18 replies to this topic

[Vegalas]

In my opinion this topic comes a bit too late because I was already writing about doing it earlier. Luckily it seems that this discussion always seems to get some attention. This idea I have doesn't conflict with lore too much and it makes common sense too.

My first thread on the subject. I no longer think that the ideas presented were that good though:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Other similarly related thread:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

In short this is a continuation to the same subject on which I had a thread on except that this one has different statements. My idea is that mechs should explode their health gets under a certain threshold. After doing some tests I think the the threshold should be at sixtyish hp because at that point the mech has taken a lot of damage which should add an additional factor to the gameplay. I came to this conclusiona after doing some experiments on the training grounds and found that you can destroy a mech even though it has 85% of it's hp intact. Further more a mech that has 50-60% of it's hp left is pretty heavily damage so having the threshould around 60% would make some sense. The percentages seem work the same with all mechs chassis and weight class barely making a difference.


There are many reasons why mechs should explode at some point in the game. In a brawl being able to explode would be an advantage but while pushing the damaged mech risks damaging allies and because of this mech "deathballs" would be easier to stop. As a result having a feature like this in the game would add a new level of depth to the gameplay and therefore it should be implemented as soon as possible.


What should determine the explosion effects since the chassis would make little difference? I have been thinking that using heat efficiency might do the trick. In any sort of mechanical device the energy output required to run the thing is determined by it's applications. In other words the mechs reactors energy requirement would be determined by the engine and it's weapon systems. Heatsinks are the only problem that concerns me since they make the heat efficiency smaller so I think the explosions stats should be calculated by using the heat efficiency without the heat sinks no matter if they are in the mech or not. As a result of these mechanics heat efficiency and hp would have another purpose given to them.

Additionally there could be explosion related modules, perks, skills and even more. Explosion stats could be tweaked from explosion radius to the rising heat in nearby mechs.
I will be updating the thread later with pics and other things but I think the poll will stay intact.

Edited by Vegalas, 22 July 2016 - 02:39 PM.

[Lanstrike]

I agree on mechs going critical. However I think its should be based on their engine size/ type. also thier heat level at the time of reaching past critical. If you want to be more realistic.

I would not say this is good thing. Could be a lot exploiting with DireStars and full bore Novas, running head first into the fray and turn them selves into override bombs. However it also has a chance to fail or worse, back fire on their own team. Could take out more mechs on enemy team, could take out more on friendly team.

It probably could be added as a special tournament play option or something so that it would increase difficulty, but not change anything else about how the game is played right now.
I say take it to test server. Try it on for size there.

[Lanstrike]

Hmm engine size for the radius and damage, then heat amount for the % of effect the exposition has. Cap the percent at 100%. So if someone tries a high alpha of 11 er pcc at 400% heat, they only get 100% percent effect total and not 4 times their engines normal max damage.

[Hotthedd]

There are no poll options for #2 or #3 for those who vote "No" to #1.

[Firewuff]

Heat efficency should be irrelevant. I mech going nova happens whenthe engine is breached. It doesnt always happen and should only occur randomly when the CT is cored. Not if it is destroyed via a gead shot or legged

[Vegalas]

I explained that the heat efficiency is connected to the energy output because the huge amount of energy coming from the weapons which the heatsinks are supposed to compensate for. The weapons also require large amount of energy thus adding more requirement for energy production from the reactor. Of course the heat efficiency doesn't take into account the energy requirement of the engine but that doesn't bother me.

EDIT:

Hotthedd, on 23 December 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

There are no poll options for #2 or #3 for those who vote "No" to #1.

I fixed the problem. Sorry my bad, I think I had forgotten that the poll doesn't work when atleast one option isn't selected from the poll.

Edited by Vegalas, 27 December 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[Famine]

While I do LOVE explosions, even in the lore, mech's RARELY exploded, an engine just shuts down when it starts to breach, and even if breached completely, the plasma would just be cooled by the outside air, or vent into space if there was no atmosphere.

I'd be interested in seeing it as a percentage chance of happening if an engine has suffered criticals, once the CT is destroyed. Even then, the explosion should be negligible for anyone and anything standing nearby, a couple points of armor damage, and some shake. A fun little thing that'l look cool for everyone involved, without actually having to have a gameplay effect. I'd sooner want to see CASE's redirected explosions being able to damage nearby allies, before I'd like to see engine explosions wreck the poor guys who dared stand near the assaults.

Back in the old games, it was easier to just explode a mech and replace it with a charred husk that took up less memory space, so that's what they did. Now, we have a more accurate representation of what the lore shows as being a thing.

