65 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

lordtzar, on 12 June 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

CB can't switch out it's engine or remove the fixed heat sinks.

Jager can fit a smaller engine.

CB is faster
CB can do asymmetrical and shield with the left


Jager is better at hillhumping
Jager has quirks

Clan Gauss 12 tons.

IS Gauss 15 tons.

Damage, health, explode chance are exactly the same, which needs to be addressed.

If PGI intentionally stream-fired Clan's lighter ACs to balance with the heavier PPFLD IS ACs, then Gauss must also need balancing between the two factions. After all, there is three tons worth of difference. Each.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 June 2015 - 04:35 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Perhaps raise the CD on IS Gauss to 6s but remove the charging mechanism. That would fit with the theme that Clan robots and weapons are for the "elites".

[El Bandito]

Hit the Deck, on 12 June 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

Perhaps raise the CD on IS Gauss to 6s but remove the charging mechanism. That would fit with the theme that Clan robots and weapons are for the "elites".

I'm fine with that. But Grid Iron Gauss quirks will need to be nerfed at the same time.

[J0anna]

TexAss, on 12 June 2015 - 02:44 AM, said:

Damn, 28tons on a 65 ton mech. That is a lot room for weapons and heatsinks, considering the low weight of clan weapons....

powercreep goes on.

I hope it has terrible moving arcs, speeds and hitboxes otherwise this will be too OP. its just positive on all aspects till now, I hope a negative point will show itself when it arrives.

I love inane comments like these, it shows the how little some people understand battletech and MWO.

1) Do you seriously think Rotary AC's, Heavy Lasers, Heavy Gauss, MRM's, Heavy Machine Guns, ATM's, and Heavy PPC's will do less damage than today's current weapons? Battletech was an arms race, weapons will become more deadly as the timeline advances. Tech 1 weapons (3025) were never going to compete with tech 3 weapons. Powercreep is part of Battletech. As the timeline advances, weapons will hit harder and at longer range then what is available now.

2) The EBJ is a 65 ton mech, as such it is limited by having less armor than the Timberwolf. Don't expect it to behave the same.

3) The EBJ is a very wide mech, meaning that even Helen Keller should be able to place effective side torso shots, or it's CT will be huge (add this to having a 65 ton mech's armor). Bottom line, it will be much easier to hit than a Jager....

4) The inability to change engines is a huge nerf to clan mechs, add in the (much) higher heat of clan weapons in general and those 28 tons are FAR less than IS mechs. My jager easily carries 2xAC5's, 6xML's and 6 tons of ammo (28 tons) with tonnage to spare for extra heatsinks. Good luck trying to use that on an EBJ w/o roasting yourself. If PGI ever releases the IIC battlemechs, watch out (same as if/when PGI lets IS mechs use clan weapons).

5) Remember when the HBR came out it's huge CT made the mech nearly useless, the EBJ's will probably be just as easy to hit from any angle.

6) Lastly, you know going in that the EBJ can carry a more weapons than the Summoner, Mad Dog or the Hellbringer, yet should be easy to hit and have a 65 ton's mech's armor. If you choose to not primary it and take it down quickly, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Edited by Moenrg, 12 June 2015 - 04:40 AM.

[LordBraxton]

lordtzar, on 12 June 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

Jager can fit a smaller engine.

CB is faster
CB can do asymmetrical and shield with the left

Jager is better at hillhumping
Jager has quirks

Quirks exist to balance IS weapons vs clan weapons, that isn't an advantage, and let's see how the EJ performs before directly comparing and contrasting. Jagers have high mounted guns but they are very boxy and easy to poke in the CT, even while humping.

Hit the Deck, on 12 June 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

Perhaps raise the CD on IS Gauss to 6s but remove the charging mechanism. That would fit with the theme that Clan robots and weapons are for the "elites".

no thanks, I like the charge mechanic

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 12 June 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

That's cause you forgot that each Clan Gauss is THREE tons lighter than IS Gauss. Try to run that Dual Gauss Jager with 325 XL, like the Black Jag; you won't get more than a ton of ammo before stripping the armor.

