42 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Well I started thinking about how the BK could trade with a laser vomit Timber Wolf and had some fun thoughts!

Lets say one of the BKs gets:

+15% Energy Range
+15% Medium Laser Range
-12.5% Energy Heat Generation (maybe, see heat comparison below)

Trying to get a similar range profile with the Timber given these quirks, lets pretend this is one of the 9 hardpoint BKs and it runs 6 MLs and 3 LLs and an XL 350 (~83ish kph after speed tweak? I can't remember). I believe with that loadout it can fit 19 DHS.

With modules and those range quirks, your medium lasers would have an optimum range of 378 m and your LLs would have an optimum range of 563 m, vs 445 m for the cER MLs and 660 for the cLPL, so you still have a slight range disadvantage but you have a slight duration advantage. I would actually be happy about that matchup, it would prove interesting and I don't think that it would be OP.

BK (XL 350) vs Timber (XL375)

57 dmg at 378 m vs 54 dmg at 445 m

45 (~39.5 with -12.5% energy heat generation) heat with 19 DHS vs 44 heat with 24 DHS

0.9-1.0s duration vs 1.21-1.24s duration (Editted to account for 8% duration increase)

no JJs vs 2 JJs

I don't know guys, I think if it gets that heat generation quirk as well it might be still not as good... therefore I move to vote that it gets those quirks that I proposed + a bit of durability and agility.

What do you guys think?

Oh and before anyone thinks "Geez why you gotta conform to the boring laser vomit meta, yo?", please remember that the BK only has energy hardpoints so variety is limited.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 30 July 2015 - 03:22 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I think that the TWs ability to adjust its loadout across any weapon type plus JJs, in addition to more maneuverability is going to be the (still) deciding factor.

Can you make a BK build that can compete with specific TW builds in specific situations in a strictly 1 on 1 environment? Probably.

Overall though a TW is going to be a more valuable asset to your drop deck, always has been and likely always will be.

The BK probably won't be terribad, that's going to depend on the hitboxes though. It'll be like a Grasshopper with no JJs in the end. I likely don't need to tell you where that fits in the overall scheme of things.

A big bucket of MEH.

[Wing 0]

will have to see what happens when the BK does come out. obviously it will have quirks like you mentioned since it is an Inner sphere mech but im thinking it might get similar to the grasshopper in quirks but knowing PGI, we will never know till after.

[627]

what makes you think you get away with an XL in that thing?

Oh the oriony...

[Gas Guzzler]

627, on 30 July 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

what makes you think you get away with an XL in that thing?

Oh the oriony...

If you can't then there is no hope and all you can do is 8-9 MPL it up.

[Hit the Deck]

I really hope that it gets good and interesting quirks because otherwise it will be pretty meh!

[Tristan Winter]

In a perfect world, Black Knight pilots would still want to combine PPCs and lasers instead of just laservomit. But I guess there won't be any of that.

Anyway, these discussions are kind of difficult when PGI is planning some huge, mysterious balance make-over, and we have no idea what it entails.

I would like some PPC quirks though. Let the Grasshopper be the laserboat.

[Gas Guzzler]

So I guess I can add another set of inquiries:

Will Clan players be upset that this new IS heavy has solid quirks like this vs the blank slate of quirks that the Ebon Jag got?
Would there be cries of power creep based on this quirk set?

[Elizander]

If BK arms are any good at shielding might be okay, otherwise it'll be hard-pressed to compete without any high mounted hardpoints that the TW can bring.

[Hit the Deck]

Tristan Winter, on 30 July 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

...
I would like some PPC quirks though. Let the Grasshopper be the laserboat.

Although I like this, quirking for PPC will make people boat PPC instead of putting lasers+PPC and thus makes it another TDR-9S....

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 July 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

So I guess I can add another set of inquiries:

Will Clan players be upset that this new IS heavy has solid quirks like this vs the blank slate of quirks that the Ebon Jag got?
Would there be cries of power creep based on this quirk set?

You've already got people whining that the Jenner IIC can bring 6SRM4s, ignoring the fact that the Huggin already does that.



You'll get whine everywhere, from anything. As long as it's not half burn time, triple recycle lasers, it should be fine.

