23 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

I've been playing on and off since beta, and just recently came back.

I just bought a Hunchback 4G today, and this is the build I'm running.
Please feel free to critique it.

Currently running:

Ferro Fibrous Armor
Endo-Steel

Standard Engine- 200 (Stock Engine)
3 STD Heat Sinks in the legs.

3 Small Pulse Lasers
1 Machine gun with 2 tons of ammo.
2 AC/2's with 4.5 tons of ammo.
AMS with 1 ton of AMS ammo.
C.A.S.E

Maxxed armor, 50/50 tons weight capacity.


I'm getting an average of 200-300 damage per game, and get 1 or 2 killing blows.
The most damage I've done in a game so far in a single game was 525.
(Please tell me if this is too low, I read somewhere that people should be doing 800 damage, but I don't know if that applies to medium mechs.)

My playstyle is to hold back in the beginning of match, and drill people long range with the dual AC/2's. Once the match is well underway and people start getting their armor damaged, I move in and take them down with the 3 Pulse lasers and Machine gun.

I am winning the majority of my games, and usually surviving till the end, or close to it.
Let me know what you think.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 02 January 2016 - 05:35 AM.

[Ryokens leap]

Click the community tab in header bar, open Mechspecs and have a look at those hunchie builds. Ferro is useful on only a handful of builds, upgrade to double heatsinks, one machine gun is near to useless and u have too much mg ammo. There also is a sight called Smurfys Mechlab where u can work on builds in a virtual mechlab. Without seeing ur full build and firepower/ heat #s it is difficult to say how effective ur loadout is.

[feeWAIVER]

Ryokens leap, on 02 January 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

Click the community tab in header bar, open Mechspecs and have a look at those hunchie builds. Ferro is useful on only a handful of builds, upgrade to double heatsinks, one machine gun is near to useless and u have too much mg ammo. There also is a sight called Smurfys Mechlab where u can work on builds in a virtual mechlab. Without seeing ur full build and firepower/ heat #s it is difficult to say how effective ur loadout is.

I did review some guides, but I don't want to copy/paste a mech from a guide that could very possibly be outdated.

I don't really want to use an AC/20 because of weight. It doesn't utilize the other ballistic slots I could have in my machine. Also it's short range and has limited ammo capacity.

With 2 AC/2's I can pop off rapid firing 4pts of damage at 900 range. They are accurate and fast, and I really like to assist big mechs that are brawling with an enemy with them.

I guess I missed some armor in my legs, I had 40 armor per leg.
I just dropped 1 ton of machine gun ammo, and half a ton of ac/2 ammo.
Replaced it with a full ton of ac/2 ammo and filled out my leg armor...

so new stats:

Total Weight- 49.9/50 tons

Armor- 338/338

Firepower- 20/250.
Like I said, I am doing an average of 200-300 damage per match, peaked so far at 525 in 1 match.
I usually get 1 or 2 killing blows, and often get 1 Most Damage score on a single mech.

Heat- 1.12/2
Heat isn't an issue for me. I don't feel like I need double heat sinks, nor do I have the room for them.
AC/2s are heavy for my little mech, and I need a lot of ammo for them.


Speed- 64.8/43.1
I would like a faster mech, but I don't feel it's absolutely needed.
My other Hunchback has a standard 275 engine and double heatsinks, but it's a 4P laser vomit model.
I feel like this one is okay being a little slower.


Ferro FIbrous
Endo Steel
Standard Heat Sinks.

The FF armor and Endo Steel only net met like 4 extra tons, but I need them if I'm going to be rocking the AC/2s.
Standard Heat Sinks, like I said, seem fine. Heat isn't a real issue, and I don't have the capicity for doubles.


*Other notes-
On the machine gun- I tried using 3 AC/2's but it was too much weight, and I couldn't stock as much ammo.
The Machine gun is light, and it assists my pulse lasers at a similar optimal range.
When an enemy mech has a broken shell, I feel like the Machine gun is doing work, but I could be wrong.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 02 January 2016 - 01:40 PM.