The IS Gauss really needs to be balanced with the much lighter Clan Gauss. More HP, or less chance to explode, at the least.

I didn't forget anything.

The IS mech can use a smaller engine, and every* (maybe one or two don't, but 90%+ do) have significant ballistic quirks, the majority of which are an average of 10% cooldown.

Once you put those IS gauss rifles on mechs, they perform noticeably better than cgauss.

[LordBraxton]

Moenrg, on 12 June 2015 - 04:37 AM, said:

I love inane comments like these, it shows the how little some people understand battletech and MWO.

1) Do you seriously think Rotary AC's, Heavy Lasers, Heavy Gauss, MRM's, Heavy Machine Guns, ATM's, and Heavy PPC's will do less damage than today's current weapons? Battletech was an arms race, weapons will become more deadly as the timeline advances. Tech 1 weapons (3025) were never going to compete with tech 3 weapons. Powercreep is part of Battletech. As the timeline advances, weapons will hit harder and at longer range then what is available now.

2) The EBJ is a 65 ton mech, as such it is limited by having less armor than the Timberwolf. Don't expect it to behave the same.

3) The EBJ is a very wide mech, meaning that even Helen Keller should be able to place effective side torso shots, or it's CT will be huge (add this to having a 65 ton mech's armor). Bottom line, it will be much easier to hit than a Jager....

4) The inability to change engines is a huge nerf to clan mechs, add in the (much) higher heat of clan weapons in general and those 28 tons are FAR less than IS mechs. My jager easily carries 2xAC5's, 6xML's and 6 tons of ammo (28 tons) with tonnage to spare for extra heatsinks. Good luck trying to use that on an EBJ w/o roasting yourself. If PGI ever releases the IIC battlemechs, watch out (same as if/when PGI lets IS mechs use clan weapons).

5) Remember when the HBR came out it's huge CT made the mech nearly useless, the EBJ's will probably be just as easy to hit from any angle.

6) Lastly, you know going in that the EBJ can carry a more weapons than the Summoner, Mad Dog or the Hellbringer, yet should be easy to hit and have a 65 ton's mech's armor. If you choose to not primary it and take it down quickly, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

I love comments like this that show how little some people understand video games. -So because FASA used horrible power creep to sell minis, it's a good idea to use horrible power creep to sell digital mechs? That's some sound logic. It ruined BT and it's ruining this game as well. -The EJ is nova sized, it is not large in any way for a 65 tonner, it is not even wide for a 65 tonner, it just looks wide because it is now the shortest heavy in the game by a large margin. -It has an excellent starting engine and I probably wouldn't change it even If I had the choice.

[El Bandito]

Wintersdark, on 12 June 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

I didn't forget anything.

The IS mech can use a smaller engine, and every* (maybe one or two don't, but 90%+ do) have significant ballistic quirks, the majority of which are an average of 10% cooldown.

Once you put those IS gauss rifles on mechs, they perform noticeably better than cgauss.

Which means nothing when it comes to weapon to weapon balance. Otherwise, PGI would have left Clan ACs and LRMs with FLD, since the IS has plenty of AC and LRM quirks. Instead, PGI had intentionally given them stagger-fire to account for their lighter weight and lesser slot. Similar balancing must happen to the Gauss. More HP or less explode chance for IS Gauss is as good start as any.


Quirks must be balanced on the account of the weapons, not the other way around. One is core game mechanic, the other is just a band-aid.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 June 2015 - 05:10 AM.

[Lord0fHats]

El Bandito, on 12 June 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

Clan Gauss 12 tons.

IS Gauss 15 tons.

Damage, health, explode chance are exactly the same, which needs to be addressed.

No, it doesn't. People need to stop gripping on this. If the Clan Guass wieghed 15 tons, you'd never see it used. EVER. Because Clan mechs almost universally have oversized engines, they don't have anywhere the weight to play with as IS mechs. If CG and ISG were equall, CG would never be used. Those extra three tons would make the weapon blarg on anything not a Dire or Warhawk.

Nothing needs to be addressed in this department.

