've stated in another post, LRMs as they are now are bad.

When the stars align, and everything is right in PugLand, LRMs can (and quite often will) Slaughter entire teams.
Every other time. The LRMBucket Dies a horrible fiery death, and complains that his team didn't support him.

INDIRECT LRM FIRE has one the lowest entry level skill sets in the game. Any Muppet can point and click. The same can be said for any Missile, Laser, or (Non-Goose) Ballistic weapon. It's all, Point Click Hit Damage Win!
The "Skill" comes into play, when you get things like hitting the same component repeatedly (Direct Fire), Holding the Beam on Target (Lasers), leading that one in a million PPC shot on the Firestarter at 700m (PPCs, obviously), or putting both Slugs into (yet another bloody) Firestarter and taking a leg (Ballistics, but primarily Goose at 800+, Or AC20s at 300). For LRMs, the "Skill" gets involved when you're trying to hit a Primary Target in an ECM protected Mob, your Narcer has eaten a Gauss round to the face, and you're frantically repositioning to stay outside of 180m, but inside the 270m BAP. There's intermittent cover overhead, so you have to make sure that not only your fire arc, but also the receiver arc is unobstructed, and you have to make sure the 2 sec travel time isn't going to put the target undercover, or break lock.

All said and done. LRMs at the Top of their skill Cap makes them almost impossible to use, and so people play Gauss, or Laser, or AC, because it's EASIER!

So. What I propose, to bring LRMs back down to "Twitch Skill" level, is to remove locking entirely. Increase Flight Speed to 400m/s. And give them a predicted trajectory, which allows you to indirectly aim them, manually. Ever play a first person shooter, and use a Grenade Launcher? You know, that weapon that has the funny little Triangles beneath the crosshair? The ones that you use for shooting up over walls at long distances. Oh wait, most twitch players use it like a shotgun. My bad.

WELL, how LRMs should work, is like that. Rather than having the missiles randomly explode at 1000m, have that instead be the fall point where they hit the ground. The lower you aim, the closer to you that they land. With the loss of tracking, give them a buff to flight speed. Suddenly, Indirect LRMs require skill to hit, BUT they are not Negated by ever bloody thing under the sun. Remove the No-Damage Minimum Range. The reason LRMs HAVE a minimum range is not to do with an arming time, but because at close range they are meant to be very, VERY, hard to hit with. Which would now be the same, because to hit within 180m, you pretty much have to be looking at your own toes. Well, that's my interpretation on how to Make LRMs a "Skill" weapon.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

given that LRMs are the most nerfed weapon in the game, no

Thunder Child, on 29 May 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

The reason LRMs HAVE a minimum range is not to do with an arming time, but because at close range they are meant to be very, VERY, hard to hit with. terpretation on how to Make LRMs a "Skill" weapon.

no... Its because he warheads dont arm before they reach the minimum range. Google Sarna and LRM

http://www.reddit.co...l_spam_weapons/

Best way I can put it lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 29 May 2015 - 06:52 PM.

[cSand]

it's not the weapon it''s the playstyle/pilot

and the "hang back and press one button periodically" playstyle is lame no matter if it's LRMs or giant laser alphas or w/e else you are one-finger-warrioring. Low skill/balls requirement allows even some of the stankiest players to float to the top of the bowl from time to time, and frankly but unfortunately it is also the most efficient which is why you get even some of the best groups just slanging from way back. If you just wanna win it doesn't really matter.

Like vanish/X-zone in FF3



Now as far as those big groups are concerned they aren't really the issue here because 8-12 guys should be able to win any time regardless of what they're running, but you get legions of tryhard wannabes doing the same thing, then proclaiming w/e mech or weapon to be OP because a couple guys cornered them into a brawl and it turned into a sh*tshow real quick

Edited by cSand, 29 May 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[Shell Game]

To call Laser Vomit users laser spammers is totally absurd. Other than Gauss and batteries of 5-6 Uac/5's this is the only viable path for clan mechs to achieve pinpoint damage, that "yes" require "aim".

The only player I've seen in game utilize lurms as an effective threat, who needs to be accountable by an enemy team, is Jman5.

[Thunder Child]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 29 May 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

given that LRMs are the most nerfed weapon in the game, no





no... Its because he warheads dont arm before they reach the minimum range. Google Sarna and LRM

http://www.reddit.co...l_spam_weapons/

Best way I can put it lol

Incorrect. Sarna, and all the Battletech Master Rules both state that the reason Inner Sphere LRMs have a minimum range is due to them firing at a Ballistic Angle, resulting in reduced accuracy at short range. Clan LRMs do not have this flaw, because they were designed for honourable one on one duels, not engaging an enemy indirectly at long range.

Edit: I believe the Fallacy of Minimum Arming Distance came up in one of the novels, and has since become Fact. Much like "Stackpoling".

Edited by Thunder Child, 29 May 2015 - 07:09 PM.

