16 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

So looking at Various Engines & Equipment i had an Idea,
what if we Gave Certain Engines Bonuses to Help with their Use,
helping Both Sub250 Engines STD Engines IS-XLs and Even CASE,
(this idea is based on the Clan Targeting Computers & Quriks they give)


=First= Sub250 Engines=
the First 10DHS stored in the Engine have 0.2 Heat Displacement,
However Engines under 250 Rating Store less than 10HS in the Engine,
so Mechs with Ratings 100-245 lose out on some Heat Displacement,
-
So My Idea is to give All those Engines Quirks that will Compensate,
=IS 200STD Engine=

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CEngineStats" name="Engine_Std_200" id="3238">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\StdEngine.dds" descTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_200_desc" nameTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_200"/>
<EngineStats health="15" heatsinks="8" weight="11.5" rating="200" sidesToDie="0" sideSlots="0" slots="6"/>
<If (heatsinks<"10") MechStats Cooling="(10-heatsinks) *0.6"/>
</Module>

this Means is if you have a 200Engine, your Mech will gain 0.12 Bonus Cooling,
(DHS in Engine has 0.2Cooling, DHS outside have 0.14, so Bonus 0.06 x2),
i beleve this would solve the PoorDubs Problem in Sub250 Engines,


=Next= STD Engines=
with IIC mechs coming out Many wonder how PGI will Balance C-XL Engines,
so thinking on this i came up with a solution to Buff All(IS&Clan) STD Engines,
Wail also not Increasing their Mobility or Decreasing their Weight,
-
So give All STD Equipped Mechs CT Internal Structure Bonuses,
=IS 250STD Engine=

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CEngineStats" name="Engine_Std_250" id="3248">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\StdEngine.dds" descTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_250_desc" nameTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_250"/>
<EngineStats health="15" heatsinks="10" weight="18.5" rating="250" sidesToDie="0" sideSlots="0" slots="6"/>
<MechStats AddStructure(CT)="16"/>
</Module>

this Means All STD Engines, Will have a +16CT Internal Structure Bonus,
i beleave this would Help Give C-STD Engines a Distinct Advantage over C-XLs,
as well as Give IS-STD Engines more Survivability that what they have Currently,


=Then= IS-XL Engines=
with IS mechs their is a term, XL-Friendly, meaning They are good with XLs,
this usually means these Mechs have Hitboxes that make Protecting Sides easier,
so with this i came up with a solution to Buff IS XLs, Not C-XLs as per Balance,
-
So give All XL Equipped Mechs Internal Structure Bonuses,
=IS 250STD Engine=

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CEngineStats" name="Engine_XL_250" id="3348">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\XLEngine.dds" descTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_250_desc" nameTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_250"/>
<EngineStats health="15" heatsinks="10" weight="12.5" rating="250" sidesToDie="1" sideSlots="3" slots="6"/>
<MechStats AddStructure(LT)="8"/>
<MechStats AddStructure(RT)="8"/>
</Module>

this Means All XL Engines, Will have a +8ST Internal Structure Bonus,
i believe this Change would Help Make more IS Mechs XL Friendly,
and also give a good Counter to the STD Buff Above this,


=Finally= CASE(IS)=
At this Time there's not much Reason to take 0.5Ton CASE,
Yes, it stops Ammo Explosion Damage Transfer From ST to CT,
other than that if you need Tonnage its almost Always the First thing to go,
-
So why not give Case its Own Internal Structure Bonuses as well,
=IS CASE=

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CCASEStats" name="CASE" id="9003">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\CASE.dds" descTag="@CASE_desc" nameTag="@CASE"/>
<ModuleStats health="0" tons="0.5" slots="1" amountAllowed="1" components="right_torso, left_torso"/>
<If (left_torso) MechStats AddStructure(LT)="6"/>
<If (right_torso) MechStats AddStructure(RT)="6"/>
</Module>

this Means CASE will Give you a +6Internal Structure to the Side its placed in,
Giving CASE new Life as a XL Buffer, and to Aid in making Mechs Tankier,
as well as Doing its Original Purpose of Stopping Damage Transfer,


=CODE=
All XML Code was Scripted By Me(Andi Nagasia),
And based on other XML Code(TC1 CASE STD200 DHS Ect)
Please Remember that all Coding Stats Can Change for Balance
Special Thanks to Mcgral for the Initial XML Code


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Spelling
Edit2- Increased Stats
Edit3- Refined Stats
Edit4- (working on Full Rework)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 March 2016 - 02:27 PM.

[Mcgral18]

As seen with the BJs (and 1500HP Atlas), significant structure (or armour) quirks can make a difference, but +5 tend to be insignificant in the grand scheme of things.


Heat dissipation quirks would be a wonderful solution to the PoorDubs.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

That's rather clever. Well done.

[Andi Nagasia]

Mcgral18, on 03 December 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

As seen with the BJs (and 1500HP Atlas), significant structure (or armour) quirks can make a difference, but +5 tend to be insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Heat dissipation quirks would be a wonderful solution to the PoorDubs.

