22 replies to this topic

[Yellonet]

OK, I'm sure a few have suggested this before, but I'm hoping to get lots of people behind this so that maybe someone with a bit of influence picks this up.

I would like starting locations, bases and cap points to be randomly (within limits of course) selected for each map and each time you play that map.

Lots of people complain - rightfully - that many matches play out the same and in the same locations on the maps, so in essence most of the maps are not used at all.
Just think of the new big Forest Colony, how much of that map is really used in a match?
The reason that matches play out the same is that spawn locations, bases and cap zones are always in the same known places, so people have a set way to play the map already in their head before the match begins.

If these points of interest (POI) where dynamic and would change for each match, how that match would play out would also change, and much more of the maps would get used.
Overall it would be a really great improvement for gameplay while at the same time being a relatively easy job for PGI.

Just think about it, if you don't know where the enemy spawned and their base or the cap zones are in different locations every time you play a map, scouting, careful movement and good leadership all becomes more important.

The maps would really feel new I think, and the limited numbers of maps wouldn't be a problem as they would play differently from match to match.

Just consider how different these two matches with different spawns would play out:





What say you?

Edited by Yellonet, 28 September 2015 - 05:55 AM.

[sycocys]

The only map it might really change anything on is Forest Colony. The rest of the maps are arena shooters that are either too small or built with a specific place to fight right in the design.

[JernauM]

I like the idea. I would further like to see all three lances spawn in reasonably close proximity to each other, rather than in three separate locations, for reasons I described in this thread.

[SnagaDance]

I would love something like this. I wouldn't even mind spawns to be mixed between the 2 teams, starting to move at the start of the match and then stumbling (or properly scouting!!) an enemy lance in your path.

Charly lance in the tree line!!

[Mycrus]

Yellonet, on 27 August 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

OK, I'm sure a few have suggested this before, but I'm hoping to get lots of people behind this so that maybe someone with a bit of influence picks this up.

I would like starting locations, bases and cap points to be randomly (within limits of course) selected for each map and each time you play that map.

Lots of people complain - rightfully - that many matches play out the same and in the same locations on the maps, so in essence most of the maps are not used at all.
Just think of the new big Forest Colony, how much of that map is really used in a match?
The reason that matches play out the same is that spawn locations, bases and cap zones are always in the same known places, so people have a set way to play the map already in their head before the match begins.

If these points of interest (POI) where dynamic and would change for each match, how that match would play out would also change, and much more of the maps would get used.
Overall it would be a really great improvement for gameplay while at the same time being a relatively easy job for PGI.

Just think about it, if you don't know where the enemy spawned and their base or the cap zones are in different locations every time you play a map, scouting, careful movement and good leadership all becomes more important.

The maps would really feel new I think, and the limited numbers of maps wouldn't be a problem as they would play differently from match to match.

What say you?

spawn weren't always where they were.... it has been changed when Russ/Paul feels like it...

[MeiSooHaityu]

Not a bad idea. It couldn't be completely random (for balancing and weird bug reasons), but maybe 3 or 4 preset layouts that are chosen at random.

True a player could technically learn the best approach per preset, but it still adds variety.

Total randomization of points just wouldn't work because a placement might greatly favor one side vs the other. Also things would probably bug out. Cap points might spawn in the air (because a corner spawned on an incline), or points spawning in ground or in terrain making them un-cappable. Also maps without drop ships might spawn players in the air taking fall damage or stuck in the ground/terrain.

Still, a random choice of some preset points would work well I think and would remove the chance of glitches placements that would be likely with total point randomization.

[Maver0ick]

This would encourage scouting.

[SaltBeef]

Non - linear is always the better choice. In the future drop-zones , enemy forces , and added or subtracted mission perameters increase replayability.

[Yellonet]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 August 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Not a bad idea. It couldn't be completely random (for balancing and weird bug reasons), but maybe 3 or 4 preset layouts that are chosen at random.

True a player could technically learn the best approach per preset, but it still adds variety.

Total randomization of points just wouldn't work because a placement might greatly favor one side vs the other. Also things would probably bug out. Cap points might spawn in the air (because a corner spawned on an incline), or points spawning in ground or in terrain making them un-cappable. Also maps without drop ships might spawn players in the air taking fall damage or stuck in the ground/terrain.

Still, a random choice of some preset points would work well I think and would remove the chance of glitches placements that would be likely with total point randomization.

I think that random spawns and random bases/caps could work by having zones where these things can be, and there would have to be some logic that makes things not spawn in the air and so on.

For skirmish I think that the lances should all spawn pretty close to eachother, but both teams can spawn pretty much anywhere on the map, the only rule here would be that there's some minimum distance between the teams. This would make scouting important.

For assault the map could be split it two zones in which the teams respective bases are spawned and the players, but the zones should be large so that you don't know exactly where the enemy is.

In conquest there should be no cap zones capped at start, and they should be randomly spread across the map, with the rules of the total distance to all cap zones being somewhat equal for both teams, that way it would be fair, but It would not be possible to deduct where the enemy starts.
Lances could be separated quite a bit, and perhaps there would even be an enemy lance between two friendly lances. All this would make rushing to nearest cap or getting together with team a more important and precarious decision than it is now.

Edited by Yellonet, 27 August 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[Yellonet]

Just consider how differently these two assault scenarios would play out:

[Yellonet]

BUMP, because I really believe in this idea.

[Tamwulf]

Played in a defence mission where the opposing forces pushed us all the way back to our spawn point. After that, they just stood in a semicircle around the spawn point and killed everything that spawned.

I can't believe that the spawn points and bases are fixed. That just goes against almost every FPS game made today. Other games might have fixed spawn points, but they are multiple points on a map and you never spawn right in front of an enemy.

