38 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Hiroshima, we will never forget man's great inhumanity to his fellow man.

Edited by Mystere, 05 August 2015 - 03:20 PM.

[Mystere]

Marack Drock, on 05 August 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

It was necessary.

Since when was it necessary -- not to mention morally acceptable -- to deliberately target the civilian population of an entire city?

Also, people are now questioning those "necessary" and "honor and such kept them from surrendering" parts.

Also note that my original post was deliberately timed to mark the tragedy.

Edited by Mystere, 05 August 2015 - 04:44 PM.

[Mystere]

Marack Drock, on 05 August 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Also I did notice you timed it. Although bringing it up on a video game forum seems to be a little like a grab for attention or something. We come to video games to have a good time. Not to be berated by morbid real life instances. Also you are still off by a day (happened on the sixth).

I did get the time right. 5th August 7:15PM Tuscola County, Michigan time, is 6th August 8:15AM Hiroshima time.

And why mention it on a gaming forum? My answer is: Why not? How else will people remember, other than be jarred into doing so when and where they least expect it?

Edited by Mystere, 05 August 2015 - 07:22 PM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

I'm just glad I haven't seen anyone say something like this in awhile.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 05 August 2015 - 07:20 PM.

[Mystere]

I Zeratul I, on 05 August 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

I'm just glad I haven't seen anyone say something like this in awhile.

Insensitive to Japanese culture?

<smh>

Edited by Mystere, 05 August 2015 - 07:31 PM.

[Mystere]

Marack Drock, on 05 August 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."

That's extremely callous, especially considering that we are talking about the deliberate slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians.

But ...

Marack Drock, on 05 August 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

It grieves me that it happened.

There is still hope for you.

[IraqiWalker]

I Zeratul I, on 05 August 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

I'm just glad I haven't seen anyone say something like this in awhile.

[jss78]

I don't mean to sound callous, but I don't understand why Hiroshima/Nagasaki are so often and melodramatically singled out. People died in WW2 by the tens of millions, and to me it's all the same whether you die in a nuclear blast vs. by being fire-bombed, blown apart by a grenade, or bayoneted in the gut. The end result is that you're dead.

It was what was known as total war, in that a civilians were consciously targeted to break the enemy's resolve to fight, and all major participants of WW2 subscribed to this doctrine. That summer 70 years ago the USA happened to obtain a better weapon for that task, and that's all there was to it IMO. The other participants would've done the same.

To me, the argument that it the atom bomb hastened the end of WW2 and thus spared lives is credible. Some people will argue to that that you can't counter evil with another evil, but to me that's anachronistic. It was a horrible time and millions of people were going to die anyway.

I'll just be glad that modern world powers don't harbour the sort of militarist/imperialist ambitions which precipitated the WW2. Most countries (with the notable exception of Russia) seem to have learned some lessons, at least for the time being.

[IraqiWalker]

jss78, on 05 August 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

I don't mean to sound callous, but I don't understand why Hiroshima/Nagasaki are so often and melodramatically singled out. People died in WW2 by the tens of millions, and to me it's all the same whether you die in a nuclear blast vs. by being fire-bombed, blown apart by a grenade, or bayoneted in the gut. The end result is that you're dead.

It was what was known as total war, in that a civilians were consciously targeted to break the enemy's resolve to fight, and all major participants of WW2 subscribed to this doctrine. That summer 70 years ago the USA happened to obtain a better weapon for that task, and that's all there was to it IMO. The other participants would've done the same.

To me, the argument that it the atom bomb hastened the end of WW2 and thus spared lives is credible. Some people will argue to that that you can't counter evil with another evil, but to me that's anachronistic. It was a horrible time and millions of people were going to die anyway.

I'll just be glad that modern world powers don't harbour the sort of militarist/imperialist ambitions which precipitated the WW2. Most countries (with the notable exception of Russia) seem to have learned some lessons, at least for the time being.

Most historians put the estimates of japanese civilian casualties from a US land invasion in the 20+million ballpark. So yes, the bombings sealed the deal for Japan, and ended WW2.

However, that does not deny their horrific impact, nor how terrible they were.

These were the only two cases where those weapons were deployed in combat, and people hope to never see them being used again. So the memory of Hiroshima, and Nagasaki is usually brought up, with the hope that future generations will always remember them, and consider them a monstrous act, that should never be repeated again.