[El Bandito]

Lord0fHats, on 12 June 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

No, it doesn't. People need to stop gripping on this. If the Clan Guass wieghed 15 tons, you'd never see it used. EVER. Because Clan mechs almost universally have oversized engines, they don't have anywhere the weight to play with as IS mechs. If CG and ISG were equall, CG would never be used. Those extra three tons would make the weapon blarg on anything not a Dire or Warhawk.

Nothing needs to be addressed in this department.

No one said anything about making Clan Gauss 15 tons. I only suggested for the IS Gauss to receive some advantage for its extra tonnage, like the IS ACs and IS LRMs. Read the damn posts, people.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 June 2015 - 05:11 AM.

[Lord0fHats]

El Bandito, on 12 June 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:

No one said anything about making Clan Gauss 15 tons, are you blind? I only suggested for the IS Gauss to receive some advantage for its extra tonnage, like the IS ACs and IS LRMs.

Are you blind? I'm pointing out the saved tonnage is balance irrelevant. It's effectively there only so that the weapon is actually usable in builds.

Considering the multitude of real balance problems, going on and on about the Clan Gauss is a waste of time. How about we fix LRMs (on both sides), completely rebalance lasers, autocanons, and Clan Streaks? You know. Real problems

Edited by Lord0fHats, 12 June 2015 - 05:13 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Lord0fHats, on 12 June 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

Are you blind? I'm pointing out the saved tonnage is balance irrelevant. It's effectively there only so that the weapon is actually usable in builds.

Are you clueless? You're pointing out that clan mechs should have super-sized XL engines with no penalties, weapons that weigh less to compensate, and still fight IS 12v12. I was part of the 8-10vs12 camp, but since they went for 12v12 there is no way you can justify such a massive advantage.

[Nightshade24]

Quote

Couldron born:

Prime:
Stock

A:
Replace Medium pulse for small pulse
Repalce Flamer with small pulse
remove 0.5 armour for 1 more HS

(3 x ER medium laser, 2 x small pulse laser, 2 x ER large laser, 2 x Machine gun, 1 x UAC 20 )

B:
Replace medium pulses for er mediums.
2 more tons heatsinks

(2 x ER medium lasers, 2 x Large pulse lasers, 2 x ER PPC, 1 x TAG, 1 x BAP)
alt: 2 x Small pulse lasers

C: ???

1) replace 2 SRM 6 with 2 x LRM 5 (opens 1 ton)
2 x UAC 2 (4T ammo), 2 x LRM 5, 2 x LRM 15 (7)

2) remove 1 SRM 6 ammo for UAC ammo

3) remove all Missile for 4 x SSRM 6 (removes 2Tons)
2 x UAC 2 (4-5T ammo), 4 x SSRM 6 (3-4)

My rough WIP plans for the couldron born.

Will probably mix omnipods later on. I just like using builds simular to stock first before branching out.

I already have a few builds in mind that uses the ST ballistic hardpoint or so...

[Lord0fHats]

LordBraxton, on 12 June 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

Are you clueless? You're pointing out that clan mechs should have super-sized XL engines with no penalties,

There is a massive glaring penalty; their super-sized XL engines taking up a lot of tonnage. While Clan mechs benefit from their super speed in game, you'd definitely have to be clueless not to realize that Clan engines are not optimum on most of the Clan mechs. We can't downgrade, and have to permanently work around all the weight they take up (alongside other locked pieces). This lone fact alongside other issues (ferro instead of endo) helps screw more than a few Clan mechs out of usability.

There is a good reason for Clan gear to be somewhat lighter than IS gear. A lot less wiggle (boarding on none) room for weapon tonnage, compounded on top of very high weapon heat that forces good chunks of that limited weight go into heat sinks to mitigate high Clan heat.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 12 June 2015 - 05:32 AM.

