44 replies to this topic

[Vegalas]

I started thinking about this again after seeing a topic about a similar idea on the forums. In lore and in games a mechs reactor could have a cascading failure resulting in an explosion if the mech had taken too much punishment. What if this was added into the game? It could change the way some mechs are played. We could also get some use out of the players that would simply charge against the enemy and getting destroyed. Of course suiciding in the middle of enemy mechs could have a more strategic intention too. I figured I could just throw out some numbers here while being at it. Not sure if they're legit to be honest but the idea is the most important thing here.

Mechanics:

-The possibility of an explosion happening would come into affect after the mech has only 50% of its health left or lower. The mech would of course explode upon destruction. I also mentioned a probability which means that the reactor won't necessarily explode even if the health is under 50%.

The explosion effects and radius would vary on a few factors:

• energy output of a mechs systems. This would take into account all the equipment including engines and jump jets etc.

• The current heat of the mech could add some damage and radius.

• If weapons or other equipment get destroyed the damage potential of the explosion would decrease.

• The explosion would also raise the heat of nearby mechs depending on the distance. Same goes for damage.

Other afterthoughts:

I have made a new topic with similar statements but the idea is much more straight forward than what is presented here. As a result reactors could be part of a strategy and an explosion would be a much more predictable thing making the gameplay more in-depth.

http://mwomercs.com/...05#entry4900805

-A module could be added which would increase the explosion threshold and other effects. There also could be module that would decrease any explosion effects to avoid friendlies from getting damaged.

-The current heat of the mech could also add to the probability to the mech exploding upon destruction.

It also might be useful if a self-destruct sequence could be activated after a certain damage threshold. This could be lower than the explosion activation threshold, like the health would have to be like under 40-45% for the self-destruct sequence to be activated. For some practical reasons though I think the activation threshold should be the same as the reactor explosion threshold 50%. It would also be cool if the pilot ejected just before the end of the self-destruct sequence.

These sets of values affecting the explosion of a mech could vary between different mechs. In other words some mechs could explode more easily than others and with different results.

Tonnage could be a variable in the explosion too because engines of similar sizes can be put on lights and heavies alike which could lead lead to lights having too large explosions for their size.

Edited by Vegalas, 09 January 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Night Thastus]

Don't vote in your own poll man. That's dishonest and just wrong.

For the love of god will people stop suggesting this nonsense? It always comes up, and it always gets shot down.

BATTLEMECHS USE FUSION REACTORS. NOT FISSION. IT'S REALLY STABLE.

THEY CAN'T "GO CRITICAL" AND EXPLODE. IT'S COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE.

In the worst case scenario, the reactor's shielding will be breached by enemy fire, causing oxygen from the air to get pulled into the reactor, turn into plasma, and then get shot out. It's essentially a high-powered flamer for a second or two until your 'Mech shuts down from lack of fuel.

Even if it wasn't completely impossible lore and science-wise, I still wouldn't agree with it, because then I'd get completely moronic guys who rush a team, suicide, and take out a couple. Or, a team-mate dies next to me, causing a gigantic explosion that punishes me for their death. That's NOT ok. The grind is already hard enough without my own team-mates stealing my chances away, even unintentionally.

[Nesutizale]

I like the idea but I am torn between wanting this and not...

From a "real" point of view, fusion reactors don't explode...that is as far as my knowledge goes.
What might happen is that the plasma gets out for a very short amount of time (maybe).
So from that point of view, no reactor explosions.

On the other hand it would be some nice eyecandy and very setisfying for you after hammering away at a target.

As for the gameplay. I had reactor explosions in the TT per houserules and I belive we made it so that if the reactor got 3 critical hits in one round the failsave wouldn't work and the reactor overloads, leading to the explosion.
Damage was reactorvalue/5 in the field the mechs standing it (in case someone was in the same spot or the mech was on a building) and reactorvalue/10 to the surounding fields.
So a 400 reactor would do 40 damage to its surounding in 5 points each.

It happend not that often but was pretty hard hitting. A problem we also faced was that people tried to suicide when they where damaged enough. Luckly we where not good in roling crits and mostly destroyed the internal before we got 3 crits in one round. Still it happens.

So since this MWO is different to the TT I would guess that 3 crits in a row will happen a lot more, espacialy when more then one mech is firing on the same target.
Therefore I wouldn't like to see this mechanic in place as it would leed to even more facehuging by light mechs with big reactors and "no weapons".
This would be very annoing and dosn't do any good for gameplay.