[ShinVector]

jss78, on 05 August 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

I don't mean to sound callous, but I don't understand why Hiroshima/Nagasaki are so often and melodramatically singled out. People died in WW2 by the tens of millions, and to me it's all the same whether you die in a nuclear blast vs. by being fire-bombed, blown apart by a grenade, or bayoneted in the gut. The end result is that you're dead.

I think the main point being driven here...

"Please don't NUKE people again!"

Weapons of mass destruction is bad, no matter who you use it on.

[Lily from animove]

Marack Drock, on 05 August 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

Not justifying what happened in any way here just pointing out a fact:

It was necessary. Just as many would have died with or without the nukes. It had to happen to end the war otherwise we could still be at war with Japan. Their honor and such kept them from surrendering (that and brainwashing). So there was no way to humanely win the war. In fact there is no humane way to end a war.

The entire war was a display of man's inhumanity to his fellow men. Hopefully Hiroshima can stand as a testament to something more though. It marked a new era. One not controlled by {Godwin's Law} or allies. But one that is free. Japan's government and status as a nation changed after that. Much for the better. The World was taught a valuable lesson then. Imagine what would have happened if we had won the war without nukes. The USA may have gone into nuclear war with Russia.

I think we should not look on that event purely for the evil committed. No, one does when looking at the founding of their own nations. People of color were promised freedom in the USA if they fought. Most never received their freedom. We had a Civil War based on Slavery and State's Rights and such. But the lesson we take away is that we need to look at the good that came out of it.

We will never forget (nor do I think we should) what happened there. But maybe we can look at the good to come out of it rather than just the evil. There was good to come out of WWII. It wasn't all just murder and slaughter (although much of it was). There is good that shows up in everything if we look hard enough.

I in no way condone what happened then. But don't condemn those who did it and made the decision. Glad I didn't have to make the choice.

you wouldn't have to nuke 2 entire large cities for this.

I Zeratul I, on 05 August 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

I'm just glad I haven't seen anyone say something like this in awhile.

Also, wasn't nuking the reason for animes rising that much? I mean I think the entire anime thing started to explode a lot more because after WW II budget and stuff for movies was too low so they focused more on animes to make because it was cheaper and easier to do.

So kinda japans revenge for getting bombed

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 August 2015 - 01:13 AM.

[Hex Pallett]

Mystere, on 05 August 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Hiroshima, we will never forget man's great inhumanity to his fellow man.

How about invading basically the entire Asia, r**eing and pillaging wherever it went, chemical/biological warfare, plus sailing all the way to Pearl Harbor just to bomb the sh** out of it? How about those Asian civilians? How about those innocent US soldiers who were just having a regular day and suddenly got their sh** blown up?

If you're going all bleeding heart just because their civilians got nuked, you're f***king hopeless. Those two nukes were probably the greatest F*** YOU ever conducted by any military of any country in the history, and I approve it. Because they bloody well deserved it.

(EDIT: But regardless, that Gawker article is awful.)

Edited by Helmstif, 06 August 2015 - 05:20 AM.

[Iqfish]

I may be biased but these bombings where about as necessary as the bombings of Dresden.

Dresden might be even more unnecessary, since Germany was already defeated and Dresden did not stand any chance.

[Lily from animove]

Helmstif, on 06 August 2015 - 05:14 AM, said:

How about invading basically the entire Asia, r**eing and pillaging wherever it went, chemical/biological warfare, plus sailing all the way to Pearl Harbor just to bomb the sh** out of it? How about those Asian civilians? How about those innocent US soldiers who were just having a regular day and suddenly got their sh** blown up?

If you're going all bleeding heart just because their civilians got nuked, you're f***king hopeless. Those two nukes were probably the greatest F*** YOU ever conducted by any military of any country in the history, and I approve it. Because they bloody well deserved it.

(EDIT: But regardless, that Gawker article is awful.)

No soldier is innocent ever, because someone wanting to be a soldier does already kinda accept that violence will be a way to solve conflicts.

But anyways, the real reaosn why Japan gave up was Russia declaring war as well. Thats at least what most experts say.

[Hex Pallett]

Lily from animove, on 06 August 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

No soldier is innocent ever, because someone wanting to be a soldier does already kinda accept that violence will be a way to solve conflicts.