Have Increased some of the Values (5 to 8) (8 to 12) (12 to 16),

Narcissistic Martyr, on 04 December 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

That's rather clever. Well done.

I Try, Hopefully we can see this in the Next PTS, Please PGI!

[Durant Carlyle]

I will never support any buff to the CT when equipping standard engines. They simply don't need it.

You still need to convince me that Inner Sphere XLs need buffs, but +12 to each is too high in any case. The heaviest lights only have 8 internal structure in the R/L Torsos, and even the CT only has 11 (base stats before existing quirks). You'd have 100% more crying that lights are OP.

This is coming from someone who prefers to pilot Inner Sphere lights, every single one of which has an XL engine. I'm a mediocre pilot and I can make assault pilots cry now. Imagine what I could do with a huge buff to ST health...

[Matthew Ace]

Durant Carlyle, on 04 December 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I will never support any buff to the CT when equipping standard engines. They simply don't need it.

You still need to convince me that Inner Sphere XLs need buffs, but +12 to each is too high in any case. The heaviest lights only have 8 internal structure in the R/L Torsos, and even the CT only has 11 (base stats before existing quirks). You'd have 100% more crying that lights are OP.

This is coming from someone who prefers to pilot Inner Sphere lights, every single one of which has an XL engine. I'm a mediocre pilot and I can make assault pilots cry now. Imagine what I could do with a huge buff to ST health...

As a player who uses XL on even 'Mechs like Awesomes, I like IS XL where they are; tradeoff in survivability for increased speed or larger weapon payload (or otherwise, free tonnage utilised for something else).

I would just like to correct you that MWO base internals are doubled from TT, so 35 ton 'Mechs actually 22 Internals in CT and 16 Internals in LT/RT before any quirks.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 04 December 2015 - 07:10 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Durant Carlyle, on 04 December 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I will never support any buff to the CT when equipping standard engines. They simply don't need it.

You still need to convince me that Inner Sphere XLs need buffs, but +12 to each is too high in any case. The heaviest lights only have 8 internal structure in the R/L Torsos, and even the CT only has 11 (base stats before existing quirks). You'd have 100% more crying that lights are OP.

This is coming from someone who prefers to pilot Inner Sphere lights, every single one of which has an XL engine. I'm a mediocre pilot and I can make assault pilots cry now. Imagine what I could do with a huge buff to ST health...

Why a STD CT Structure Buff? well to Buff IS abit more and give Clan Players a Reason to Take C-STDs,
Why a IS-XL ST Structure Buff? Again to Buff IS some and make more IS Mechs XL Friendly,

But WHY? Because as long as C-XLs dont Die on ST loss People will always Complain about them,
This gives IS-XLs an Distinct Advantage that C-XLs just dont have wail also Aiding Balance,

[Davegt27]

I think a town hall question asked about this
Russ indicated they would be concerned about other Mechs might gain a benefit that they did not for see

Another idea would be to code light Mechs with a different type of engine by putting a letter behind the resourse code
That way if a medium IS Mechs wanted to use a small engine they would not pick up an unintended benefit

Of course I don't know if cryengine resource code would allow additional number or letter

[Matthew Ace]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 December 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

Why a STD CT Structure Buff? well to Buff IS abit more and give Clan Players a Reason to Take C-STDs,
Why a IS-XL ST Structure Buff? Again to Buff IS some and make more IS Mechs XL Friendly,

But WHY? Because as long as C-XLs dont Die on ST loss People will always Complain about them,
This gives IS-XLs an Distinct Advantage that C-XLs just dont have wail also Aiding Balance,

If we must explore a solution over XL Engines needing to be less handicapping..

For IS XL and Clan XL Fusion Engines (and in the distant future - IS Light Fusion Engines), I would much rather explore a solution revolving around all 'Mechs having their torsos further divided into upper and lower halves. This is what I had thought of so far. Feel free to poke holes in the idea so we may revise it (refer to spoiler).

Spoiler

• Equipping 'Mechs in Mechlab would still function the same as now
  
  • However, critical allocation (as in the slots) to upper or lower halves of a torso in terms of combat would assume the upper and lower halves to have space for 6 critical slot and also be based on where the hardpoints are allocated.
    
    • Take a Hunchback 4G for example, it has 3 Ballistic Hardpoints on Right Torso. A way to implement this would be such that those Ballistic Hardpoints are located on Upper Right Torso, and each of its ballistic weapon will always take up at least 1 critical slot in that area as such. Where there are more than 6 criticals used by the ballistic weapons, the rest of the criticals are considered to be allocated to the Lower Right Torso.
• Internals and Allocated Armor in Mechlab function the same as now; values apply to both Upper and lower halves of torso, however, so if you have 20 (Rear 10) armor allocated to Left Torso, your Upper Left Torso will have 20 (Rear 10) and Lower Left Torso will have 20 (Rear 10).
  