[Leone]

So, Machine guns. Machine guns do do some work, but most folk prefer to torso twist to extend thier own mechs rather than maintain facetime for just one machine gun. Now, three or four machine guns, an you start getting some decent damage in there. However, with the rapid fire rate of the Ac2s your already gonna be maintaining a firing solution, so it doesn't really hurt.

As for weight restrictions, you could always look into smaller engines but that way lies madness and fun.

~Leone.

[epikt]

feeWAIVER, on 02 January 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

3 STD Heat Sinks in the legs.

Upgrade that to Double heat-sinks.
DHS are a requirement for 99.86% of the builds and this one is no exception.

I must insist: please don't be penny-pinching on the HDS, consider it a 1.5M taxe on ALL your inner sphere mechs.

I'm personally not fond of the AC/2 on Hunchbacks. The hunch is very fragile, you must defend it at all cost and it will be your enemies' primary target. The best way to protect your hunch is to torso-twist and use your left side as a shield, but you can't do this while firing AC/2s that require face-time.
You'll do want you want and enjoy, but you should try the AC/20. This mech is made for this weapon.

But if you keep the AC/2, I'd discard the machinegun, a single machingun is just useless - 1.5 wasted ton.
I Also found the SPLas choice weird, and in contradiction with an AC/2 oriented build: AC/2 are mid/long range, you don't want to be at the range where your small pulses are useful. I'd recomend standard medium lasers instead.
(something like that)

[feeWAIVER]

Leone, on 02 January 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

So, Machine guns. Machine guns do do some work, but most folk prefer to torso twist to extend thier own mechs rather than maintain facetime for just one machine gun. Now, three or four machine guns, an you start getting some decent damage in there. However, with the rapid fire rate of the Ac2s your already gonna be maintaining a firing solution, so it doesn't really hurt.

As for weight restrictions, you could always look into smaller engines but that way lies madness and fun.

~Leone.

Hmm... I could look into smaller engines, and I will check it out when I get a chance.
I really hate to sacrifice more speed, but if the math is right, maybe I will try it.

epikt, on 02 January 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

Upgrade that to Double heat-sinks.
DHS are a requirement for 99.86% of the builds and this one is no exception.

I must insist: please don't be penny-pinching on the HDS, consider it a 1.5M taxe on ALL your inner sphere mechs.

I'm personally not fond of the AC/2 on Hunchbacks. The hunch is very fragile you must defend it at all cost and it will be your enemies' primary target. The best way to protect your hunch is to torso-twist and use your left side as a shield, but you can't do this while firing AC/2s that require face-time.
You'll do want you want and enjoy, but you should try the AC/20. This mech is made for this weapon.

But if you keep the AC/2, I'd discard the machinegun, a single machingun is just useless - 1.5 wasted ton.
I Also found the SPLas choice weird, and in contradiction with an AC/2 oriented build: AC/2 are mid/long range, you don't want to be at the range where your small pulses are useful. I'd recomend standard medium lasers instead.
(something like that)

Normally I would agree with the DHS statement, I have DHS on every other mech I run..
But on this one, I don't feel I need or even have space for DHS for what I'm trying to do with the mech.

The hunch is fragile, I agree, and that's why I want to avoid brawling short range with it. I can poke over a cliff and drill 4,8,12,16 damage into an engaged enemy from 900m before they have a chance to react.

As for the SPLas and MG, that's probably why I am able to get away with having such few heat synchs.
I play mostly long range, but I have the ability to rush from behind LOS to assist a heavy ally who is in a furball with an enemy, and that's how I get my killing blows. The MG and SPLa have comparable ranges, so I keep them bound to the same key. They are kind of like a side-arm to my main weapon, which is the AC/2's.

Granted, there have been matches that I have been caught off guard and gibbed after only 70 damage done.. but for the most part I can do 200-300 dmg a match.. Is this an acceptable amount of damage?

