58 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

B8hunter, on 17 June 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Is it safe to say give up on cw? I think so.

50%+ of my faction has given up. At least for now, maybe in a year when they add something else. I look forward to 4v4 because i can at least find 3 other people willing to play cw.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

You can't have a game mechanic players won't try to exploit...
New solutions to old problems created new problems, but overall it seems to be a bit better now
Dropzones were moved away from objectives - you won't get dropships landing on your head while going for objectives
Apparently spawncamping is more difficult now, but still possible. Another + from me, I didn't like the idea of removing SC totally. It is a tactic after all. It was just too forced, too "the only sensible and most effective tactic" before on some maps: "spawncamp the x zone or try to actually push forward to objectives just to be surrounded by enemies dropping around you and dropships landing on your teammates".

People are trying out exploiting new drop zones as defenders. Time will tell if this fad will fade or not. Maybe the many disadvantages of 'staying stationary en masse in an obvious place for a long time, while allowing enemies to poke you at their leisure and their own pace" wil prove "spawnhumping" useless and people will forget about it. Maybe not and something will have to be done about it.

So far, everybody just wants to try it out. Let's give them some time.

[SeventhSL]

I do a lot of Pug CW so getting pushed back to spawn happens a fair bit.

What is not happening now is instant death on drop. I'm not seeing pre-made teams push a spawn point, camp it, instant kill an entire lance on drop and then move to the next spawn point to repeat the process. Yes you get bottled in and focused down if you step out but for Pugs that are learning team work they at least get the chance to regroup and try.

The changes are a huge step in making CW more enjoyable for Pugs and lessening the pain of their learning curb.

[Karl Marlow]

Monkey Lover, on 17 June 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

50%+ of my faction has given up. At least for now, maybe in a year when they add something else. I look forward to 4v4 because i can at least find 3 other people willing to play cw.

yup. I tried putting together a CW event a couple weeks ago. We couldn't get a 12 man together for a single drop during prime time Friday night.

I'm pretty close to just being done with MWO all together. Pub drops are boring. 4 v 4 has limited appeal. Every time I see changes to CW it gets worse.

[Dracol]

SeventhSL, on 17 June 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

I do a lot of Pug CW so getting pushed back to spawn happens a fair bit.

What is not happening now is instant death on drop. I'm not seeing pre-made teams push a spawn point, camp it, instant kill an entire lance on drop and then move to the next spawn point to repeat the process. Yes you get bottled in and focused down if you step out but for Pugs that are learning team work they at least get the chance to regroup and try.

The changes are a huge step in making CW more enjoyable for Pugs and lessening the pain of their learning curb.

^ this is very well said.

[Pat Kell]

The one match that we actually ventured into their spawn area last night was hilarious. It was on Sulphor and we just used the giant hill to hide from the drop ships and when they left, we poked in, killed a few and hid again. Near the end, 5 of us decided to risk it, 2 of us got 100% of the attention from the drop ships and the other 2 never even got shot. It did slow the games down some as I expected but it has made no difference in who wins and who loses.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

SeventhSL, on 17 June 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

I do a lot of Pug CW so getting pushed back to spawn happens a fair bit.
What is not happening now is instant death on drop. I'm not seeing pre-made teams push a spawn point, camp it, instant kill an entire lance on drop and then move to the next spawn point to repeat the process. Yes you get bottled in and focused down if you step out but for Pugs that are learning team work they at least get the chance to regroup and try.
The changes are a huge step in making CW more enjoyable for Pugs and lessening the pain of their learning curb.

Pat Kell, on 17 June 2015 - 10:13 PM, said:

It did slow the games down some as I expected but it has made no difference in who wins and who loses.

Actually working as intended? Oh my :]

I expect spawn hiding will fade once everybody tries it out enough times to realise it gives no actual advantage, just prevents instant spawncamping. You will win/loose as you would win/loose without standing in one spot like an idiot.

[Pat Kell]

after playing some more tonight with a full 12 man, I would say that no, it's not working as intended. We are still capable of sitting in their spawns....may have to buff the dropships more. Give these guys a chance...


I am being serious. We were able to sit in the spawn for 1 full rotation of dropships and kill enemies as the dropped. Granted, the next wave wiped us all out but if you want to end the match a little quicker, ball up and make sure everyone is in range of the drop ships, then just torso twist a bit and you can wipe a whole wave....better buff them more because the whining won't stop until everyone is given a fair and equal chance to shoot their little guns...whether they earned it or not.

Edited by Pat Kell, 18 June 2015 - 01:34 AM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 17 June 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

You can't have a game mechanic players won't try to exploit...
New solutions to old problems created new problems, but overall it seems to be a bit better now
Dropzones were moved away from objectives - you won't get dropships landing on your head while going for objectives
Apparently spawncamping is more difficult now, but still possible. Another + from me, I didn't like the idea of removing SC totally. It is a tactic after all. It was just too forced, too "the only sensible and most effective tactic" before on some maps: "spawncamp the x zone or try to actually push forward to objectives just to be surrounded by enemies dropping around you and dropships landing on your teammates".

