23 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

I played 5 Counter Attack matches in a row today. All of them on Boreal Vault. All of my teams were solo IS PUGs. All of our opponents were medium size Clan premades. All the matches were fairly one-sided losses.

In every match, my IS PUG team did the same thing... walked up to one of the games, into the Clan firing line, through the chokepoint, losing a quarter of their armor. Then they kept advancing up either the right or the left trench to some point where they were eventually ringed by Clan Mechs, and they died.

That pattern was repeated three times, until the final "Mercy Killing" wave, where the Clan team walked out the gates and burned through a few Mechs until they finally got to camp the IS spawn.

I tried to dissuade various teams from taking this approach. Here's my thinking:

1. Boreal has long engagement ranges. It plays to the Clan's advantage.
2. Boreal is cold. That amplifies the Clan's advantage.
3. It's Counter Attack. Losing Mechs to get to Omega is no advantage when you're behind on kills.
4. The closer you get to Omega, the quicker Clans can reinforce their numbers.

I really can't see the point of pushing through chokepoints, losing armor walking in front of an enemy's firing line, when playing against opponents who have better range and are better organised. Especially when that just puts the battle closer to their reinforcement line.

So what's my ''better idea"? Well, there's an event on, and enemy teams need kills and damage. I think that creates an incentive for them to get out of their territory and come fight you... especially when the odds seem to be in their favour.

Unfortunately, I was unable to sign up anyone to my alternative strategy. I kept being told "but if we don't attack we can't win!" I admire optimism, but when it entails following the same losing strategy over and over, against what rationally would seem to be an unfavourable set of battle conditions, it seems less like optimism and more like insanity.

What are your thoughts on this situation and strategy? Do you have a different perspective on how to handle this situation?

Edited by Appogee, 27 November 2015 - 04:33 AM.

[Appogee]

My OP is already too long, so I'm posting this funny epilogue separately...

On the 5th match, I asked my team to reconsider, and not walk yet again, through the gates, into the firing line, to the killbox. They disagreed and went ahead anyway.

So I told them I was going to try something different. I was in a ERLL Wolfhound, and I stayed on the periphery of the battle, sometimes sniping from the gates, sometimes running up into the middle of the enemy territory, and generally trying to distract, skirmish, turning them around, and harassing. In particularly I tried to suppress their LRM boats at the back, who must have rained half their missiles futilely on the various rocks I hid behind. At the same time I was relaying information to the team on enemy advances, etc. It helped, a bit at least, I think. But with most of the team still pressing forward into those familiar side alley killboxes, progressively closer to the enemy point of reinforcement, the team lost the match in the usual way about 38-24 or so.

And of course, I only got to use one of my four Mechs, with the others dropping straight out of the dropship and into a firing line of enemies who were by then camping our spawn.

At the end of the match, a team mate abused the hell out of me for not playing with the team. I again explained what I had been doing and why, and what success it had had for the rest of the team. But he wouldn't hear of it, accusing me of being a poor player, citing my damage score (800 I think, 3 kills, which I agree is low, mind you I only got to use one Mech). I think he would have been happier if I'd just taken my place in the herd en route to the slaughter.

And that was when I discovered...My VOIP microphone wasn't working, and hadn't been working for the entire match...

So: no-one had heard my entreaties to try a different strategy, or any of the intel I'd relayed, or the rationale for what I was doing back there, or anything. All they saw were the few (admittedly narky because I felt I was being ignored) things I'd typed in chat between drops .

Much chagrin on my part.

Edited by Appogee, 03 December 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[BSK]

There are at least 8 mechs that come to my mind which have quirks that overcome Clan range with ease. The point is, on this map you need a synchronized dropdeck which pug drops simply dont have ..

[Marodeur]

Boreal generally favors the clans and is hard for attack for all the reasons you said. Especially against half an organized team against complete pug. But you have mostly no choice and have to push, because of count down. Sniping and Trading against clans is no possibility for an unorganized team. Push in left side all together and stay directly at the beginning of the lane in cover. When clans come closer and want to push behind you in the channel, just push them back and brawl them, cause that is what IS is good in. If they come on top of the hills to your position instead of behind, then all have to push on top of the hill and brawl them. But that needs better timing because mostly not all follow or didn't manage it to find a fast way on top. Important is always get in close kontact. But just pushing forward in the lane mostly doesn't work, because the clans are always faster and kill you one by one from behind.

[Appogee]

BSK, on 27 November 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

There are at least 8 mechs that come to my mind which have quirks that overcome Clan range with ease. The point is, on this map you need a synchronized dropdeck which pug drops simply dont have ..