Edited by feeWAIVER, 02 January 2016 - 09:36 PM.

[epikt]

feeWAIVER, on 02 January 2016 - 09:34 PM, said:

Normally I would agree with the DHS statement, I have DHS on every other mech I run..
But on this one, I don't feel I need or even have space for DHS for what I'm trying to do with the mech.

It's because you are not using your mech at its full potential. Heat is a resource, you need to use it. Basically, an upgrade to DHS doubles your potential fire-power, who'd say no?

That's the problem I have with your SPLas + MG. If everything is fine, if you're able to keep the position you want, you won't use them.
I don't know if you come from the board game, where builds are very "jacks of all trades" ; but in MWO it's way more efficient to build mechs to be effective at a specific range, with a coherent weapon loadout, and work your positioning to force the engagement at the range you're comfortable.
That's why I' go for 2 AC/2s and 3 MLas: it would be a mid range support, with some abilities at long range. But at mid range, you'll be able to use both your ACs and lasers, that's what you want. At 300ish meters, the MLas will give you something like 80% more damage output.

Quote

Granted, there have been matches that I have been caught off guard and gibbed after only 70 damage done.. but for the most part I can do 200-300 dmg a match.. Is this an acceptable amount of damage?

Quote

I read somewhere that people should be doing 800 damage, but I don't know if that applies to medium mechs.

It's acceptable, but still low. If everybody in the team deals 200-300ish damage, you'll probably lose, except if it's very focussed damage.
But don't worry to much about that. Higher damage will come with experience. Granted your build is able to deliver, of course.
People should not be doing 800dmg. If every member of the team is performing evenly and win, the damage is usually between 300 and 500 (depending on focus). Dealing 800 damage is carrying the team. It certainly applies to medium mechs too, it applies to all classes, even in a Locust you can carry your team with 1000 damage.

[Eaerie]

I don't like the AC2's on a hunchback either. To much face time where you expose that hunch way to long in order to deliver your damage. your rapid firing 4pt damage will make who you are shooting to turn towards you and unload a volley to try and make you back down and in those cases you will lose that exchange.
As for damage a match, for me it depends a lot on my mech and loadout so it ranges from 200 to 500damage for me. If i can get 200+damage in my light mech packing 2mlas and an srm4 i feel i did good damage but i also do a lot of scouting and playing squirrel in that mech, which really doesn't show as damage done but disruption factor can be a game changer.

[Leone]

My Personal Favourite HBK-4G. I feel the slight loss of speed is acceptable for the increase in fire power. Also, so much more dakka in that build. The dual uac5 armament is a favourite of mine.

~Leone.

[feeWAIVER]

Leone, on 03 January 2016 - 10:22 PM, said:

My Personal Favourite HBK-4G. I feel the slight loss of speed is acceptable for the increase in fire power. Also, so much more dakka in that build. The dual uac5 armament is a favourite of mine.

~Leone.

No C.A.S.E? Won't your ammo explode and kill you?
Also no AMS, isn't that troublesome to be without?

[Mannson]

I also vouch for Dual UACs. My build has less backup weapons than Leone's but more speed. The thing is to know when to dakka and when to either take cover or torsotwist your left side to tank that damage.

AMS can be extremely useful, but still optional as with true hunchbacks you never want to be out in open with your hunch exposed so you either cover your assault or/and heavy or find a good rock to hide behind.

[Dakkaface]

feeWAIVER, on 02 January 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

I just bought a Hunchback 4G today, and this is the build I'm running.
Please feel free to critique it.

Ferro Fibrous Armor
Endo-Steel

Standard Engine- 200 (Stock Engine)
3 STD Heat Sinks in the legs.

3 Small Pulse Lasers
1 Machine gun with 2 tons of ammo.
2 AC/2's with 4.5 tons of ammo.
AMS with 1 ton of AMS ammo.
C.A.S.E

Maxxed armor, 50/50 tons weight capacity.