[Gas Guzzler]

Tristan Winter, on 30 July 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

In a perfect world, Black Knight pilots would still want to combine PPCs and lasers instead of just laservomit. But I guess there won't be any of that.

Anyway, these discussions are kind of difficult when PGI is planning some huge, mysterious balance make-over, and we have no idea what it entails.

I would like some PPC quirks though. Let the Grasshopper be the laserboat.

The problem is PPCs don't mesh that well with lasers... I hope there is one PPC variant while the rest focus on lasers, PPCs can only do so much.

[DAYLEET]

627, on 30 July 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

what makes you think you get away with an XL in that thing?

Oh the oriony...

Don't know about the final model but right now the torso is a mix between a victor and a battlemaster, The head is prominent and people will surely shoot it for easy ct hit in all angle. it should field an xl quite fine but a 360max engine at 75ton, it will only be 85kph after tweak, i hope it will get torso twist quirks or good luck keeping that ct more than 20s into a fight.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAYLEET, on 30 July 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

Don't know about the final model but right now the torso is a mix between a victor and a battlemaster, The head is prominent and people will surely shoot it for easy ct hit in all angle. it should field an xl quite fine but a 360max engine at 75ton, it will only be 85kph after tweak, i hope it will get torso twist quirks or good luck keeping that ct more than 20s into a fight.

Definitely going to try to work the XL375 into that 4th variant

[Tristan Winter]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 July 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

The problem is PPCs don't mesh that well with lasers... I hope there is one PPC variant while the rest focus on lasers, PPCs can only do so much.

Hit the Deck, on 30 July 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

Although I like this, quirking for PPC will make people boat PPC instead of putting lasers+PPC and thus makes it another TDR-9S....

They kind of got it right with the TDR-9S. I don't know how it works in CW, maybe it was abandoned or maybe it's still being used almost like it was before. But in pug matches, most people are now running the TDR-9S with 2xERPPC and some medium lasers. The ERPPC quirks are too good to ignore, but the mech runs too hot to pack 3 of them.

It's not very well balanced, I think. I hardly see anyone do well with it. But I like the idea of combining hot but lethal PPCs (i.e. great projectile speed and range bonus) with relatively cool lasers (i.e. good heat reduction). Maybe it's too hard to balance this for MWO though, since we sadly don't have quirks attached to specific components. If the laser quirks are too good, the mechs end up as laserboats. If the PPC quirks are too good, they end up as PPC boats.

Still, I rarely see the TDR-9S as either of those.

[627]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 July 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

If you can't then there is no hope and all you can do is 8-9 MPL it up.

I'm one of the few wubhopper pilots... 8MPL are 16tons plus 2 jets are 18 tons - like 9MPL. You can run that with heatsinks and domething around an XL325 OR with a STD300-ish and... well a lot of heat.

The knight will reign or fall with its hit boxes.

I guess it will get awesome size and hitboxes until I buy that pack... I'm still mad because of the grasshopper size

[beerandasmoke]

Pound for pound the Timber is still the best mech in the game. Low slung hardpoints, no JJs, and vulnerability of an ISXL is what makes the Black Knight inferior. That is unless they massively quirk it for heat gen and cooldown. The only IS mech close to the timeline I could think of that would actually have a chance matching the Timber pound for pound would be the Penetrator.

[Gas Guzzler]

627, on 30 July 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'm one of the few wubhopper pilots... 8MPL are 16tons plus 2 jets are 18 tons - like 9MPL. You can run that with heatsinks and domething around an XL325 OR with a STD300-ish and... well a lot of heat.

The knight will reign or fall with its hit boxes.

I guess it will get awesome size and hitboxes until I buy that pack... I'm still mad because of the grasshopper size

Yeah, I like the ability to hit targets from far away so I don't have to put my mech at risk and get in close, leaving myself open to be overrun in a heartbeat. One of the reasons Clan laser vomit is so good is the engagement range.

I wish there was some way I could influence the devs with this thread..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 30 July 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[TheArisen]

Sounds good to me. While they're at it they should give us the Falconer.

[Gas Guzzler]

Given the overwhelming sense of approval I think PGI should go with this quirk philosophy on at least a couple of the BK variants