I agree. If this was a 12-man team with an organised drop deck then we could all take BLR-1Ds and win the range game.

But my question is about teams with 12 or many PUGs. Ie. what's the best strategy when you can't choose your team mates and they bring sub-optimal Mechs?

Marodeur, on 27 November 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

Push in left side all together and stay directly at the beginning of the lane in cover.

I agree this seems a good idea, thanks. (Though it's still quicker for the enemy to reinforce to that position.)

Edited by Appogee, 27 November 2015 - 07:12 AM.

[Prussian Havoc]

Appogee, on 27 November 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

Spoiler

I played 5 Counter Attack matches in a row today. All of them on Boreal Vault. All of my teams were solo IS PUGs. All of our opponents were medium size Clan premades. All the matches were fairly one-sided losses.

In every match, my IS PUG team did the same thing... walked up to one of the games, into the Clan firing line, through the chokepoint, losing a quarter of their armor. Then they kept advancing up either the right or the left trench to some point where they were eventually ringed by Clan Mechs, and they died.

That pattern was repeated three times, until the final "Mercy Killing" wave, where the Clan team walked out the gates and burned through a few Mechs until they finally got to camp the IS spawn.

I tried to dissuade various teams from taking this approach. Here's my thinking:

1. Boreal has long engagement ranges. It plays to the Clan's advantage.
2. Boreal is cold. That amplifies the Clan's advantage.
3. It's Counter Attack. Losing Mechs to get to Omega is no advantage when you're behind on kills.
4. The closer you get to Omega, the quicker Clans can reinforce their numbers.

I really can't see the point of pushing through chokepoints, losing armor walking in front of an enemy's firing line, when playing against opponents who have better range and are better organised. Especially when that just puts the battle closer to their reinforcement line.

So what's my ''better idea"? Well, there's an event on, and enemy teams need kills and damage. I think that creates an incentive for them to get out of their territory and come fight you... especially when the odds seem to be in their favour.

Unfortunately, I was unable to sign up anyone to my alternative strategy. I kept being told "but if we don't attack we can't win!" I admire optimism, but when it entails following the same losing strategy over and over, against what rationally would seem to be an unfavourable set of battle conditions, it seems less like optimism and more like insanity.

What are your thoughts on this situation and strategy? Do you have a different perspective on how to handle this situation?

Appogee, on 27 November 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

Spoiler

My OP is already too long, so I'm posting this funny epilogue separately...

On the 5th match, I asked my team to reconsider, and not walk yet again, through the gates, into the firing line, to the killbox. They disagreed and went ahead anyway.

So I told them I was going to try something different. I stayed on the periphery of the battle, sometimes sniping from the gates, sometimes from the middle of the enemy territory if the battle was on one side. I kept poking, turning the enemy, suppressing their LRM boats at the back, providing information on enemy team locations, etc. It helped, I think. But with 11/12ths of the team still pressing forward into killboxes close to the enemy point of reinforcement, the team lost in the usual way.

At the end of the match, a team mate abused the hell out of me for not engaging. I again explained what I was doing and why. But he wouldn't hear of it, accusing me of being a poor player, citing my damage score (800 I think, 3 kills, which I agree is low) and generally being very unhappy that I hadn't taken my place in the herd en route to the slaughter.

And that was when I discovered...

My VOIP microphone hadn't been working for the entire match... No-one had heard my reasoning on the strategy, any of the intel I'd relayed, the rationale for what I was doing back there, or anything. Just the few things I'd typed in chat between drops

Using my Inner Spere Alternate Account and when Defending (thus Counterattacking) it is always a mixed bag where IS Defenders are almost always on the short end of the stick just as you describe. That is why even when I solo-drop, I prefer to go on the attack whenever possible. The likelihood of dropping with Well-experienced fellow Solo-gamers or small to mid-size groups is far greater thus there is a greater likelihood of excellent gunnery and common tactics.

But when offensive operations are not available and I drop in Defence of an Inner Sphere world on Boreal, I always champion the left push with my fellow Solo-gamers. It is a two-stage push, first to the mid-point and then secondly to the ravine just short of the ramp up to the base, and then a crawl across that ravine.