But anyways, the real reaosn why Japan gave up was Russia declaring war as well. Thats at least what most experts say.

And how about this? No civilian in the invader country is innocent either, because back then it takes the mobilization of an entire country's resource and manpower to fuel a war of that scale, and everyone who works in that country has chosen to fuel their war machine, to make their living out of someone else's dismay. They're not anymore, in fact they are far less, innocent that the soldiers who died in Pearl Harbor for nothing. As I said, they bloody well deserved it.

And no, it's not Russia who ended the war, it's because Japan's war economy could no longer keep up with the increasing demand. Russia's involvement may be the mark, but definitely not the cause. The nuke, however, is nothing more but an act of cold, hard vengeance from the US, and again, I approve it.

Edited by Helmstif, 06 August 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[Kalimaster]

I know you are trying to obtain some honor for those who fell on that terrible day, but I don't think this is the way to do it.

If I remember correctly, several civilians (non-military) died at Pearl Harbor on December 7th. Also if I remember correctly, that the opponents of the United States were working on their own nuke, with the intention of dropping it on civilian targets.

One wrong does not make a right, and neither two.

There are other ways to bring honor to Hiroshima and those who perished that day.

[Kenyon Burguess]

my grandfather was a paratrooper with the 13th blackcats who had dropped into france and was stationed around paris when not on missions. towards the end of the European campaign when everyone was finally starting to believe Germany was going to surrender, my grandfather was handed documents on how to survive island fighting and the Japanese language. those bombs prevented him from having to go there, and most likely saved our family. while I can understand the horror of those bombs and the continuous effort by the world never to see them used again, all I want to say to the creators is "THANK YOU", and to the pilots who dropped it "hey man, nice shot"

[Lily from animove]

Helmstif, on 06 August 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

And how about this? No civilian in the invader country is innocent either, because back then it takes the mobilization of an entire country's resource and manpower to fuel a war of that scale,

Nonsense, because the peasant can not decide what the grains he harvests will be sued for, but the soldier knows what the intention of his job will be: fighing other humans.

@Marock, I have no idea what made you think that I said soldiers are not people, wtf are you even reading? I said they are not innocent. but innocence has nothign to do with being people or not. A soldier is no longer innocent, because he joined something of which it's intention is known and also known that this will not be a purpose of doing something peaceful. And as a soldier you have to follow orders which includes attacking and intentionally killing.


And the mindset that bombing civilians is ok in response because another "country" has also killed civilians is even more wrong. Because those civilians (especially when not a democracy) have not even made any of those decisions to kill these people (unless they are the soldiers or part of the governing people making those decisions)

anyone not having the intention to harm someone else is innocent, anyone else having a intention or is accepting to harm someone else or actively knowing to directly support it is not innocent anymore because your mindset already accepts to harm people intentionally.

you say people are equal? lol, no they aren't equal, actually everyone even twins are indivduals. And the civillion voting for a politican that sas he would fight a specific country is a lot less innocent and far away from equal than a peasant under a monarchy who cna not make any political decision.

your flaw is that you think people are equal, but they aren'T the "equality" slogan is the biggest lie of our modern world it is to make people that are underprivilegded feel better while the real life often and daily proofs that this equality does not even eist. it's a fairytail.

And your fuckign bombs won nothing, it was Russia who won the **** finally by making the japans see there is no way to fight the US and Russia.

Marack Drock, on 06 August 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

If given the chance to end the war by: Losing 21 million more lives to invade, or 300,000 to bomb some place what would you do?

It does not matter if they were civilian or not. People are people and deserve to be treated as such no matter what they do or don't do.

That logic so stupid. because you would now save 10 murderers when you can sacrifice a single peasant that has never doen anything wrong than getting robbed by the murders. But this way you can at leats end the conflict between these murderers and the peasant?

Marack Drock, on 06 August 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Your logic is either disgusting or flawed.

Well I give that back to you now, because it's what actually counts for you, and you are probably not even able to see it.

If I couldn't had a look now at your location I would now asked you if you are US citizen, because you have the typically stereotypical broken "equality" logic paired with some totally contradictions in the own logic you try to apply.

think about your logic, you said japans killed X million people, so it is fine to kill X japans, (especially to prevent further killings of chinese) what broken logic is this?
This is twice broken, when we even take "equality" into account you speak of.