[Templar Dane]

LordBraxton, on 12 June 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

I love comments like this that show how little some people understand video games. -So because FASA used horrible power creep to sell minis, it's a good idea to use horrible power creep to sell digital mechs? That's some sound logic. It ruined BT and it's ruining this game as well. -The EJ is nova sized, it is not large in any way for a 65 tonner, it is not even wide for a 65 tonner, it just looks wide because it is now the shortest heavy in the game by a large margin. -It has an excellent starting engine and I probably wouldn't change it even If I had the choice.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battle_Value

Timber Wolf BV (2.0) 2,737
King Crab BV (2.0) 1,906
Nova BV (2.0) 2,663
Atlas BV (2.0) 1,897

Edited by lordtzar, 12 June 2015 - 05:37 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Lord0fHats, on 12 June 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

There is a massive glaring penalty; their super-sized XL engines taking up a lot of tonnage. While Clan mechs benefit from their super speed in game, you'd definitely have to be clueless not to realize that Clan engines are not optimum on most of the Clan mechs. We can't downgrade, and have to permanently work around all the weight they take up (alongside other locked pieces). This lone fact alongside other issues (ferro instead of endo) helps screw more than a few Clan mechs out of usability.

I totally agree when it comes to the summoner and endo steel for example, but I do not see the engine sizes as a disadvantage in any way. Clan XLs are so incredibly powerful, that the lack of option to change them is meaningless compared to fact that they tank like a standard engine with all of the weight saving of an XL. So compare your EJ to IS mechs trying to mount a STD325... yeah...

lordtzar, on 12 June 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battle_Value

I'd love a battle value system, we pushed for this in closed beta and PGI ignored us as usual. PGI will never add this due to matchmaking concerns, so what's your point?

Edited by LordBraxton, 12 June 2015 - 05:33 AM.

[Lord0fHats]

LordBraxton, on 12 June 2015 - 05:32 AM, said:

I totally agree when it comes to the summoner and endo steel for example, but I do not see the engine sizes as a disadvantage in any way.

I'm not really calling it a disadvantage so much as trying to get people to understand that balance is about a lot more than just saving 3 tons on a gauss rifle when Clan mechs pretty much universally suffer from being completely unable to optimize weight (Honestly, only the Timber and the Crow can, and we all know how insanely powerful those two turned out to be >.>).

[Templar Dane]

LordBraxton, on 12 June 2015 - 05:32 AM, said:

I'd love a battle value system, we pushed for this in closed beta and PGI ignored us as usual. PGI will never add this due to matchmaking concerns, so what's your point?

You said it ruined TT, I pointed out how clan mechs had inflated BVs and it wasn't a clear-cut case of power creep. An individual clan mech versus an individual IS mech sure the clan mech would win more often than not......but the IS players had more mechs/support.

[Widowmaker1981]

El Bandito, on 12 June 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

Which means nothing when it comes to weapon to weapon balance. Otherwise, PGI would have left Clan ACs and LRMs with FLD, since the IS has plenty of AC and LRM quirks. Instead, PGI had intentionally given them stagger-fire to account for their lighter weight and lesser slot. Similar balancing must happen to the Gauss. More HP or less explode chance for IS Gauss is as good start as any.


Quirks must be balanced on the account of the weapons, not the other way around. One is core game mechanic, the other is just a band-aid.

Do you accept that the completely open customisation of IS mechs is a very large advantage that must be balanced out in some way if clans are to have locked up customisation?

Legomech omnipod system is NOT anything close to balancing that out, because some IS variants have perfectly good hardpoint selections, all that really does is make it so every variant of a Clan mech is equally useful, unlike IS where some are junk and some are great. In game though, you can just not drive the junk variants so...

[El Bandito]

Widowmaker1981, on 12 June 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

Do you accept that the completely open customisation of IS mechs is a very large advantage that must be balanced out in some way if clans are to have locked up customisation?

Legomech omnipod system is NOT anything close to balancing that out, because some IS variants have perfectly good hardpoint selections, all that really does is make it so every variant of a Clan mech is equally useful, unlike IS where some are junk and some are great. In game though, you can just not drive the junk variants so...

I would gladly debate with you about the pros and cons of customizable engines vs, swappable omni-pods, but that will derail this thread. I wish to keep this balancing issue on weapon-to-weapon basis.

You are welcome to make a different thread if you wanna talk about other things.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 June 2015 - 05:57 AM.