If during the wait to drop, enough IS Defenders agree to bring ECM Mechs (a couple per wave.) and if each Solo-gamer agrees to counterattack in four distinct waves (and not trickle in, one Mech at a time.) Then there is the bare glimmer of a chance the counter attack will work. The left hand lane forces Clan Mechs to silhouette themselves on the ridge at relatively close range thus playing to IS strengths and lessening the Clan laser advantages. And by controlling the rate of advance up the left lane, those Clan Mechs that decide to act as a "cork in the bottle" for the lane, can be brought under fire one or two at a time as they appear from the right edge of the lane.

A key aspect of each of the four waves is aggression and good short to mid range gunnery (Long Range Trading with base defenders who can just hunker down if they are halfway proficient just won't work.) One of the most important aspects is Wave Mortality - the intent is not to take so few chances that your first Mech lasts 15 to 20 minutes. Such actions "unhinge" wave integrity, lessening potential results and generally making success unlikely.

And finally the push laterally in the ravine just prior to the ramp opens remaining Clan Mechs to fire from Multiple angles, thus slowly cracking any Clan Strongpoints among Boreal's base.

Does that work all the time?

No.

Does that work most of the time?

No.

Does that work just enough of the time to keep hope of victory well nestled in Pandora's Boreal Vault?

Yes!
(Of course it is all so much easier to suggest the above if VOIP is working! )

Edited by Prussian Havoc, 27 November 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[Zordicron]

Part of the problem with Boreal and the range game is if the clammer team has any lick of sense, the ones without ability to fire back will basically camp out. by the time you gain a decent numbers advantage by using superior range mechs you run into a game clock issue. Outshooting and out-exchanging the clan mechs willing to try isn't the issue. But good luck finding a clan premade/part premade willing to exchange their ERML TBR with your ERPPC T-bolt 4 times in a row.

The best way to use the tactic is to stay out, for part of a wave using the range to beat up some of the clan mechs, and then coordinate a push to finish off a wave. That last part is tricky with a pug group, but some simple explaination can work, sometimes. Sometimes you get pug groups where some LRM Stalker will be "helping" at the early part at long range by barfing LURMS at 1400M nonstop. Those pugs, not much you can do.

Outside of all of this, clans basically have the advantage at ERML range. That is, out past IS AC20 and ML/SRM range, but inside IS ERPPC/ERLL range. If you stay out of clan ERML/LPL optimal ranges, and don't derp out, it is pretty easy to come out way ahead on exchanges.

[Deathlike]

Appogee, on 27 November 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

I agree. If this was a 12-man team with an organised drop deck then we could all take BLR-1Ds and win the range game.

But my question is about teams with 12 or many PUGs. Ie. what's the best strategy when you can't choose your team mates and they bring sub-optimal Mechs?


I agree this seems a good idea, thanks. (Though it's still quicker for the enemy to reinforce to that position.)

You can't honestly fix this w/o any sort of prep work (it requires a faction hub to distribute the information in a more useful/productive manner).

What SHOULD happen is that PUGs should really talk to other teams on what they need to do... setup-wise and learn the appropriate strategy to be effective (essentially, learn what the "CW Meta" happens to be).

What ACTUALLY happens is that many PUGs don't have a team based foundation (something that should be somewhat learned in the group queue), and they think their solo queue builds are sufficient enough for "whatever".

While I don't think you have to go full-meta/competitive, but a CW dropdeck needs to be mindful of the role/purpose for what needs to be done. There's a synergy component that allows a reasonably competent group can execute w/o investing too much into the infrastructure (in other words - you don't have to have every build/mech - just enough of them to get by or progress).

So... the only way of doing this properly (to a degree) is making sure the trial dropdeck has a certain level of synergy that works for a CW dropdeck... and I doubt that will be sufficient enough for a new player to get an idea (mostly due to not having a basic CW tutorial).

[Prussian Havoc]

Deathlike, on 27 November 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Spoiler

You can't honestly fix this w/o any sort of prep work (it requires a faction hub to distribute the information in a more useful/productive manner).

What SHOULD happen is that PUGs should really talk to other teams on what they need to do... setup-wise and learn the appropriate strategy to be effective (essentially, learn what the "CW Meta" happens to be).

What ACTUALLY happens is that many PUGs don't have a team based foundation (something that should be somewhat learned in the group queue), and they think their solo queue builds are sufficient enough for "whatever".

While I don't think you have to go full-meta/competitive, but a CW dropdeck needs to be mindful of the role/purpose for what needs to be done. There's a synergy component that allows a reasonably competent group can execute w/o investing too much into the infrastructure (in other words - you don't have to have every build/mech - just enough of them to get by or progress).

