106 replies to this topic

[brroleg]

Just make tonnage limit for Clans lower than for IS. Its perfectly fits lore, as Clans war philosophy is to try win battle with as much forces as possible.

For example, in tabletop simulation program MegaMek there is parameter "battle value". And if you take couple of Clan mechs and try to make equivalent "battle value" IS mechs group, you will end up almost with double tonnage on IS side. And its really balanced, cause its really hard to win with 2-3 Clan mechs against 5-6 IS mechs, but its possible if you lucky.

[Mcgral18]

OR....balance tech properly for a PVP game.

Asymmetrically if you wish, but like the cLPL VS isLPL, not OP Clammers.

[Wolfways]

Sorry OP but that would only work in a team-based game, not in MWO.

[-Vompo-]

That might kind of work in cw (and it is sort of there) but in solo and groups queue it would need a lot more tweaking. Otherwise solo queue would have only clan mechs and/or players trying to beat the odds in their is mechs and most of the time losing.

Edited by VompoVompatti, 15 February 2016 - 10:53 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

This has been suggested numerous times.

The problem is that will have absolutely no effect on the quick play queue and will severely mess up CW player dynamics. Why use IS mechs in quick play when Clan mechs are utterly superior? Many players would flock to Clan factions and completely steamroll the IS side with numbers AND superior mechs.

[Y E O N N E]

This thread is bad.

[627]

that doesn't work with the mixed queue we have. And balancing this game solely around CW is not the best idea either.

[Paigan]

Kaeb Odellas, on 15 February 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

This has been suggested numerous times.

The problem is that will have absolutely no effect on the quick play queue and will severely mess up CW player dynamics. Why use IS mechs in quick play when Clan mechs are utterly superior? Many players would flock to Clan factions and completely steamroll the IS side with numbers AND superior mechs.

It is doable. You just have to use a proper solution.

Say for quick play, a single player has a tonnage limit of 125 for clan and 250 for IS
(note: assuming PROPER Tech with Clan Mechs being worth like ~2 IS mechs of the same weight, not the quirk-magic-equalism we have now, so 1:2 would be balanced for Clans, as they have a 2:1 tech performance)
And he can respawn in multiple waves with multiple mechs. Similar to CW. Say up to 3 waves for clan and up to 5 for IS. Or 2/4 or so.

So choosing IS or Clans would mean to choose between strength in numbers vs. strength in tech.
Plus maybe a few other differences like IS having artillery and clans don't, etc.

That would not only balance clan vs IS, but also lights vs heavies:
You can take a Locust or Commando without feeling next to useless: because you can take 3 of them and still have enough tonnage left to take 2 assaults in the remaining waves.
You could also just "waste" one light for scouting, because you can come back after dying with another, even heavier Mech.
That would also fix the time to kill, at least the subjectively felt one: you can die quickly, but you can respawn and participate in the current match again.

The only problem is for the later waves to not drop the players into hopeless situations.
Meaning:
- Drop 4 reinforcement mechs at a time if possible (few seconds wait time, time out, etc.)
- Use different drop zones and take the one with the least enemies in/near it but still closest to the fight or maybe the own team.
Requires a little weighing formula, but it's far from rocket science.

Edited by Paigan, 16 February 2016 - 01:51 AM.

[Khobai]

baddle value is bad

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

As I've vehemently expressed before:

If Clans were lore-OP, and even if you had more players/tonnage on the IS side; that requires, by definition, that IS be inferior to Clans.

In a game where each player gets 1 'Mechs, no player want to be on the inferior side, as that means, by definition, that they will be more likely to lose (not as a team, as an individual).

[Lily from animove]

brroleg, on 15 February 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:

Just make tonnage limit for Clans lower than for IS. Its perfectly fits lore, as Clans war philosophy is to try win battle with as much forces as possible.

For example, in tabletop simulation program MegaMek there is parameter "battle value". And if you take couple of Clan mechs and try to make equivalent "battle value" IS mechs group, you will end up almost with double tonnage on IS side. And its really balanced, cause its really hard to win with 2-3 Clan mechs against 5-6 IS mechs, but its possible if you lucky.

and then? how does solo and group play work which is not faction seperated?

How does it balance bad is chassis vs strong IS chassis?
Or bad clanchassis vs good clanchassis?

Never brainstorm a idea out like this, tak some deeper thoughts to it and check if it makes sense with even the basic games conception. This would save us 90% of the ideas in the Forum which are just "hip shots" that are flawed in the basic design to a degree that would never work.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 February 2016 - 01:47 AM.

[Paigan]

Lily from animove, on 16 February 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

and then? how does solo and group play work which is not faction seperated?

See my post

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 16 February 2016 - 01:39 AM, said:

As I've vehemently expressed before:

If Clans were lore-OP, and even if you had more players/tonnage on the IS side; that requires, by definition, that IS be inferior to Clans.

