51 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

This nerf was beyond overdue. The old skill tree was terrible for multiple reasons:

1. For the new player experience, it is already bad enough that they have a hard learning curve ahead of them. Now, tack on the fact that their mech is performing up to 45-50% weaker in some areas (like acceleration and deceleration) and it's absolutely absurd. Mastery of mechs should feel like small quirks or a minor combat edge, not a completely different mech.

2. Carrying off the completely different mech aspect, the mastery skills should not make such a vast difference in a mech's performance to make it a completely different machine. That's another reason why I strongly advocate against Speed Tweak, the speed difference that 10% boost makes is like having a 3-4 sizes larger engine in there (which could cost millions of c-bills in the case of a large XL) . . . that's just wrong. The current skills are really not much different from some of the super quirks some mechs currently have, it's just that any mech that is actually mastered already has these boosts.

3. As it currently stands even veteran players state that a new mech needs to be mastered to be competitive, otherwise the grind is a terrible gimp. Again, that shouldn't be the case. A new mech that's well geared should be respectably competitive, not at a handicap until the grind is completed.

Now, granted, we need to see what Pinpoint is going to be replaced with. A 5% boost to the optimal range of weapons I think would be a good choice. I also think Speed Tweak needs to die in a fire and never be seen, on any mech, ever again. On the other hand, it could be replaced with 5-10% sensor range and make it a solid but non-overpowering skill.

These are also changes that help mitigate the utter absurdity of having a skill tree that turns any sluggish mech into a monstrous twitch-machine. This change on PTS is a massive step in the right direction. Even if it is a stand-in, until they're able to go through and completely redo the skill trees for every mech on a more individualized level, it's still a huge improvement.

It makes me recall how they said in an earlier town hall that they'd like to see the skill tree turn into another version of quirks for mechs. That is starting to happen, and that's an excellent move for them to make.

[Nnamleips]

So the "new" skill values are clearly noticeable compared to the old.

But, compared to a non upgraded Mech they are there also.
Thus, the mastered Mechs are now no longer so OP as before.

The change is indeed noticeable, but in my opinion, a step in the right direction.

The Pinpoint skill should be Replace skill by a radar Angle Skill. The detection range of the radar is increased from 60 ° to 90 °.

[Fredpunk]

I just can't agree with the nerfs at all. Reworking is the way to go, or if there is no solution yet, then leave it as it is for now.

[Embalmed]

Sereglach, on 05 November 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

This nerf was beyond overdue. The old skill tree was terrible for multiple reasons:

Beyond overdue? This is just the same song and dance, lets change things for change sake because we think it will make people happy... or maybe it will force people to play the playstyle that ______ thinks the way people should play.

Sereglach, on 05 November 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

1. For the new player experience, it is already bad enough that they have a hard learning curve ahead of them. Now, tack on the fact that their mech is performing up to 45-50% weaker in some areas (like acceleration and deceleration) and it's absolutely absurd. Mastery of mechs should feel like small quirks or a minor combat edge, not a completely different mech.

So the new player experience sucks so much, that instead of thinking of ways to improve it, lets just make the veteran experience more like the newer players. Good idea!
I'm sold!

Edited by Embalmed, 05 November 2015 - 07:39 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

It's interesting how it seems like all the people with like 10 posts hate the skill tree change and people with a lot of posts seem to generally like the skill tree change.

[Sereglach]

Embalmed, on 05 November 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Beyond overdue? This is just the same song and dance, lets change things for change sake because we think it will make people happy... or maybe it will force people to play the playstyle that ______ thinks the way people should play.

That's not happening with the skill trees, at all. They're being nerfed out of the position of being super-quirks in-and-of themselves. They should not turn a Dire Wolf's agility (turning, arm movement, deceleration, acceleration, etc.) into that of a mech 30 tons lighter, with the same engine. That is what the current mech skills achieve on Live Servers, and it's a terrible concept. Speed Tweak exacerbates the problem even further, which is another reason I advocate its removal.

Why pilot a light when a medium handles like a light? or a medium when a heavy handles like a medium? or a heavy when an assault handles like a heavy? 55 ton medium mechs easily breaking 100kph and turning on a dime. Heavies clocking in at 90kph+ and easily maneuvering through tight urban terrain at full speed without a hitch. The slowest and most "lumbering" of assaults still breaching 50kph and easily tracking a 170kph light running across its screen.