So here is an alternative that is kinda middleground.
When a mech receives 3 critial hits in its reactor (don't know how often this happens in MWO but hope it will be rare) the following would happens:

1) We see for a very short duration a flash of light from the inside of the mech, representing the plasma leaking out of the reactor.
If there is any ammuntion left we get an extra explosion from where the ammo is stored inside the mech...case or no case dosn't matter.

2) Instead of damaging the surounding area, Mechs in close proximity, maybe 10-20meters get an additional heat buildup for one heat cycle (don't know what units MWO is calculating this in)

That way we could have an rewarding "reactor explosion" but without makeing suicide runs that efficient as it will only happen rarely and even if it does it dosn't destroy the enemy in one go. Just builds up heat. Sure the enemy might shut down but thats still better then beeing dealt a massive amount of damage.

Edited by Nesutizale, 16 October 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[Vegalas]

Night Thastus, on 16 October 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Don't vote in your own poll man. That's dishonest and just wrong.

For the love of god will people stop suggesting this nonsense? It always comes up, and it always gets shot down.

BATTLEMECHS USE FUSION REACTORS. NOT FISSION. IT'S REALLY STABLE.

THEY CAN'T "GO CRITICAL" AND EXPLODE. IT'S COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE.

Relax, I brought this topic up to be discussed. Don't come here flaming if you're not interested in it. Yes, I do know that in real life as far science understands it, fusion reactors can't explode. However you have take into account that reactor explosions have been part of Battletech lore probably from the very beginning and they have been featured many times in cinematics. Yes, they also have been over exaggerated more than likely. I think the MW5 trailer had the largest explosion ever coming out of the Warhammer. Besides I don't try to think Battletech in a very logical or "realistic" way anymore because the stuff has so many flaws in it. If you're still irritated about it. You could still think that reactor explosions are actually rigged to prevent the mech from going into enemy hands. The mechanics of the fusion reactors could be so special that it somehow could create an explosion of it's own. Who knows after all you aren't supposed to be able to fit anything along the lines of a fusion reactor into mechs. It just wouldn't fit. Figure out your own nonsense before criticizing somebody elses.

@Nesutizale I doubt that suicide runs with lights would be that much of a problem if they created a much smaller explosion than other mechs. I like the idea of making that sort of a tactic into less of a good trade-off. I guess another point of having the reactor explode would be preventing overenthusiastic players from totally decimating an opponent at close range without a reason.

Edited by Vegalas, 16 October 2015 - 08:41 AM.

[Khanublikhan]

Have a pretty explosion. An expanding pressure wave. Screenshake. An eye-watering glow that fades to reveal a smoking ruin of a mech.

Damage? I'll take jawdropping fireworks.

[Nesutizale]

It depends on how you calculate the reactor explosion. In theorie you could build a running reactor and I bet people will do it because it happend in the TT and this is the online world...people do "interesting" things

Just theoreticly you could build a 35t mech with an 280 reactor.,.IIRC the TT rules. Its not the biggest out there but would still be like an AC20 to the face. Don't think its worth it.

Also as mentioned above, so close as people group together a well place shot into a group could damage the allies more then you could hope to dish out.
On the other hand that would work well to reduce the "ball of death" simtom we have in many games.

[Vegalas]

I agree that the it all depends on how you calculate the reactor explosion. I perhaps wasn't clear enough about what should be taken into the equation. The idea was that everything put into a mech would somehow affects the explosion. It might not make much sense when it's told this way but think about it. Larger mechs have more equipment than smaller ones hence they will have a large explosion. Then again I don't think it's good idea to have it too dependent on the amount of equipment because it seems too one-sided. I wouldn't focus on the engines too much either. After all they're not the reactor itself but just a mechanical system using the energy produced by the reactor. All I am telling is that a large engine shouldn't necessarily equal a large explosion.

Edited by Vegalas, 22 October 2015 - 01:46 AM.