Ferro is generally waste unless you have literally nothing else to do with the space.

STD 200 is short 2 heat sinks for having 10 internals, and is slow. Go up to at least 225. 250 rating is kind of the gold zone, but in order to fit an AC/20 or multiple smaller AC's, some sacrifice will have to be made.

Do not use Single Heatsinks. Doubles are a straight upgrade. Just swapping this to doubles will make it go from 11 dissipation to over 20. Singles in the legs will give you a minimal bonus when you are standing in water, but doubles will help you all the time.

AMS is of limited utility. Sometimes it helps in the QP queue, but you are just as likely to have ECM support or other guys with AMS there. Also, once you get Radar Deprivation, it's use falls off since you can just step behind cover and the missiles will lose lock. I prefer no AMS, but if you want to blow the 1.5 tons on it, go ahead.

That is a LOT of ammo, so CASE is a good thing, but I generally run without it because I can blow through most of my ammo early.

MG and Small pulse are very close in weapons for something that's going to spend most of it's time lobbing shells at 800+ meters. Personally I'd not waste the 1.5 tons on the MG, and I prefer mediums on the HBK-4G over small pulses.

I really dislike AC/2's. The heat curve isn't phenomenal, and they require a lot of face time. But they do give you range. Just keep in mind that facetime so you don't eat Gauss counterfire into your primary weapon hunch.

feeWAIVER, on 02 January 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

I'm getting an average of 200-300 damage per game, and get 1 or 2 killing blows.
The most damage I've done in a game so far in a single game was 525.
(Please tell me if this is too low, I read somewhere that people should be doing 800 damage, but I don't know if that applies to medium mechs.)

My playstyle is to hold back in the beginning of match, and drill people long range with the dual AC/2's. Once the match is well underway and people start getting their armor damaged, I move in and take them down with the 3 Pulse lasers and Machine gun.

I am winning the majority of my games, and usually surviving till the end, or close to it.
Let me know what you think.

Well, it's a completely different style of play from most HBK-4G's, so there's that. Most will try to leverage the monster AC/20 quirks on it and play as a brawler or skirmisher. This is my personal build: HBK-4G: Nob-blaster I use both AC/20 weapon modules, Radar Derp and Seismic Sensor.

This is just a hair too slow to really skirmish, but has decent enough maneuverability to be able to do it. It can pop out, and usually fire the AC/20 twice in the time it takes the target to fire one volley, and then pop back. That's only 28 shots of AC/20 ammo, so the first 7 peek-a-boo moments usually depletes the torso ammo before the armor goes. 3 mediums is a bit hot for use in conjunction with the AC/20, but when the ammo goes they're a better all-around option than smalls or pulses - and they're much more capable for downing UAV's.

It's a tough little machine and armor rolling is of limited utility with the big hunch, but the added armor and structure there really help, and the face time on getting a single shot off is very low. I usually manage 300-500 damage and a 2 kill minimum with the Nob-blaster so long as I actually get into dickpunching range. Alpine and similar maps are it's bane for the lack of good approach lanes with cover as well as a lack of LRM cover.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Okay, so you like having some punch at range. You like that MGs, and your inner completionist screams to fill all the available weapon hard points. You like the pulse lasers. And you like AMS. Sound about right so far?

