153 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

On that thread, El Bandito just brought up this Clan vs. IS Gauss Rifle issue again which I think is valid to address. One solution, which I propose, to the three tons of weight difference balance problem is to remove the charging mechanism from IS Gauss Rifle but increase its Cooldown to maybe six seconds. This will fit with the theme that Clan weapons are lighter, more damaging, can reach farther but harder to use. I was always a supporter of the charging mechanism but I think this change could be worth it to promote balance and diversity.

BTW, I just made up the 6s CD number so it obviously needs some more adjusting. Please tell us your idea if you have any in your mind. Gauss quirked 'Mechs like Grid Iron may or may not need adjustment themselves.

This proposed solution can also benefit several 'Mechs that carry a single Gauss in a mixed loadout like the Highlander, Atlas, or Victor, for example. The ability to be able to immediately fire the Gauss will enhance their performance on assaults.

What IS 'Mech which could potentially become overpowered because of this? Tell us what you think!

[Lord0fHats]

The charge mechanism was put in place because Gauss is 15 point damage (with great range/falloff) and no heat. Even boosting the weapons CD won't mitigate that fact. Honestly imo the charge mechanism doesn't mitigate that fact as is, but making it a simple dumb fire weapon would be much worse balance wise. Both sides its the strongest ballistic weapon in game, straight up.

Beyond that, as I stated in the other thread, the 3 tons of saved weight is balance irrelevant. Clan mechs have over sized engines, and without that saved weight, Clan Gauss rifles would be too heavy to ever be usable on any mech not a Warhawk or Direwolf. Not without significant changes to other clan weapons anyway (those saved 3 tons usually just go into 3 more DHS to mitigate the very high heat from CERMLs).

Really, a larger issue for the IS as I see it is that there aren't many good Gauss platforms outside the Grid Iron. Most IS mechs work better boating AC5s (or UAC5s) because of all the AC5 quirks that are running around.

[Kiiyor]

Lord0fHats, on 12 June 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

The charge mechanism was put in place because Gauss is 15 point damage (with great range/falloff) and no heat. Even boosting the weapons CD won't mitigate that fact. Honestly imo the charge mechanism doesn't mitigate that fact as is, but making it a simple dumb fire weapon would be much worse balance wise. Both sides its the strongest ballistic weapon in game, straight up.

Beyond that, as I stated in the other thread, the 3 tons of saved weight is balance irrelevant. Clan mechs have over sized engines, and without that saved weight, Clan Gauss rifles would be too heavy to ever be usable on any mech not a Warhawk or Direwolf. Not without significant changes to other clan weapons anyway (those saved 3 tons usually just go into 3 more DHS to mitigate the very high heat from CERMLs).

Really, a larger issue for the IS as I see it is that there aren't many good Gauss platforms outside the Grid Iron. Most IS mechs work better boating AC5s (or UAC5s) because of all the AC5 quirks that are running around.

I thought it was part of combating the huge pinpoint combo of Gauss+PPC's (even though any marco can get around that).

I vote to have it removed, but mostly because it would make my Dual Gauss Jag insane.

[LordBraxton]

I hate quirks because people use them to justify a weapon being ****. IS gauss rifle needs a buff, but mechs like the grid iron complicate that. IS lasers need a buff, but we have mechs with quirks so intense that they are already buffed to near-clan level (albeit still for more tonnage) Like most of PGI's bandaid fixes, quirks created problems we might never recover from, and Russ and co. are too arrogant to admit mistakes, ever...

[Hit the Deck]

Lord0fHats, on 12 June 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

...
Beyond that, as I stated in the other thread, the 3 tons of saved weight is balance irrelevant. Clan mechs have over sized engines, and without that saved weight, Clan Gauss rifles would be too heavy to ever be usable on any mech not a Warhawk or Direwolf. Not without significant changes to other clan weapons anyway (those saved 3 tons usually just go into 3 more DHS to mitigate the very high heat from CERMLs).
....

The designers made Clan to be superior (fast and bring great firepower). That they run fast alone is already an advantage. On the IS side, the disadvantage of the ability to run fast is that you can't bring a lot of firepower. These Clan 'Mechs don't have this. A somewhat slower Clan 'Mech like the Night Gyr without an "oversized engine" (300XL) carry a redonkulous 40.6 tons of pod space! Imagine what you can fit inside and its firepower for a 75t 'Mech!