Do you not see the problem with this? When you pilot a mech of a certain weight class, it should feel like that weight class; and it should not feel like the weight class below it.

Embalmed, on 05 November 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

So the new player experience sucks so much, that instead of thinking of ways to improve it, lets just make the veteran experience more like the newer players. Good idea!
I'm sold!

They've actually done great things to improve the new player experience with tools such as the new MechWarrior Academy, the Field Manual UI Interface, and the Default Key-Bindings display. However, this change doesn't just improve the new player experience by preventing them from being terribly handicapped in mech performance (regardless of skill).

What it also accomplishes is twofold; and affects all players equally:

1. It ensures that a mastered mech doesn't perform like an entirely different machine from a stock counterpart, instead leaving mastery as a distinct -yet manageable- combat edge.

2. It ensures that a stock mech in the hands of a skilled pilot is still at least competitive on the field of battle, instead of making the grind to mastery a distinct gimp for any pilot that isn't willing or able to burn 108k GXP (enough to take three mechs through basic and elite skills, leaving only mastery to grind for).

Lyoto Machida, on 05 November 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

It's interesting how it seems like all the people with like 10 posts hate the skill tree change and people with a lot of posts seem to generally like the skill tree change.

I'm noticing that trend as well; and with the rhetoric that some people are continually touting it makes me wonder whether they've even played the PTS . . . and how much they play on live, for that matter.

Edited by Sereglach, 05 November 2015 - 09:24 PM.

[sycocys]

The more mechs I drop in, the more the game feels like a Mechwarrior sim and the less it feels like Mechwarrior arcade.

[Fredpunk]

But the game says nowhere it's a simulator. It is a shooter (for me at least, just not in an ordinary way like csgo).

[Brawler1986]

In my opinion PGI shouldn't touch the values of this Mech skill tree, but create a whole new Mech skill tree.

The problem with the current skill tree is, there is no choice involved. The definition of a skill Tree is, having a global trunk or stem with specialized branches. Look at the League of Legends mastery tree, this might be a cliche example but it totally makes sense. You have different specialization columns where you can invest your xp, but you can only choose 2 specializations from the 5 for example. Once you have chosen a path you can only go in that direction.

At the moment you can tweak movement, agility, attack speed and more, all at once without restrictions. Which doesn't make sense. Also they actually got 2 systems which are mutating the characteristics of a mech. The Module system and the Mech skill tree, which makes it unnecessary complex.

[Fredpunk]

Hmm what you have just said would make the game more interesting and probably more attractive. It might be a bit odd example to bring up WoW and choosing a spec like there.

[Sereglach]

Fredpunk, on 06 November 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

But the game says nowhere it's a simulator. It is a shooter (for me at least, just not in an ordinary way like csgo).

You might want to read the original "About" section for the game, either by clicking the "GAME" button above, or using this link: http://mwomercs.com/game

Quote

A tactical BattleMech simulation set in 3050 AD. As a pilot known as a "MechWarrior", you are about to take control of the most powerful mechanical battle units the universe has ever seen.

Apparently you've got the wrong beliefs about the game you're playing.

EDIT: Oh, and I should probably add that it's the very first sentence that you'll see on the page . . . so from the very beginning they're saying it's a simulator.

Edited by Sereglach, 06 November 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Sereglach]

Brawler1986, on 06 November 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

In my opinion PGI shouldn't touch the values of this Mech skill tree, but create a whole new Mech skill tree.

The problem with the current skill tree is, there is no choice involved. The definition of a skill Tree is, having a global trunk or stem with specialized branches. Look at the League of Legends mastery tree, this might be a cliche example but it totally makes sense. You have different specialization columns where you can invest your xp, but you can only choose 2 specializations from the 5 for example. Once you have chosen a path you can only go in that direction.

At the moment you can tweak movement, agility, attack speed and more, all at once without restrictions. Which doesn't make sense. Also they actually got 2 systems which are mutating the characteristics of a mech. The Module system and the Mech skill tree, which makes it unnecessary complex.

Those aren't bad ideas, at all. However, while the LONG TERM GOAL of the skill tree is to completely overhaul it and make it unique for every individual mech, the short-term goal is to remove the current issue where an unmastered mech and a mastered mech feel like two completely different machines. Again, as I've stated before, mech mastery should provide a combat edge . . . not a completely different feeling machine (that performs like something a weight class lighter).