I give you, the HBK-4G for you. We're up to TWO MGs now, which MIGHT actually be worthwhile if you catch a cored and shut-down mech up close. It keeps the medium pulse lasers. It keeps the AMS, too, because you're right--LRMs ARE making a slow comeback. And the UAC/5? Well, it's not QUITE as long-range as the AC/2s. But it's still going to rind some bells at the edge of your mech's unassisted sensor range, and even WITHOUT the ULTRA thing, it does more damage PER HIT than a pair of AC/2s. Until it jams, it can keep pace with the AC/2 pair for DPS. The AMS ammo in the side torso? Well, you either face LURMY DEATH or you don't. If you DO, then you'll probably be out of ammo before it becomes an issue. If not, well, AMS ammo isn't THAT deadly for an explosion. But you're not under ECM a lot, I figure, so why not? So, put the three MPLs on one button, the UAC/5 on another, and the MGs on a third (preferably set up to toggle on/off). ONLY use the MGs when it's safe to face-hug your enemy, or if you're REALLY just out of other weapons. OR as a desperation move to finish off a tough enemy. Otherwise, they're paper weights. The build is pretty heat efficient. It uses DHS anyhow, because WE FREAKIN' SAID SO. Might be manageable with SHS, but do the doubles anyhow, because the 3 critical slots per mean MORE CRIT PADDING, BABY! YEAH!

Or, ditch ALL the other weapons and AMS, and do dual-UAC/5. Mo Dakka!

Or, really, just go with the AC/20 builds, because that's what this mech is SUPPOSED to be anyhow, and it actually does surprise AC/20 facehug pretty well once you learn it.

AND NO FERRO FIBROUS ARMOR!

[Leone]

feeWAIVER, on 05 January 2016 - 12:03 AM, said:

No C.A.S.E? Won't your ammo explode and kill you?
Also no AMS, isn't that troublesome to be without?

Yes, every once in a while, I die to an ammo explosion. Very rare though. Thing is, For my ammo to explode, I'll need to've taken ten damage to an exposed component. The only component that I can case I placed ammo in also has all the weaponry that matters. If I've lost it, do I really want to live? Or maybe I lose my legs. Doesn;t happen too often, but a good light pilot'll often aim for em.

Thing is, that case? That eats up precious precious tonnage. and I've had more matches where I ran dry than I exploded.

As for AMS, well, that mech was designed for Solo Queue, not Community Warfare. It's not meant to play well with others.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 23 January 2016 - 09:09 AM.

[Neput Z34]

◘ First of all, Ferro-Fibrous Armor, is not a complete waste of space, more on that later.

◘ Second, C.A.S.E. is a waste of space and tonnage. Learn to hide ammo in the parts of a mech that don't get shot at, or "crit pad" it better.

◘ Third, the AC20 quirk is too good to ignore.

HBK-4G "optimal" build. This is not "end all be all builds" but a good general build that could be tweaked to personal preference.

8 tons Ferro-Fiberous Armor on this particular build offers same* armor protection as 9 tons of Standard Armor.
*(2points difference, 286 FF vs. 288 Standard armor)

As for 2x UAC-5, there are better suited mechs for that, like a Shadow Hawk SHD-5M or an Enforcer ENF-5P
(look at the mech quirks before "hammering a round peg into a square hole" )

♦ Please remember that "Speed is Life and Armor is Insurance".
♦ If you are being rained on by LRM boats, you made a tactical error or your "cover" sucks.
♦ Safety in numbers, no amount of armor is going to save you from a light swarm or focused enemy fire.

[feeWAIVER]

I just want to thank you all for your advice.
As an update to how I'm doing now, here is a screenshot of the score after I game I just left.
I'm pretty happy with it.

http://s1034.photobu...uymdiy.jpg.html

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Any combination of AC20 and STD250 is the way to go for me. I'm currently running mine with stock weapons for gits and shiggles, but the build Neput posted is as close to optimized as you're likely to find.

Dakka builds can be good (and for a while the Grid Iron was quirked for UAC5s before it got Gauss quirks... but the general ballistic quirks do still make HBKs decent, if not exceptional Dakkamechs), but I'd still try to get that 250 in there somehow... or at least 225, but faster is better. Strip the left arm if you have to; speed and twist rate are more important than the one E slot there, and HBK arms don't shield much anyway. IMO 80kph or higher is where you want to be in a medium, even a tanky one like the HBK can be when driven well. It's not so much that you can't do well in a slow Hunch, as it is that you're likely to do better going a little bit faster.