People are trying out exploiting new drop zones as defenders. Time will tell if this fad will fade or not. Maybe the many disadvantages of 'staying stationary en masse in an obvious place for a long time, while allowing enemies to poke you at their leisure and their own pace" wil prove "spawnhumping" useless and people will forget about it. Maybe not and something will have to be done about it.

So far, everybody just wants to try it out. Let's give them some time.

Anything that favours the majority in this game ( i.e. unskilled idiot pugs running LRM XL Altlases ) will NEVER be fixed. Only tweeked to favour the group mentioned.

[Vellron2005]

As I stated before the latest CW changes, here's what is a viable tactic now..

Imagine this scenario.. You are 3 waves in, and the last wave of enemies is about to drop. You are defending... so.. they come in..

You have 5-6 mechs that are severely damaged, disarmed, or out of ammo... a few seconds before the invading force comes close, you eject one by one mech in a coordinated fashion.. then deal considerable damage when you drop again via a 12 LL dropship that hits only the central torso..

Result?

The dropship's not only cleared your spawn site, but also possibly cored several attacking mechs, while you sit pretty in that brand new shiny final heavy or assault you've been saving..

So.. yeah... reverse spawn camping..

Edited by Vellron2005, 18 June 2015 - 02:42 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Vellron pls.
The dropships now land away from objectives.
They all land in one place (almost).
This place is in a corner of the map, not on the way to anything.
There is a delay between death and dropship landing.
There is a notification if somebody kills his mech (Jim killed Jim)

Sorry man, there is no possibility of actually using that "reverse spawn camping" you've come up with. Heck, it was more plausible when dropzones were scattered around and attackers HAD to get close to them to get to the objectives/defenders' positions. Not that it helped a lot, but it was possible to carry out.

On top of that, some players already stated that they managed to spawncamp the defenders, by going en masse to the dropzone or skillfully trading fire and hiding before the dropships can come.

Pat Kell -> to spawncamp under new conditions, you had to wipe out 12 mechs with your armors barely scratched. In case of such imbalance, the dropships would have to be able to pull off the damage equal to an organised 12-man. That would be way over the top.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 18 June 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[Crockdaddy]

Pat Kell, on 18 June 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

after playing some more tonight with a full 12 man, I would say that no, it's not working as intended. We are still capable of sitting in their spawns....may have to buff the dropships more. Give these guys a chance...


I am being serious. We were able to sit in the spawn for 1 full rotation of dropships and kill enemies as the dropped. Granted, the next wave wiped us all out but if you want to end the match a little quicker, ball up and make sure everyone is in range of the drop ships, then just torso twist a bit and you can wipe a whole wave....better buff them more because the whining won't stop until everyone is given a fair and equal chance to shoot their little guns...whether they earned it or not.

After playing more this is basically what we have found out as well. In fact it is almost more convenient that quite a few defending groups let us get setup so easily. Once we start poking and eating into them we eventually do a mass push kill all mechs and then eat a few more out of the dropship. It takes a bit longer and the ever increasing waves of dropships / fresh mechs do kill us but it hasn't materially changed the outcome ... caveat being that teams which on defense (while we counter attack) decide to stay in their drop zone. The first time I played I hadn't realized we could climb the mountain in front of their spawn.

Edited by Crockdaddy, 18 June 2015 - 06:25 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Super Dropships wasn't the correct fix. Especially not ones that solely target your CT: that's wildly unfair to Light pilots, especially since dropships never miss and ignore things like ECM that would normally keep your mech partially safe.

The only way this is a good idea is if you could shoot those dropships down. Or come up with better mechanics and gamemodes. :\

[DI3T3R]

If the problem is spawn-camping in counter-attack, why not change counter-attack???????

Right now, either side needs one more kill to win.

What if we turn this into
* Attackers need 6 more kills than the Defenders AND destroy the cannon.
* Defenders need 6 more kills than the Attackers.
* If neither side fullfills a victory-condition, that means the match was very close: It counts as a draw and the territory is assigned a random owner with a 50:50 chance for going to Attackers or Defenders.

[Varvar86]

This impossible to fix until CW maps “sausages” design will be changed. Until CW has limited exits directions out of spawns - problem will stay. No matter what they will try to do – until there is 2, 4, paths that are easy to block and camp – camping will live, deal with it.

This need to be rebuilt from the core! Not adding shelters, replacing gens or adding/deleting rocks… i mean, come on, if you operating within the territory 600m radius, how THAT replacing/adding objects can help? It won’t! You still have 2-3 “bottle necks” of death - that you can easily block and shoot along these corridors. Neither drop ships or cliffs will help, until defenders will only 1 direction to exit. All chages will only push camping flag from attackers to defenders, and back –endless times. That’s pathetic tries to save already dead patient.