[Night Thastus]

Vegalas, on 16 October 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Relax, I brought this topic up to be discussed. Don't come here flaming if you're not interested in it. Yes, I do know that in real life as far science understands it, fusion reactors can't explode. However you have take into account that reactor explosions have been part of Battletech lore probably from the very beginning and they have been featured many times in cinematics. Yes, they also have been over exaggerated more than likely. I think the MW5 trailer had the largest explosion ever coming out of the Warhammer. Besides I don't try to think Battletech in a very logical or "realistic" way anymore because the stuff has so many flaws in it. If you're still irritated about it. You could still think that reactor explosions are actually rigged to prevent the mech from going into enemy hands. The mechanics of the fusion reactors could be so special that it somehow could create an explosion of it's own. Who knows after all you aren't supposed to be able to fit anything along the lines of a fusion reactor into mechs. It just wouldn't fit. Figure out your own nonsense before criticizing somebody elses.

@Nesutizale I doubt that suicide runs with lights would be that much of a problem if they created a much smaller explosion than other mechs. I like the idea of making that sort of a tactic into less of a good trade-off. I guess another point of having the reactor explode would be preventing overenthusiastic players from totally decimating an opponent at close range without a reason.

Even if it's relatively rare, I don't want to see suicide-bombing 'Mechs.

It makes very little sense.

'Mechs, 'Mech factories, dropships, and all of the technology in this universe is really rare and expensive. The technology to make many of them was just plain lost due to wars and conflicts.

Because of that, a pilot would never be stupid enough to trash his own 'Mech just so it didn't get into the enemy's hands. It's like the HPG's (Hyperpulse Generators). You don't just up and destroy them. In 'Mech on 'Mech combat it's acceptable if they get destroyed, but generally you try to salvage whatever you can because of that rarity.

The cinematics are just that, cinematics, not cannon.

So no, I'm still not cool with 'Mechs exploding. No thanks.

[Nesutizale]

If you compare MWO to strict lore you would also have to remove costum mechs for IS, except you are a merc who has to depent mostly on salvage and will build frankenmech configs. Still far away from what you see currently in use.

So arguing with lore isn't working here....while I agree that it would be pretty stupid if people start running into you just for the explosion and not because it just so happend.

In that regard I am with you for not doing any kind of damage. Heat maybe but definitly no damage. Still a just visual more impressive "kill" animation then what we currently have would be nice.

[Vegalas]

It seems that this topic hasn't got too many comments. It's a bit strange since I think nuclear-related explosions are atleast as authentic to Mechwarrior as Solaris. As a feature it would help breaking up those mech deathballs that occasionally roll around in public matches.

Edited by Vegalas, 19 November 2015 - 01:48 PM.

[Scanz]

i thinking about - explosions when CT,RT\LT is destroyed. like in MW4.
but do not know lore. Lore important to me, if there was the possibility of an explosion, and then the MWO is not desirable

[Vegalas]

Well the physics of reality already break the lore of MWO if we really start nitpicking about it, so I don't really see your point there. Mechs exploding upon destruction is almost a tradition. Why get rid of such an awesome thing?

EDIT: I think that making mechs explode MW4 is too much because all mechs don't get destroyed when their LT/RT gets blown off, so it wouldn't be fair. That's why I came up with the idea of having a hitpoint threshold as an activation mechanic.

Edited by Vegalas, 19 November 2015 - 01:54 PM.

[Biclor Moban]

Okay.
The only way I see this really working is if a mech is destroyed when its in an overheat state. It would be more analagous to a boiler expolosion. The only note is with this "boiler" explosion you have super heated and solid medal flying everywhere. It would be probably a bit mor than additional heat added.

Below is what I think would be more of what you would get in a Plasma boiler explosion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAHEM

So no heat damage would not be enough.

[Vegalas]

What you're referring to could be the explosion potential at maximum because I doubt it's a good idea to have mechs exploding because of overheating. The critical factor should be the percentage of your mechs hp. After it drops under a certain threshold the mechs energy production systems could be damaged enough for them to start malfunction eventually leading to an explosion. Heat could be a factor in this but to what extent I'm not so sure.

[Kissamies]

Back in the 90's I remember trying out someone's computer version of Battletech. It was otherwise decent, but ruined by his addition of his own elements to it, like ridiculous animu weapons and over the top reactor explosions that almost ensured that duels ended with both parties dead. Later I saw optional tabletop rules for them too. They seemed more reasonable. IIRC, they stated that if the whole center torso internal structure gets destroyed very rapidly, the reactor may explode, doing damage stated before in this thread.

I don't think I'd like damaging mech explosions in this game even if they were rare, but some cool visual effects like Khanublikan suggested would be great.