[LordNothing]

you know what really takes balls of steel and has almost no benefit. scouting.

it takes considerable skill to find a location where you are hard to see, where you have a good view of the target and can maintain locks. if you fire your weapons while doing this you will give away your position and die shortly thereafter. so to be a good scrout you need to avoid firing actual weapons. and this is just to hold locks, if you want to take a more proactive approach, you are going to have a very bad game indeed.

tags have the same problem as shooting any other weapon, they give away your location. sometimes i wish tags would work in the MW:LL way, where only you and your team can see your tags and they are invisible to the other team, what you see is essentially a hud overlay (though in MW:LL you can see tags in night vision mode).

narc is a little bit more stealthy, but at four tons (launcher+ammo) it really takes a bite out of your loadout. on a light mech with ecm, thats pretty much half your weapons by weight. so you have very little real fire power. the ultimate scout is running in and dropping a uav right under their noses. its often a suicidal strategy, but is quite effective, but you can only do it once. and it costs you your precious cbills (which you are totally not getting as a scout). your ecm also can give you away if you get too close to the enemy, which is what a good uav drop requires. drop it too far from the team they will see it and shoot id town, but get close they will get disruption, start looking for ecm and shoot you down.

most of those rewards often are dependent on other team mates using the intel. chances are if you drop in a properly equipped scout, you arent going to have 20 tubes amongst your team. even if you narc every enemy on the other team you dont get paid unless they get rained on. they really need to reward scouting efforts even if the team is stupid or ill equipped to take advantage of the intel. there is a reason most lights run as assault hunters, looking to back stab that lone direwhale who thinks hes king of the world until a locust brings him crashing to the ground.

pgi can totally fix this. reward successful tagging/narcing/spotting regardless of damage done by the team (damage should be gravy). tag should be invisible to the enemy under normal vision. make 2 kinds of ecm so that you can get the low detectability without the protection bubble giving you away (lights can run guardian and heavies can run angel, you can use them interchangeably, but angel would weigh more). increase active time of narcs and drones. uav detection rewards need to be proportional to the number of mechs revealed in addition to damage. tagging needs to reward based on hold time. lots of things could be done to ease the plight of scouts.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 May 2015 - 07:11 PM.

[Thunder Child]

Agreed LordNothing. Though one thing I'd say, is rather than having multiple ECM types, what they could look at doing is Passive and Active Sensors, much like MW:LL or MW4.

[LordNothing]

i would love active/passive (as well as simulation style targeting). though i think 2 ecm options would be easier for pgi to implement.

[stealthraccoon]

Autocannons and PPC's are the only thing that take any effort to be effective with. Heck, even SRM's make you lead a bit.

And don't give me any oh this honorable garbage, lasers are a point and click interface - no range estimating, hold over or delay; spray n pray doesn't impress me. How about increasing the penalties for friendly fire, too many people are gunning without knowing what they are hitting.

Edited by stealthraccoon, 29 May 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[Thunder Child]

For that they'd have to nerf Guardian though. Which they are unlikely to ever do. Currently it's a Guardian Sized Angel suite with bonus Stealth Armor for free.

stealthraccoon, on 29 May 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

Autocannons and PPC's are the only thing that take any effort to be effective with.

And don't give me any oh this honorable garbage, lasers are a point and click interface - no range estimating, hold over or delay; spray n pray doesn't impress me. How about increasing the penalties for friendly fire, too many people are gunning without knowing what they are hitting.

As someone who runs a Quad PPC Warhawk, and frequently tags mediums, and occasionally lights, at 800+ (though I have much room to improve, as I cannot, yet, hit the same component at that range) I totally agree that PPCs and ACs are where it's at for actually needing a baseline skill set.

[Bishop Steiner]

Do love all the minds snapped shut tighter than a rusty steel trap.

As for Jman5? Great 4J guy. Crazy fact? He's not as alone at it as some of you would believe. Maybe not as many AS good (just as I have yet to see a 4P pilot equal to Koreanese, in 3 yrs), but more than enough of a threat.

But the best part about closed minds? Means you keep underestimating all the wrong people.

Enjoy.

[Chuanhao]

Each weapon has a noob mode and expert mode

Expert mode for LRMs are those that can fire without locks, get into positions that provide line of sight and Artemis bonus, move while maintaining locks, and configure their boats well, often with less armour, more speed, and with one or two short range backup weapons.

Noob mode is that which hides in a corner, waits for others to lock, and doesn't realise that the missiles are hitting the outside of terra thermal since the enemy is "inside"

Expert laser users can hold their aim better, expert PPCs can aim off, Expert ballistics account for trajectory.

So no one should show any disrespect to anyone else for selecting a particular weapon system. Instead, one should give constructive advise to noobs to not Fire LRMs within 180, hold locks on targets after missiles are released etc. I benefitted from such advise when noobing. Others would too.

CW is another thing though.

[Lightfoot]

Lasers=the real no skill weapon. That's why it is MWO's favored weapon.