Proposition:

Delete these maps. No joking. Just admit that they are failed - and delete em all. Redesign it from the ground. Based on the circle form - not the line. Round alike map, with base placed near center.
Base is fully locked at the start – secured by automatic turrets shooting on sight. Nobody can get in and get out.
1-st stage - conquest 6+ points around the map to destroy power lines connecting base with other regions.
Map has 16 drop zones around the map NOT placed inside closed clusters. Attackers before round start, voting for 3 drop points they wish to drop. After vote finished, computer randomly adds other 5 drops to chosen 3 (nearest ones) and mark em as blocked. So defenders will see 8 possible drop points (only 3 of them are real) and predict general attack direction. Defenders has other 8 drop points around map to choose from. Defenders vote for their drop points trying to guess where attackers will drop. (Thats will bring variaty to game, no predicted attak lines like existing attak - north/defend - south). Round starts.
Attackers capturing points and destroying power lines. Defenders tries to stop them.
Main – if there is more than 3 enemy mechs within 600m near ANY drop zone - drop zone is unacceptable and can’t be used. Map is big enough to place drops wide, so they can’t be blocked all at same, and can’t be camped either. If person dies he can choose to drop single or to wait fastest 3 persons to drop in 4 persons from one drop ship. Commander assigns drop points choosing from all avaible that are not blocked.
2-stage.
If attackers succeed (usually they are, that’s short conquest part) base opens. Ideal base must be round - with lots of entrances 6 ore more. Drop zones moved closer to the center with the same rules of drop. Cannon has loooooooots of health – so defenders has plenty of time to roll inn from different directions trying to push out attackers from the base.
no "bottle necks" or so many of then that they are impossible to block em all even with 1 mech on each = camping gone.
Subject to discussion anyway.

Edited by Varvar86, 18 June 2015 - 07:24 AM.

[Armando]

What was the goal of pushing the spawns back and making the drop ships more powerful?

If the goal was making drop ship camping harder....they were successful IMHO.

Before on maps like SR we could camp the far right wall and kill base defenders before they hit the ground until the defenders have 4 players completely dead without threat. Those days are GONE.
________________________________________________________________________

What is the result of pushing the spawns back and making the drop ships more powerful?

Did they over buff and make hiding in spawn a viable tactic....my experience is NO.

To be fair I will not drop in a CW match with less than 7 teammates in TS3 with me and most games I am with 11 other players. In THAT experience we still win the matches but take a LOT more damage / deaths in the process.

________________________________________________________________________

TL:DR - Pilots can now get dropped off without getting killed before they hit the ground (at least not without a pilot from the other team getting killed by the drop ships in the process). Trying to farm players hiding @ drop point is 'difficult' by possible.

Working as intended? I have no idea!

Edited by Armando, 18 June 2015 - 08:10 AM.

[QueenBlade]

Last night on the new CW map, 228 played on Lohan near the NA cease fire. The last player was a disconnect, and we wanted to test out the new drop ships. I was in a Jenner, ran in next to the disconnected mech. Killed it. Sat and waited.

Drop ship came, fired at me once, 1 laser, turned my head armor to orange. I have 13 head armor.
Another ship came, and again only fired at me once, 1 laser, turned head armor to red.
Last ship came, did not fire on me.

Looks like drop ships aren't working as intended as I expected to be removed from my mech from the first drop ship, and three ships didn't kill me.

[Triordinant]

Monkey Lover, on 17 June 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

50%+ of my faction has given up. At least for now, maybe in a year when they add something else.

A year from now that "something else" will be PvE. At that point, MWO will finally reach the level of all the past Mechwarrior games (all of which had PvE).

[Wild_Alaskan]

Pat Kell, on 18 June 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

after playing some more tonight with a full 12 man, I would say that no, it's not working as intended. We are still capable of sitting in their spawns....may have to buff the dropships more. Give these guys a chance...


I am being serious. We were able to sit in the spawn for 1 full rotation of dropships and kill enemies as the dropped. Granted, the next wave wiped us all out but if you want to end the match a little quicker, ball up and make sure everyone is in range of the drop ships, then just torso twist a bit and you can wipe a whole wave....better buff them more because the whining won't stop until everyone is given a fair and equal chance to shoot their little guns...whether they earned it or not.

Having been on the receiving end of the match mentioned here, I have to say it really sucks knowing that you're dropping into a situation where you know you're bottled into a small area, and if you poke out you'll die because the enemy team has a firing line set up outside. I'd almost rather the enemy sit under the dropship and kill me before I hit the ground - at least that way it'd be over sooner.

[Wild_Alaskan]

Crockdaddy, on 18 June 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

The first time I played I hadn't realized we could climb the mountain in front of their spawn.

Read the unit forums, you silly.

QueenBlade, on 18 June 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Looks like drop ships aren't working as intended as I expected to be removed from my mech from the first drop ship, and three ships didn't kill me.

Having been spawncamped a number of times now (Mostly by KCom, thanks Pat!), I have to say that the dropships seem significantly worse now. I've seen some come in and not fire a single shot at enemies standing right below them.