[metalxxx]

Hi. I played old version pc MW. (Mw 4) vengeance if I remember correctly .. had many destructive weapons, but there was one that I believe is called ... NUCLEAR BLAST was one bomb 20 tn leaving destruction in its paso..era most destructive weapon and ballistic that game !!! I think I should be in MWO !!!

[Fiona Marshe]

Fusion engines are "cascade fail-safe" as opposed to Fission engines which are "cascade fail".

There are several scientific papers linked on SARNA about it. Aside from some visual pyrotechnics of a failing fusion engine, the worst effect would be some sunburn if too close.

[Vegalas]

This is could be regarded to all those "cannoneers" this forum has. As it has been proven in previous discussions that were linked in the OP, using lore as an argument against a gameplay mechanic lke this works only to a certain point. For example stating that mechs rarely exploded makes little sense when in earlier mech-game titles have mech exploding upon destruction most of the time. It's contradictory to TT lore but it was a thing and made the games more interesting. I believe that the situation could be the same with MWO. The reason I don't like the idea of the explosion happening on a random occurance after the hp is under a certain threshold, is the fact that players can't exploit exploding mechs so easily. As a result using the mechanic isn't a very valid option in a strategy and the impact to gameplay tactics would be much smaller.

As far as the argument of "Fusion reactors not being able to explode" goes, I don't really care. Quantum physics is a HIGHLY THEORETICAL field of science and basically anything can change in the way fusion reactors work. The donut-shaped Tokamak reactor has proven to be ineffective in the means of energy production so far which means that it's practically useless. Sure there has been development in that field science after there was a reactor built in a more deformed donut-shaped in Germany but that only shows how radically concept can change. Who knows what kind of fusion reactors are needed to power those mechs and who knows if they could explode in a very fiery fashion. I just want that into the game to make the gameplay more dynamic and interesting.

Edited by Vegalas, 28 December 2015 - 02:04 PM.

[Hotthedd]

I'm just afraid that if we are able to make 'mechs into walking bombs that ISIS will use MW:O as a training tool for their suicide bombers.
As you can see, real life training can be inefficient.

[Hawk_eye]

Vegalas, on 28 December 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

As far as the argument of "Fusion reactors not being able to explode" goes, I don't really care. Quantum physics is a HIGHLY THEORETICAL field of science and basically anything can change in the way fusion reactors work. The donut-shaped Tokamak reactor has proven to be ineffective in the means of energy production so far which means that it's practically useless. Sure there has been development in that field science after there was a reactor built in a more deformed donut-shaped in Germany but that only shows how radically concept can change. Who knows what kind of fusion reactors are needed to power those mechs and who knows if they could explode in a very fiery fashion. I just want that into the game to make the gameplay more dynamic and interesting.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Now, I´m not a physicist, but Quantum Theory is _not_ just a "Highly Theoretical" thingy.

I suppose you have a DVD/Blue Ray player in your PC.
It works.
That´s Quantum Theory at work
You might have a Navigation system in your car (you know, GPS?)
It works.
That´s Quantum Theory at work.
Pretty much _everyone_ has a metric _crap-ton_ of gadgets in his possession that use Quantum effects.

Note:
I´m not saying our theories of nature and it´s laws are right (we can´t prove a theory/law is _right_), but if they are wrong, they are bloody _good_ wrong and any new theory/law would have to be at _least_ as good (so you have this new theory about how things work, then it better be able to explain (in a different way) why, for example, a laser, um, lases, why moving clocks run "slower" and why light from a source moving away from us is shifted to the red while it is shifted to the blue when the source is moving towards us (yes, I threw in a little Relativity too ) )

In addition, the shape of a fusion reactor dosn´t come into it at all.
The basic will still be the same.
You have an _extremely_ hot plasma, held in place by electro-magnetic fields where hydrogen/deuterium atoms "fuse" to Helium. Once the magnetic files collapse (reactor breached), the plasma expands, cooling rapidly, which in turn stops the fusion process.

Gameplay wise, it would be complete crap. Everyone would stay the hell away from everyone, and the moment an enemy forms up a battle-line, a light could rush in and either get shot at and blowing up, taking a couple enemies with it, or no one would risk shooting at him, out of fear for exactly this happening.
Complete bullocks!