I just started playing the game again after over a year absence. After playing this weekend a bit, I readily noticed that people play almost the exact same way on certain maps.

[Lord Auriel]

+1, this idea is total swag

[QuulDrah]

Idea is good... but... you can't just willy-nilly assign random positions and hope that the result will in any way be balanced.
someone would have to figure out multiple starting positions for each map, that a ) give enough variety in resulting gameplay and b ) still put both teams on equal footings... not easy, probably doable with enough time and testing. worth the effort? that's for PGI to decide... I fear cost/benefit analysis will not be in favor.

Edited by QuulDrah, 28 September 2015 - 06:51 AM.

[TLBFestus]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 August 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Total randomization of points just wouldn't work because a placement might greatly favor one side vs the other. Also things would probably bug out. Cap points might spawn in the air (because a corner spawned on an incline), or points spawning in ground or in terrain making them un-cappable. Also maps without drop ships might spawn players in the air taking fall damage or stuck in the ground/terrain.

Heck, I said it ealier and I'll say it again, PGI would call those things "Features" or "working as intended".

Other than that snarky comment, I agree with what you said. Having 3-4 preset spawn points for each team that are "sync'ed", ie. Team 1 spawns at point B and therefore team 2 spawns at their point B, etc, but selected randomly each time the map loads would be a great way to introduce some much needed variety to the maps.

I'm pretty sure it would take less effort than building a whole new map too, so it would be a much welcomed addition while they work on those new maps.

Even with the new improved larger maps of Forest Colony and River City, most times people head to the new "agreed upon" locations to duke it out. With out the varied spawn points, people just gravitate to the same spots regardless of the map size. At least with different spawn locations they might gravitate to 3-4 different spots to brawl.

Edited by TLBFestus, 28 September 2015 - 08:36 AM.

[Lugh]

You could make the POI the same as War Thunder's break through mode, whereby you have a zone are that you need to occupy uncontested by enemy mechs for X time, that occupation point then changes to a different point on the map and continues to change until victory is achieved.

[Vlad Ward]

People are either way too optimistic or simply don't have a clue why people play the way they do.

Randomizing spawns would not encourage scouting. It would simply add an RNG to determine who can get to the better position first.

Randomizing Forest Colony spawns, for example, will not make anyone actually fight in the forest. It will just give an advantage to whoever spawns closer to the Arch.

This is exactly why PGI does not have random spawns. They balance their maps and spawn points rather compulsively (whether it works out or not is beside the point). Back in CB, Caustic Valley was actually flipped 90 degrees because one side's spawn was closer to the Caldera than the other and that team almost always won the match.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 28 September 2015 - 08:46 AM.

[Yellonet]

QuulDrah, on 28 September 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

Idea is good... but... you can't just willy-nilly assign random positions and hope that the result will in any way be balanced.
someone would have to figure out multiple starting positions for each map, that a ) give enough variety in resulting gameplay and b ) still put both teams on equal footings... not easy, probably doable with enough time and testing. worth the effort? that's for PGI to decide... I fear cost/benefit analysis will not be in favor.

You'd be right if it was made in the "willy-nilly" way as you say.
But as I said, it would be random within a few rules.
For instance, PGI would assign areas on each map where spawns, bases and cap zones could not be, and the randomization would then have only to not assign these zones to those areas, areas to avoid would be on top of big hills/mountains that shouldn't be scalable, on top of buildings and so on.
As to making the spawns fair, there could be rules that make the total distance between lances the same for each team, or distance to base/caps or similar rules. I don't think these would have to be very strict though as you would have no way to know if you actually have an advantage, therefore it isn't an advantage most of the time.

[Yellonet]

TLBFestus, on 28 September 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Heck, I said it ealier and I'll say it again, PGI would call those things "Features" or "working as intended".

Other than that snarky comment, I agree with what you said. Having 3-4 preset spawn points for each team that are "sync'ed", ie. Team 1 spawns at point B and therefore team 2 spawns at their point B, etc, but selected randomly each time the map loads would be a great way to introduce some much needed variety to the maps.

I'm pretty sure it would take less effort than building a whole new map too, so it would be a much welcomed addition while they work on those new maps.

Even with the new improved larger maps of Forest Colony and River City, most times people head to the new "agreed upon" locations to duke it out. With out the varied spawn points, people just gravitate to the same spots regardless of the map size. At least with different spawn locations they might gravitate to 3-4 different spots to brawl.

If there are a few set spawn locations players will soon learn them and then the gameplay will be back to business as usual.
The key thing is to make each time you play a map present you with a different challenge.
It's imperative that you have no idea of where the enemy are from the beginning.
Just getting the team grouped up might be an adventure all of its own.

And with the coming "information war" this would work doubly well as scouting would be even more important.

[Yellonet]

Vlad Ward, on 28 September 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

People are either way too optimistic or simply don't have a clue why people play the way they do.

Randomizing spawns would not encourage scouting. It would simply add an RNG to determine who can get to the better position first.

Randomizing Forest Colony spawns, for example, will not make anyone actually fight in the forest. It will just give an advantage to whoever spawns closer to the Arch.

This is exactly why PGI does not have random spawns. They balance their maps and spawn points rather compulsively (whether it works out or not is beside the point). Back in CB, Caustic Valley was actually flipped 90 degrees because one side's spawn was closer to the Caldera than the other and that team almost always won the match.

So, one lance spawns close to the arch, they run their and say "haha, we got here first!" After waiting a while for their teammates to hook up they find themselves surrounded by all three enemy lances. "Help!".
And if it's not skirmish, why run to the arch?