Grisbane, on 12 June 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

anything that could mount it. why would anyone bother with an AC 20 when for 1 ton more they can have a weapon that requires almost no lead time, doesn't care about range and causes 0 heat? it pairs perfectly with lasers, works well with ppc's.. the Clan whine would be huge over the massive influx of cataphracts, jeagers, and king crabs infesting CW and pubs if this would come true

Because AC/20's DPS of 5 points would be twice the GR's of 15/6 = 2.5 points. This number obviously need to be adjusted further.

[Lord0fHats]

Quirks are good for balance. They're good because prior to quirks, the only way PGI had to balance mechs and weapon load outs was to nerf the weapons, which results in complete balance chaos.

Example (Clan Side because it's the side I know);

Laser vomit Timbers and Stormcrows are running rampant. They're both too strong. They dominate the meta. They need nerfs;

Option One; Nerf Clan lasers, only that's a terrible idea because it will hurt every clan mech including the ones that suck and the Timber and Stormcrow will still be the best clan mechs. < Horrible option.

Option Two; Quirk the Timber and Stormcrow negatively to bring down their power level, while leaving the weapons be so as not to hurt the other Clan mechs. < Good option.

PGI tried balancing the game by tweaking the weapons for years and it didn't work even remotely. Nerfing a weapon because some mech was running rampant with it invariably hurt every other mech that used it. Because of quirks, PGI can actually balance build by build and mech by mech, and having played the game for three years the balance is honestly in a better place now than it has ever been. Even before the Crow and Timber nerfs the balance was better than previously.

There is nothing wrong with the IS Gauss rifle, except that there aren't many IS mechs that run it well. That has nothing to do with it weighing 15 tons, but everything to do with general hard point placements across IS mechs and the quirks many of them have. Solution is not to buff the IS Gauss rifle but to provide the IS with a platform that can run it.

[Xarian]

Gauss rifles do not need a buff. They have a low cooldown, are near pinpoint, front-loaded, don't reveal your position, and generate no heat. The only thing holding them back is that charge mechanism, which is purely there to keep Gauss from being a twitch weapon, and doesn't do that great of a job - but still better than nothing.

[Lord0fHats]

Hit the Deck, on 12 June 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

A somewhat slower Clan 'Mech like the Night Gyr without an "oversized engine" (300XL) carry a redonkulous 40.6 tons of pod space! Imagine what you can fit inside and its firepower for a 75t 'Mech!

300XL = 15.5
4 Lock Jump Jets = 6
Assume Armor = 27 (.46 tons unused armor)
Ferro + Endo for saving =

48.5 Tons of locked equipment and only 26.5 tons actually usable for weapons (note that this is actually less than the Timber Wolf, since it can choose not to take JJ and I am assuming here that the Night Gyr would have locked JJ across all variants because that seems to be a running theme of late). And this is without calculating in any heatsinks because I'm too lazy to actually look up if the Night Gyr has any locked sinks

Edited by Lord0fHats, 12 June 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[Lugh]

The charge mechanic is actually rather stupid. And once you get used to it, becomes a way to SAVE ammo.

If you remove it, you must remove it for ALL gauss rifles.

IS mechs in this game are already superior to Omnimechs in the ability to customize on the fly. This was NOT the case in any other BT game ever.

[Monkey Lover]

If they remove.the charge you would see a lot more alpha spam. At least now, a lot of people don't use the weapon because it takes a little more skill.

I would like to see an adjustable charge holding time. The few seconds to release are a little too short.

[mailin]

The OP may not remember when there were all kinds of gauss toting jump snipers. The charge time was implemented to dramatically reduce that. I'm really glad PGI put that into the game. Go back? No thanks.

[Hit the Deck]

Grisbane, on 12 June 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

true, but the ac 20 generates a lot of heat, the round is slow and is limited to short range. the guass has none of that. the dps deficiency could be made up by that extra laser you can mount with less sinks. and even if the mech is in crit heat the gauss can still fire without fear of shut down.