[Astarot]

I'll post this here like the last thread I posted in involving fusion reactor explosions.
You can get a Fusion reactor explosion, however, according to the lore and books, it nothing like the mechwarrior reactor explosions. In the event that the reactor is breached before the shut down processes is engaged, the coolant, and liquid source(Most likely water) used to turn to steam and in turn power the small reactor will flash boil all at once, resulting in a MASSIVE build up in pressure. This of course causes an explosion very similar to a boiler exploding, which is actually very devastating to things around it, I mean metal being ejected at high speeds in all direction? However even if a double critical hit on a reactor happen in MWO, I doubt it would be like a nuke going of, it will be more like splash damage that would do an average amount of damage spread out across the entire mech.



an example of a boiler explosion, and the amount of damage it can do to things around it.

Ninja edit: Fun fact, a nuclear fission reactor actually explodes in a very common methiod, it actually not the nuclear material exploding, it the reactor cracking, and in turn the SUPER HOT MATERIAL leaking into the coolent and power generator fluids (water) causing the entire system to flash boil all at once, the only difference of course is the super hot material leaking out of a fission reactor is very radioactive and when the steam causes the system to explode it along with the now radioactive water spews in all directions.

Edited by Astarot, 15 January 2016 - 08:17 AM.

[Vegalas]

Antecursor Venatus, on 15 January 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

Gameplay wise, it would be complete crap. Everyone would stay the hell away from everyone, and the moment an enemy forms up a battle-line, a light could rush in and either get shot at and blowing up, taking a couple enemies with it, or no one would risk shooting at him, out of fear for exactly this happening. Complete bullocks!

Well, the mech doesn't explode if it's hp percentage is above the threshold which is quite possible since I assume a lot of mechs get destroyed while having 70+ % of their hp intact. Making a critical hit on the light and taking it down without damaging it too much would negate the threat of an explosion. That's the basic idea of having mechs explode when their hp is under a certain percentage.

Obviously there's a lot of support for the flash and bang effect during destruction. I have nothing against this since even having anything like that would make the game much more interesting.

Edited by Vegalas, 18 January 2016 - 12:55 PM.

[NoiseCrypt]

Will someone with "photoshop skills" please replace this man with an Arctic Cheetah.... in hot rod camo...

[ImperialKnight]

nuclear fission/fusion engines do not explode, that's not how they work, despite popular media.

even in BT lore, such fictional engine explosions have to be triggered manually by the pilot, not upon destruction. and if the engine is "killed" during the self-destruct sequence, the explosion is averted

If the idea was based on ammo explosion, it would be better

[VinJade]

mechs without explosive components (Ammo/GR) don't go 'bomb' EVER!
If the engine is taken it just flat out stops working nothing more than that.
it is a Fusion engine & not a fission engine.
The engine exploding in game is known as the stackpole effect, in other words only that idiot made the engine explode. hell many see stockpole as a joke even if he was one of the first writers of the game.

[ice trey]

I vote a thorogh "No" to engine explosions. One from a lore perspective, one from a game perspective.

From the lore perspective, it's all too common that people mistake nuclear fusion for nuclear fission, and basically expect that a 'mech explodes like a hydrogen bomb when the engine goes. That's just not the case. Air getting into the fusion reactor is like pouring a bucket of water on a fire. You get a bit of a burp, and the reaction can't sustain itself and dies. On rare occasions, the fusion reaction is able to heat up the air enough that the engine appears to shoot flames and explode, but that explosion is more akin to a balloon popping than a bomb going off. It might be hazardous to infantry getting hit with tiny bits of shrapnel, but not enough to harm a 'mech. Authors like Stackpole who've taken artistic liberty with the franchise are the cause of this perception, especially since his books made the backbone of the Clan Invasion literature. Mechwarrior 4 only worsened this trend. However, the infamous "engine explosion" is equal or less true to the canon than Tetatae.

As from a game perspective, there's a big problem in that engine explosions are hugely punative to melee combat. Even though the game doesn't have melee yet, many knife-fighting weapons systems like SRMs, small lasers, machine guns and flamers, would be severely penalized by a system where mechs are treated as bombs on legs. This would only make the current "ERLL spam" meta worsen, as who in their right mind would try to close with a 'mech to go in for the kill if the 'mech would only explode and take the attacker out with it? Especially if we start getting punches, kicks, charging attacks, DFAs and Hatchets running in the game, they'd be dead on arrival.

I don't like it in tabletop, I didn't like it in MW4, and I don't want to see it here, either. It doesn't serve any purpose besides "OOH SHINY!".

[VinJade]

Well said Ice.
Though speaking of DFAs I hope we get them as it would be worth me getting a fast medium/light with Jump Jets, and start hurting mechs like the KGC, Dire whales, ect.. hehe