Why? first you say people are people and they are all equal, This would mean a japan is equal to a Chinese.
Why is it suddenly ok to kill that one japan that never harmed a chinese as counter to other japanse killing some chinsese? That is your own broken logic countering itself her,e because it invalids your statement of people ad equality.
So just because that one japan had the bad luck of being born in the "wrong" country? Thats kinda somewhere between discriminating and racism.

Second the chinese killing japans will hardly care about that one no name japan that is nto part of their forces. So the only way to counter the killing if the chinese is to kill those actively being involved in killing the chinese. That would be "fair".
But war is not about being fair, War is about trying to win a conflict by maximising casualties on the other side and minimising losses on the wons side. And that why it rather soon ends with killing the civilians. But none of these wars were won this way. They were always won when the people repsonsible for this were caught, or suicied or gave up because they feared they won't be save anymore.

Marack Drock, on 06 August 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

The Japanese got a friendly reply. In reality America would have bombed them another 2 times (we had another 2 bombs made and ready) if they hadn't surrendered. And the death toll still would not even come close to what the Japanese logged. Hell, it wouldn't even come close to the number of Americans alone they killed. We replied in kind.

The Japanese were responsible for 32 million deaths. Nothing can justify that. Those bombs while inhumane won the goddamn war with Japan hands down. Japan is lucky they weren't bombed 4 times. They murdered millions, I think we returned the favor in kind for what they did to 25 million innocent people.

read what you wrote, dude seriously. This is nearly bloodfeud mentality right here. "Look the johnson guy killed grandma and granddad before he fled away. Now we kill his aunt just because he killed two of us, and so we are even kind because we killed only one of them. And it matters not if the aunt even had any relation to this except being from the same family?"

Are you f..... serious? I doubt I wand to bring this discussion any further with you, becaus that bloodfeud logic is exactly what your logic inhabits and it so wrong. If you can't even see this, god help you with some insight in humanity.

But exactly this mentality explains why Vietnam was done like it was done. Accepting any collateral damage as long as it furfills the purpose and we cover it with soem weird logic why it hads to be done and why we still are "right"

It's the moment where I start to wonder if you work in the military or some closely related profession, because your flawed logic and how you say stuff seems very much like the brainwash they give these peopel to justify the injustice happening on innocent people for the "greater good"

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 August 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[Mystere]

Sigh! People are losing the point in trying to justify this horrendous act: IT MUST NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN! I repeat: IT MUST NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!

Everything else is rationalization for the deliberate slaughter of civilians. I think this quote best expresses it:

The conventional wisdom in the United States is that the dropping of atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the war, and because of that it was justified - end of story.

Is that really the end of the story?

It's certainly a convenient one. But it is one that was constructed after the war, by America's leaders, to justify what they had done. And what they had done was, by any measure, horrendous.

And this tidbit from a Princeton University student says quite a lot:

I think we as a society need to revisit this point in history and ask ourselves how America came to a point where it was okay to destroy entire cities, to firebomb entire cities.

Helmstif, on 06 August 2015 - 05:14 AM, said:

(EDIT: But regardless, that Gawker article is awful.)

What Gawker article? I linked to the BBC.

[Mystere]

Lily from animove, on 06 August 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

read what you wrote, dude seriously. This is nearly bloodfeud mentality rigt here. "Look the johnson guy killed grandma and granddad before he fled away. Now we kill his aunt just because he killed two of us, and so we are even kind because we killed only one of them. And it matters not if the aunt even ad any relation to this except being form the same family?"

Are f..... serious? I doubt I wand to bring this discussion any further with you, becaus that bloodfeud logic is exactly what your logic inhabits and it so wrong. If you can't even see this, god help you with some insight in humanity.

But exactly this mentality explains why Vietnam was done like it was done. Accepting any collateral damage as long as it furfills the purpose and we cover it with soem weird logic why it hads to be done and why we still are "right"

It's the moment where I start to wonder if you work in the military or some closely related profession, because your flawed logic and how you say stuff seems very much like the brainwash they give these peopel to justify the injustice happening on innocent people for the "greater good"

This is the mentality that has made the first decade and a half (and counting) of the 21st Century terrible, and no different from the century before it.

Edited by Mystere, 06 August 2015 - 07:19 AM.