[Vegalas]

Yeah, I might make a whole new thread with different statements on it because I have somewhat changed my mind on some things. I have been thinking the threshold should be a bit higher and an explosion should happen 100% sure if the health gets under it. These things wouldn't be too inconvenient since you can destroy a mech while it has about 85% of it's health left if you crit it in the torso.

Edited by Vegalas, 11 December 2015 - 06:17 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

OK first no - i did hate it in MW4 (even when it had a reason)

Second...well the nuclear explosions in MWLL were great...
The first time i though what was that - I'm blind help me I can't see anything.

Oh and those explosions in MW3 had the right frequency.... (i only can remember a couple of explosions and i have played the game for years)

The only time a critical effect should happen: when time between first damage and destruction of a location that has reactor crits is less than 1-2 seconds.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 December 2015 - 06:43 AM.

[Vegalas]

In addition to the damage threshold? It would mix things quite a lot. I did some tests and noticed that a de-armored mech has a little more health percentage than 50 and you don't see de-armored mechs that often. The thing your suggesting would promote lrm spam and other AoE weapons. Clan ER PPC *cough*

Edited by Vegalas, 11 December 2015 - 07:32 AM.

[Biclor Moban]

Vegalas, on 11 December 2015 - 03:39 AM, said:

What you're referring to could be the explosion potential at maximum because I doubt it's a good idea to have mechs exploding because of overheating. The critical factor should be the percentage of your mechs hp. After it drops under a certain threshold the mechs energy production systems could be damaged enough for them to start malfunction eventually leading to an explosion. Heat could be a factor in this but to what extent I'm not so sure.

I think this is directed towards me?

I can be more clear.

I stated this would happen when in a overheat state not solely because of a overheat state. I would say if the rest of the mech was perfect there would be a higher chance of explosion due to the system operating at max engine output. I don't think it matters the state of the rest of the mech though.

What I left out (I was tired and being lazy, sorry).

Destroying the CT (standard or XL) is the only component that would cause explosion. Blowing anything but CT would do nothing, even the head.

Mech would have to be over it's heat limit. Full heat bar that's all red, no visual change for 1-2 seconds.
You know .25 seconds before you kill yourself "BiclorMoban has killed BiclorMoban" the shot would have to be made in that .25 seconds.

It would only happen in Elite/Mastered mechs that have had their heat threshold raised 2x.

A laser weapon doing 5 base damage or higher would breach reactor. (10 SML shot at the same time wouldn't do it)
A ballistic weapon doing 5 base damage or higher would breach the reactor. ( So no machine guns no matter how many are going)
A missile weapon doing 5 base damage or higher would breach the reactor. (so no missiles.. does a single clan srm missile do more than 5 damage?)

Could be done from front or back.

Using the artillery mechanic and exploding mech would do 35 damage if running a reactor below 250 and 2x 35 damage for those above.

Ammo cook offs could cause this but only ammo (see above) that is stored in the CT and at an occurrence of .5%

Lastly if the CT was struck and all the above criteria were met only the final shot to kill a mech would have a 1% (1.5%XL) Chance to cause explosion. A (c)Gauss or (c)AC20 (not multi round CUltraAC20) that chance would be increased to 2% (3% XL). Its easier to crit and XL so it should be easier for it to explode.

In conclusion I see this as a tool to make a better overall game experience. How you ask.
1. Big explosions!
2. Reduce the occurrence of 2 overheated mechs in the face to face, fire - shut down, fire-shutdown, fire-shutdown, fire- boom scenario.
3. Reduce the occurrence of Lights running right up your butt (since there is no real collision system) and coring you.
4. Big explosions?!

Thank you for your time.

Edited by Biclor Moban, 11 December 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[Sinytar]

Like this idea. It can lead to end of deathball vs deathball and I am all for that. But I think it should be made simpler if implemented. No chances, only a simple condition: heat above 80%, then 20-40dmg (according to size of engine) 30m radius BOOM.
Why simple condition? You can play around it more efficiently.
This thing punishes big groups of mechs in small areas. One guy shuts down with open CT and it can be an end of the whole ball.
It also encourages better heat management and makes some really hot builds worse.
Sounds so good when you think about it as a small nerf to laser vomit and deathball meta.

Edited by Sinytar cz, 11 December 2015 - 09:58 AM.