[Mannson]

While on paper huncbacks seem like sturdy vechiles, they are not. Especially "True hunchbacks". The hunch is quick to go and so, I've too found out that having more speed is much better than having max armor.

My current 4G build switched out UAC5 for normal AC5s so it can move 73. Still bit slow, but atleast it can reposition better or do faster peekaboo. I normally play it was a "flankguard" or fatty escort. My SRM Hunchie however goes 84 and has proven to be pretty good at brawling medium roles AKA skirmishing and finishing off assaults though.

Still, someday.. I will try to put back the UACs without going back to superslow speed. Hunchies are fun and versatile in the end, when you find YOUR build, a hunchie is powerful lancemate alright.

[Sunstruck]

Being a Hunchback pilot the Gridiron, similar to the G is a variant I wanted to love, but after using the P, J and Gridiron regularly the Gridiron usually ends up with the lowest alpha, slowest speed (if your using a gauss or high calliber AC) and despite its massive quirks underperforms to the P and J at their best. For example the J you can have 2 SRM 6s, which are just as effective as an AC20 plus 5 more laser hardpoints to work with. The P can have 2 ER Large lasers that can reach almost as far as a gauss, without the ammo limitation, then you can use the other 6 laser hardpoints for med close range. I still think the Gridiron / G is an interesting and fun varient, but over time I just accepted the fact that its usually the slowest and lowest alpha of the three, and unfortunately in community warefare its really tough for medium mech pilots. You have to bring your top mechs.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Well... that's not really the whole story. AC20 and Gauss are both PPFLD weapons, with the highest per-shot damage of any weapon in the game delivered to a single point on the target. Does a pair of SRM6s deliver more raw damage? Yes... but it scatters. Even at slapping range, some of those missiles are going to either spread to components you weren't aiming for or just miss the enemy entirely, especially with SRM6. Lasers spread unless you have the hands of a surgeon (and let's face it, most of us don't) to keep them on target for the whole burn duration, which becomes harder and harder the longer the burn lasts. Dual ERLL does more damage than Gauss on paper, but you will almost never manage to get that whole 18 damage into one component. More likely it'll be 10 on the one you wanted to hit and 8 spread around the neighborhood, especially at range. If you nail a target with AC20 or Gauss, though... it's taking the full damage rating of that weapon to whatever you hit with it.

The fact that they're PPFLD also means you require only enough facetime to line up with your target and fire. The projectiles are small and easy to miss in the general chaos of battle, so your enemy might not even know where the shot came from until you've done crippling or killing damage. Ballistics also run far cooler than missiles or lasers do, so you can fire as soon as you come off cooldown and keep doing it until the magazine's dry or you're dead. Heat is never a problem in a Grid Iron or 4G... you just lay off firing the secondary weapons for a little while and lean on the big gun. Even a 4J or 4SP will eventually overheat firing a pair of SRM6s at maximum rate... the same is not true of a Gauss rifle or AC20, both of which are totally heat neutral on any build with the required 10 DHS (Gauss can even run with SHS and never generate heat). 15 or 20 damage doesn't look like much until you realize that you never have to stop firing it, and that as long as your aim is true at the moment you pull the trigger, all of your damage will go exactly where you wanted it to.

The short version: if you're not doing well with Gauss or AC20, it's not because the weapon system is weak. It's because you need to practice with it more (which is most emphatically not the same as saying you're bad; if you're doing well with dakka builds on a 'Mech whose optimal playstyle is snap-firing and shielding, then you're clearly anything but bad... I'm not very good with Gauss either, which is why my Grid Iron is presently running a carbon copy of my 4G build). Both are very strong weapons, even in the current laservomit meta. They're worth every ton and crit slot, every time. I might be biased, though; I have at least one AC20 variant of every chassis I own capable of mounting one, including the Urbanmech, so... there's that. HBK-4G was my first 'Mech purchase fresh off my cadet bonus, so there's that too. Dat kaboom. Accept no substitutes (at least until PGI adds IS UAC20, which I will use religiously).