• For definition purpose, the Upper Side Torso in this idea is always defined as the part of torso with the Shoulder joined to it; destroying the Upper Side Torso will blow off the adjacent arm. The Lower Side Torso is... well, self explanatory right?
  
• Damage Transfer / Component Destruction:
  
  • Hitting a destroyed Upper Side Torso will result in damage transfer to Upper CT, and correspondingly, hitting a destroyed Lower Side Torso will result in damage transfer to Lower CT.
    
  • Destroying either Upper Side Torso or Lower Side Torso will destroy the 'Mech
    
  • Here's the juicy part (IS XL / Clan XL / IS LFE):
    
    • (Part 1 - IS XL): Destroying 1 of the upper or lower side torso will destroy 2 engine crits and result in the same effect as destroying a side torso on a clan mech loaded with XL engine. Destroying 2 of the upper or lower side torso will destroy it.
      
    • (Part 2 - Clan XL): All Clan 'Mechs have their Side Torso Engine criticals located in the Lower Side Torso. Destroy 1 of the lower side torso to cause the current effect of destroying the side torso of a Clan 'mech equipped with XL engine. Likewise destroying both lower side torsos takes out that 'Mech.
      
      • If hitboxes are a concern (in that it may make the 'Mech too durable), the lower side torsos can always be made to take up more of the side torso for that particular 'Mech overall.
    • (Part 3 - Room for expansion - IS Light Fusion Engine): Upper Side Torsos and Lower Side Torsos contain 1 engine critical slot each; you need to destroy 3 of these components to take out a 'Mech equipped with IS Light Fusion Engine by side torsos destruction.
      
    • (Part 4 - Bonus; Fusion XXL - won't be available for a long lonnggggggg time): Destroying any of the 4 side torso components takes out that 'Mech (i.e. exactly how taking out a 'Mech with IS XL Engine works now with the exception that having more hitboxes and components may make focused damage harder)

• An area for concern is possibly making Standard Engine even less useful than how it is now and that's the fatal flaw if we want to continue to have more incentives for Standard Engines. Taking a page from Fusion XXL (it takes up 6 criticals on a side torso and generates heat even when not moving!), maybe less heat from movement?

Edited by Matthew Ace, 05 December 2015 - 08:39 PM.

[Night Thastus]

Case is 0.5ton, not 1 ton. As well, the structure bonus is actually a nice touch. Makes sense. I'd assume since Clan CASE doesn't take up any tonnage, it shouldn't provide that bonus.

[Khobai]

The engine structure buffs should be based on the engine rating. Heavier engines have higher density thus should get a bigger buff.

That way the buff is proportional and lights get a smaller buff than assaults since they typically use smaller engines

Edited by Khobai, 05 December 2015 - 08:48 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 05 December 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

The buffs should be based on the engine rating. Heavier engines have higher density thus a bigger buff.

That way the buff is proportional and lights get a smaller buff since they use smaller engines

Oh joy, another reason to install the biggest possible engine...

[Khobai]

Not really since engine tonnage goes up exponentially while rating goes up linearly

There would still be a sweet spot at 300-325

And only std engines should get a structure buff

Isxl needs to be the same as Cxl. Both should survive st destruction.

And the dumb 20% speed penalty on Cxl needs to be removed since it makes too many clan mechs like the executioner worthless. There's better ways to Nerf the op clan mechs that wont also nerf the bad ones.

Edited by Khobai, 05 December 2015 - 08:54 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 05 December 2015 - 08:49 PM, said:

Not really since engine tonnage goes up exponentially while rating goes up linearly

There would still be a sweet spot at 300-325

I'm referring to how we already have plenty of incentives like more engine heatsink slots and higher agility, and that we really don't need any more than that...

Edited by FupDup, 05 December 2015 - 08:52 PM.

[Khobai]

Well turning speed and torso twist speed should be decoupled from engine rating. Turning speed and torso twist speed should be entirely based on tonnage and quirks rather than engine size. That's the proper way to nerf mechs like the timberwolf instead of the dumb 20% nerf that made subpar clan mechs completely useless.

But a 400 std engine should definitely give a bigger structure buff than a 300 std engine because the weight difference is massive. Since engine weight goes up exponentially there needs to be more incentive to use the upper range engines (350-400) instead of engines in the sweet spot range (300-325). Again this only applies to std engines not xl.

Edited by Khobai, 05 December 2015 - 09:11 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 05 December 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

But a 400 std engine should definitely give a bigger structure buff than a 300 std engine because the weight difference is massive. Since engine weight goes up exponentially there needs to be more incentive to use the upper range engines (350-400) instead of engines in the sweet spot range (300-325). Again this only applies to std engines not xl.

Working on the Maths to try to get something like that to work, (Loading Please Wait)

[Andi Nagasia]

as with all the Talk about STD and XL Engines and Their Balance,
i couldnt bring my self to Create another Topic, so im reworking this Topic,
i feel it is once again relevant, i will be taking your thoughts in this rework?

Thanks,