So... the only way of doing this properly (to a degree) is making sure the trial dropdeck has a certain level of synergy that works for a CW dropdeck... and I doubt that will be sufficient enough for a new player to get an idea (mostly due to not having a basic CW tutorial).

Inner Sphere Trial Mechs?

Like the ones with one ton of ammo per weapon, single heat sinks and 50-70% armor usage?

Against mid-sized Clan Premade Teams and Solos?


... there may not be a strategy in the world that could take 48-Inner Sphere Trial Mechs against 6 Night Scorn (Clan-variant) / 6 Clan Solos and have any chance of victory.

Yeah... even with solid tactics and wise leadership, the number and quality of IS Trial Mechs will greatly inhibit any chances of a win.

[Deathlike]

Prussian Havoc, on 27 November 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

Inner Sphere Trial Mechs?

Like the ones with one ton of ammo per weapon, single heat sinks and 50-70% armor usage?

Against mid-sized Clan Premade Teams and Solos?

Well, I should've specified the Champions (the actual stock builds are garbage for obvious reasons). For instance, the Raven-3L Champion currently is the proper sniper (2 ERLL)-ECM coverage mech that extraordinarily useful on Boreal.

Quote

... there may not be a strategy in the world that could take 48-Inner Sphere Trial Mechs against 6 Night Scorn (Clan-variant) / 6 Clan Solos and have any chance of victory.

Yeah... even with solid tactics and wise leadership, the number and quality of IS Trial Mechs will greatly inhibit any chances of a win.

The Trial Mechs relative to the "default" CW dropdeck should give an idea what is needed. I'm not saying it should be what a totally new player should be using (at best, they are filler for what you don't have in your mechlab).

[Night Thastus]

I wonder if you were the guys we fought last night. Had one match that was 48-24. We were mostly clan pugs, they were mostly IS pugs.

For pugs, ours actually seemed to focus fire decently well. Yours trickled in rather than doing large pushes, or doing dual-pushes. Or just sit by the gate and poke-trade. Some of your guys started trading long-range with us mid match, and that really threw us off. If we hadn't been agressive, we could've easily lost our advantage (we were only up 8 at the time).

However, that really doesn't matter. Boreal sucks to attack on. Just period. I've tried to attack it in clan PUGS, in clan 12-mans, etc, etc ,etc. It never goes well. It absolutely sucks. Boreal is a defenders map. Huge firing lines, very cold, no real cover. They need to fix it big time.

[WANTED]

Thastus is right. It's a tough map no matter what side due to the advantages of the defenders, layout and cold. I think they designed it for the attackers to be shielded going up that left side but usually defenders just have a couple overlooking the trench and poke shot down on the attackers as well as give LRM boats some targets. Then they will push up your rear and shred your lines advancing up the ramp toward the defenders near the gens and omega. I think some sort of redesign is in order on that map like the others that have high cliffs and only jumping lights get a shot off.

Edited by WANTED, 27 November 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[Davegt27]

Lol spent 15 min typing a response on crap tablet only to not have it post

Oh well

[sdsnowbum]

It's definitely a defender's map that's punishes attackers for any mistake.

A team has to be better than average to push through successfully. Combine this with the mentality that you win in CW only by organized pushing (which may have been true a year ago when CW started) and you have this type of lopsided match again and again.

Really PUG teams need to have the attitude of 'oh it's Boreal, let me settle in on our side of the gates for 30 minute sniping contest'.

But that takes even MORE discipline than a PUG push (ragged and ineffectual though it will be). So I don't think it will ever happen.

[sdsnowbum]

Prussian Havoc, on 27 November 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

Using my Inner Spere Alternate Account and when Defending (thus Counterattacking) it is always a mixed bag where IS Defenders are almost always on the short end of the stick just as you describe. That is why even when I solo-drop, I prefer to go on the attack whenever possible. The likelihood of dropping with Well-experienced fellow Solo-gamers or small to mid-size groups is far greater thus there is a greater likelihood of excellent gunnery and common tactics.

But when offensive operations are not available and I drop in Defence of an Inner Sphere world on Boreal, I always champion the left push with my fellow Solo-gamers. It is a two-stage push, first to the mid-point and then secondly to the ravine just short of the ramp up to the base, and then a crawl across that ravine.

If during the wait to drop, enough IS Defenders agree to bring ECM Mechs (a couple per wave.) and if each Solo-gamer agrees to counterattack in four distinct waves (and not trickle in, one Mech at a time.) Then there is the bare glimmer of a chance the counter attack will work. The left hand lane forces Clan Mechs to silhouette themselves on the ridge at relatively close range thus playing to IS strengths and lessening the Clan laser advantages. And by controlling the rate of advance up the left lane, those Clan Mechs that decide to act as a "cork in the bottle" for the lane, can be brought under fire one or two at a time as they appear from the right edge of the lane.