In a game where each player gets 1 'Mechs, no player want to be on the inferior side, as that means, by definition, that they will be more likely to lose (not as a team, as an individual).

See my post

[Lily from animove]

Paigan, on 16 February 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:

See my post


See my post

your idea is still flawed, no one takes locusts or commandos, peopel would just use FS9's purely. The key PGI needs to get doen is chassis balance. there are mechs imilar in tonnage and having a grand canyons of usability between them. Once the game has proper chassis balance everything else in the mechanics balances too. Then its only palyers and skills that make the major difference.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 February 2016 - 01:52 AM.

[-Vompo-]

I suppose this idea is a really good one if you only wish to play clan versus clan but then again what's the point. Clan mechs are already as powerful as they should be against clan mechs.

It would be hard to find enough innersphere pilots to actually play the game properly. After all most of us don't wish to play cannon fodder for other players.

[Paigan]

Lily from animove, on 16 February 2016 - 01:51 AM, said:

your idea is still flawed, no one takes locusts or commandos, peopel would just use FS9's purely. The key PGI needs to get doen is chassis balance. there are mechs imilar in tonnage and having a grand canyons of usability between them. Once the game has proper chassis balance everything else in the mechanics balances too. Then its only palyers and skills that make the major difference.

You mix up different things that don't belong together.
You use a problem on the one side as an argument for another side.

There are TWO points here:
1.) Clan vs IS balance (or how to make OP Mechs still balanced)
2.) Some Chassis that are better than others.

Point 2 should be fixed, of course.
But please don't argue with that towards point 1.
Point 2 is already a problem in the current state. Meaning it is INDEPENDENT from the topic of this thread.

[Lily from animove]

Paigan, on 16 February 2016 - 02:29 AM, said:

You mix up different things that don't belong together.
You use a problem on the one side as an argument for another side.

There are TWO points here:
1.) Clan vs IS balance (or how to make OP Mechs still balanced)
2.) Some Chassis that are better than others.

Point 2 should be fixed, of course.
But please don't argue with that towards point 1.
Point 2 is already a problem in the current state. Meaning it is INDEPENDENT from the topic of this thread.

When chassis are balanced clan vs Is will also balance. it is actually this simple. Because IS is compossed of chassis, and Clan is composed of chassis. And with solo gameplay being just one man one mech, NO ONE would ever use IS mechs again. Its like bringing a stick to a gunfight.

These things do belong together. Even if you wish they wouldn't

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 February 2016 - 05:09 AM.

[SmoothCriminal]

Fundamental flaw - if drop deck tonnage is different in CW, how can IS v Clan be balanced in the PUG queue?

[oldradagast]

Kaeb Odellas, on 15 February 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

This has been suggested numerous times.

The problem is that will have absolutely no effect on the quick play queue and will severely mess up CW player dynamics. Why use IS mechs in quick play when Clan mechs are utterly superior? Many players would flock to Clan factions and completely steamroll the IS side with numbers AND superior mechs.

Additionally, nobody is interested in playing IS canon fodder just so some Clammer can brag about his huge epeen while playing in "boss mode."

it gets so tiring listening to Clammers whine that it takes less than a full lance to kill them, and yet I don't see them lining up to be thrown under the feet en-masse of the Clan mechs.

[MechWarrior849305]

Whoo-hoo, whinee thread again I LLLLLLLOVE IT!

[Raggedyman]

brroleg, on 15 February 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:

Just make tonnage limit for Clans lower than for IS. Its perfectly fits lore, as Clans war philosophy is to try win battle with as much forces as possible.

For example, in tabletop simulation program MegaMek there is parameter "battle value". And if you take couple of Clan mechs and try to make equivalent "battle value" IS mechs group, you will end up almost with double tonnage on IS side. And its really balanced, cause its really hard to win with 2-3 Clan mechs against 5-6 IS mechs, but its possible if you lucky.

Main problem: tabletop games are based on being 1v1 situations, with 1 person having control over the composition of each force. MWO is a 12v12 situation, with each mechwarrior having control over their mech. Whilst it is possible to balance out things in MWO in a theoretical manner, the adhock nature of the teams in the game makes the practicality of it far more complicated and likely to result in either unplayably unbalanced games (if you allow for imperfect balance) or long wait times (if you go for perfect balance), before you throw in player skill/experience levels.

Had PGI put it in at the start then it might (might) have been possible. But this far down the line it would require a huge amount of development work and an even bigger cultural shift in the player base (which basically means 'spend 6 months exclusively working on something that's likely to lose you half of your current players overnight on the off-chance it might bring in a couple more'). I would love to have seen BV and the like used for balancing, but it's just not likely to happen at this stage of the game.