The numbers (heat and cooldown) obviously can be adjusted if needed. My point is, you bring AC/20 for close range brawls because it hits hard, relatively frequent, and has good DPS. You bring Gauss because it's an awesome weapon (must be so because it's one of those desirable weapons in the source material) but also mainly because you want to trade fire with the enemies at range.

[Pariah Devalis]

No charge gauss rifles? We were there before. You know what wasn't? AC20s.

Gauss needs to be a little bit clumsy to use at closer range or else there is practically zero use for AC20s and definitely no need for AC10s. Clan vs IS aside, this is simple balancing that went into play before the Clans existed for a very good reason. Learn from the past. Do not repeat mistakes.

Further, the fallacious claim that Gauss being 3 tons lighter for Clans is some sort of advantage is an outright lie and needs to be buried. That weight savings gets you nothing. How many of the current (and upcoming) lineup of Clan heavy mechs can take two gauss rifles? The TW (but doing so means you have insufficient ammo and poorly placed hardpoints), and the Ebon Jaguar (but doing so means you have no backup weapons unless you go with a risky asym build, and even then barely have the backup guns). How many IS heavy mechs can do it? The Cataphract (bad placement but plenty of ammo and backup guns), the Catapult (excellent placement and backup guns), and the Jagermech (extremely good placement and backup guns).

I'm sorry for the unconstructive comment, but whine more, will you?

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 June 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[Templar Dane]

[Hit the Deck]

Lord0fHats, on 12 June 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

300XL = 15.5
4 Lock Jump Jets = 6
Assume Armor = 27 (.46 tons unused armor)
Ferro + Endo for saving =

48.5 Tons of locked equipment and only 26.5 tons actually usable for weapons (note that this is actually less than the Timber Wolf, since it can choose not to take JJ and I am assuming here that the Night Gyr would have locked JJ across all variants because that seems to be a running theme of late). And this is without calculating in any heatsinks because I'm too lazy to actually look up if the Night Gyr has any locked sinks

I forgot about the 4 fixed JJs! According to my calculation it should then have around 40.5-(4x1) = 36.5 tons. Still a g*dd**n lot for a 75 tons Clan mech!

mailin, on 12 June 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

The OP may not remember when there were all kinds of gauss toting jump snipers. The charge time was implemented to dramatically reduce that. I'm really glad PGI put that into the game. Go back? No thanks.

Unfortunately I wasn't there so I can only imagine. The current difference between Gauss and (ER)PPC speed makes hitting the same spot on a moving object at a distance somewhat difficult. And the difference between GR's and (ER)PPC's CD after this proposed adjustment forces those GR+PPC players to shoot every time GR is finished cooling down when they want to shoot both only at the same time which means decreasing their DPS further.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 12 June 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Lord0fHats]

Hit the Deck, on 12 June 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

I forgot about the 4 fixed JJs! According to my calculation it should then have around 40.5-(4x1) = 36.5 tons. Still a g*dd**n lot for a 75 tons Clan mech!

Oh it is, and I am just assuming the JJs will be fixed and there will be no variants without them (also, heavy JJs are 1.5 tons, so it would be 32.5 which is still quite a bit).

[process]

The gauss rifle is probably the only weapon in the game that doesn't need any Clan/IS rebalancing. The weight difference is necessary to make stock builds work, and as previously mentioned, doesn't actually benefit most Clan mechs due to lack of hardpoints or weight.

Edited by process, 12 June 2015 - 06:18 AM.

[nehebkau]

3 extra tons of ammo, in CW is very relevant.

[Lord0fHats]

The weight savings is never put into ammo...

It always goes into more heat sinks (because ERMLs run super hot). Really what we're talking about is Gauss Timbers running Gauss + 4 ERML rather than Gauss + 5 ERMLs. Granted... Most have already willingly gone down to 4 ERMLs to avoid the extra nerfage and shift some weight into another JJ. << Further evidence that quirk balancing works better btw

Edited by Lord0fHats, 12 June 2015 - 06:24 AM.

[Heart of Storm]

As someone who was around in the old days of poptarting gauss snipers i can assure you that the charge time mechanic is just fine as it is.

An absence of gauss-boating clan mechs tells me that the Clan gauss rifle is probably fine as it is as well.