A key aspect of each of the four waves is aggression and good short to mid range gunnery (Long Range Trading with base defenders who can just hunker down if they are halfway proficient just won't work.) One of the most important aspects is Wave Mortality - the intent is not to take so few chances that your first Mech lasts 15 to 20 minutes. Such actions "unhinge" wave integrity, lessening potential results and generally making success unlikely.

And finally the push laterally in the ravine just prior to the ramp opens remaining Clan Mechs to fire from Multiple angles, thus slowly cracking any Clan Strongpoints among Boreal's base.

Does that work all the time?

No.

Does that work most of the time?

No.

Does that work just enough of the time to keep hope of victory well nestled in Pandora's Boreal Vault?

Yes!
(Of course it is all so much easier to suggest the above if VOIP is working! )

Awesome post.

[Hailfire]

Appogee, on 27 November 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

All of my teams were solo IS PUGs. All of our opponents were medium size Clan premades. All the matches were fairly one-sided losses.

surprise! a coordinated premade team beats an uncoordinated non premade team. wow, who would have guessed?
In all seriousness though, this is more of a problem in matchmaking than anything else. In most online games, premades play against other premades and pugs play against other pugs; the two simply don't mix well. It is an obvious and insane advantage when a team can coordinate their drops, not to mention that a premade team generally have the whole team using voip (or skype/teamspeak in some cases). MWO is a team game where winning depends on each individual team member to do their part; you can implement all the strategy you want but you'll never be able to carry your team to a victory on your own. This issue can only be fixed by limiting the number of premade players who can group in a single match, or separating the group players from the solo players.

[zortesh]

Dropcalling and coordinated dropdecks give anyone a absolutely massive advantage.

now if its uncoordinated and no syncing of dropdecks ill probably put my money on clans 9 times outta ten, they tend to boat lasers, and they all tend to move a similar speed which makes accidental coordination easier.

But in semi coordinated i feel its more even, you don't have to engage at longrange, you can stay low and then charge once you've closed in, and is mechs are much better in drawn out brawls then clans are, with a few exceptions.

Clans do have a range advantage on average, but there are excetions, no clan sniper holds a candle to the 4erll blr-1s or the 4 erll tdr-5ss, both of which have 912m range on erll when modulated out, high hardpoints, and excellent heat managment.

that said i do feel it is much easyier to get horribly clashing ineffective mixes of mechs when playing spheroid pugs.

[AssaultPig]

IS have it rough attacking boreal, because clan defenders can pretty easily force you into a mid-range engagement where their weapons dominate.

Assuming both teams are operating at the same rough level of coordination (i.e. you don't have a team of long range traders, or the clanners aren't dumb enough to let you make those trades), your best bet imo is to try and rush and turn it into a brawl. If you can kill a few mechs quickly and get early leverage with a good push, you can hold onto that for a bit and turn it into a decisive advantage. But it's tough to get a pub group to commit.

[Aiden Skye]

Attacking as pugs vs IS is pretty bad as clan too. When the IS is outranging you with battlemastes and what ever else is quirked for range. Then you have people bringing direwolves on attack and half the team is composed LRM boats standing around waiting or locks. That's just PUG life. And attacking as a pug is not easy, especially on boreal. Many times when I see boreal vault come up I go for a more mobile drop deck using shadow cats and lights...maybe 1 heavy.. I prefer mobility when attacking boreal for sure.

[Mordin Ashe]

If you struggle with range, bring ERPPC or ERLL. ERPPC>CERPPC, ERLL>CERLL. Simple as that, and you still have quirks playing for you.

On Boreal attacking against IS is hell. They can kill you in 20 seconds with their ERLLs and they bring tons of them (as they should because they are great weapons). Solution? Get up close. You have the E6 (or whatever square it is) line that is completely covered. You go there and boom, you are in close range fights for the rest of match. Clans can't outbrawl IS and on every map there is a way of getting to the enemy without taking too much damage.

Are IS pugs capable of that? Most aren't, which is why I do my pugging in Clans, not IS. But it is a way and IS pugs have to learn it. You have both top range and brawling advantages, where you loose is that mid range gap. Either stay away or get in. Half-solutions don't work.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 30 November 2015 - 06:19 AM.