271 replies to this topic

[coe7]

edit. added autohotkey macro at end of the post for those wanting to pulse flamers in brawls.

Here is a video to flamer action:

Target POV:



Flamer macro POV:



(how to do this without bothering with a macro at end of the post)

What you see happening in the video is:

1. 4 flamers are being full burned for 3 seconds to initially generate heat.

2. After that the 4 flamers are being pulsed in one group 0.1 seconds ON, 0.2 seconds OFF via mouse macro.

3. This results due low MWO server tickrate, that even touching opponents model for split second within any of the pulses keeps opponents mech at full flamer heat cap (90%) You can miss several pulses, since heat generated by 4 flamers is so high, it does not really matter. If you want to lockdown several mechs, add another keypress macro that burns flamers again for 3 seconds for your 2nd or 3rd or multiple targets.

4. Flaming mech gains 0 linear extra heat due to the 0.2 off period being higher than 0.1 seconds on. Flaming mech never goes into "linear generation mode". EG. with 2 tons (0.5ton per clan flamer) and 4 hardpoints, you can lockdown any mech in game to 90% heat and have your full heat potential to deal damage. Same goes for IS.

5. This can be further abused by figuring out perfect intervals for sets of 2, 3, 4 or more flamers, depending on build.

Brawling is very much based now on flamer macros. 1vs1 light duels just died, due any light carrying 2 flamers with proper macro will prevent any damage other shooting one laser impossible. (basicly you can act between 90% and 99% heat bracket)

All of this is absolutely bonkers. When macros are better optimized group and solo que will go absolutely nuts. Did Paul seriously think this was good idea? I'm baffled. No, I'm stunned.

PS. MWO servers will auto shutdown mechs that spam server with too many commands, if your mech instantly shutdowns, you are sending too many commands.

This can be done with pretty much any mech with 2-4 laser points available, even IS mechs like MPL thuds or blackjacks. Here is most obvious clan abuse: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2eeee04e8ec493d

--

edit. Hate macros? You can do this without macro, just try:

Its just about burning flamers for 4 second or so, like count up loud:

"one, twoo, three, fooo" and stop.

Then press mouse button for around 0.2 seconds, I tell you humans are very good at 2/10 of a second its just "press, see effect, release" thanks to our natural reaction time for something you see and act on.

Follow this with longer wait, like anything between 0.3-0.4 seconds and press mouse again. It will never go into linear heat gen mode, because you are at cooldown longer than activation.

You don't need a macro to do this, with macro you just make a proof of concept that something really stupid was just put ingame.

Original reddit post:

https://www.reddit.c...ken_pgi_pgiiii/

Autohotkey macro:

http://pastebin.com/As3Y0d77

Usage is simple, put flamers on weapon group 4, burn all flamers on 100% (button down) until enemy mech is heated, then just leave macro running by releasing button. Press button again to toggle pulses off. How long you need to pulse flamers on and how long they can be off depends on how many you use. Keep them as long as possible on off to minimize all heat gain. Values I used here are 100% unoptimized so try what works best for setup you are using.

Here is the link for autohotkey list of keys if you want to change activation key, its currently set to "mouse back" button.

https://autohotkey.c...ocs/KeyList.htm

Edited by coe7, 17 February 2016 - 03:33 AM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

An idea put into game without adequate testing? Seems like it. Who are the "yes" men who, if there is actually testing, simply nod their head to their PGI overlords?

Stop treating your very expensive game like a test server. You've "launched" it a few times now and it's on steam yet you persist on dropping terrible untested dynamics into the game with your fingers crossed. Not even sure who would think a flamer this powerful is a good idea. It's a weapon better used against elements your game will never have.

1: Setting things on fire.
2: Infantry.

Take it out of the game if you can't find a valid use for it.

Stun locks in MWO isn't good for game play.

Edited by xMADCATTERx, 16 February 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[Mahpsy]

Flamers have ******** short range, if you can get that close you are probably gona die. Played against a flamer wolf pack earlier and all 4 where so focused on 1 person i keep getting back CT shots back to back. And if your getting flamed you run back to your team and they scatter.

Edited by Ragingdemon, 16 February 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Ragingdemon, on 16 February 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

Flamers have ******** short range, if you can get that close you are probably gona die. Played against a flamer wolf pack earlier and all 4 where so focused on 1 person i keep getting back CT shots back to back. And if your getting flamed you run back to your team and they scatter.

**** short range like SPL's? How **** do you find Cheetahs and Firestarters?

Regardless of how useful one might thing a flamer is or isn't, stun locks have no place in this game. Flamer isn't even a viable anti mech weapon and used against elements that will never be in this game. It was added for completion, but in reality, they have wasted so much time on something that should be shelved.

Edited by xMADCATTERx, 16 February 2016 - 03:49 PM.

[coe7]

xMADCATTERx, on 16 February 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

Regardless of how useful one might thing a flamer is or isn't, stun locks have no place in this game. Flamer isn't even a viable anti mech weapon and used against elements that will never be in this game. It was added for completion, but in reality, they have wasted so much time on something that should be shelved.

The trick here is thats its not just a stunlock. Its a stunlock that does not cost any real heat for the user. Spending 4 points of heat / sec & 4 laser hardpoints it leaves you with 99% of your own mechs heat available to do damage.

Imagine same for FS9-A but replace two pulses with two flamers for same effect, free stunlock.....

[Mad Strike]

99 meters cero damage WITH MODULE XD XD XD XD lol but what about AC20 ?!!!!! they make 20 damage under 300 meters and can carry 2 of them NERF NERF NERF !!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA

Edited by Mad Strike, 16 February 2016 - 03:56 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

So, my flamer AS7-S is actually gonna work? Great!

[Felicitatem Parco]

I hope everyone understands there are 2 current Flamer problems. There's this bypass of the exponential system (which, if can be accomplished by a Macro means it is a "Feature" and not a bug), and also the problem with destroyed flamers causing instant shutdown of the firing Mech.

The exponential Flamer Heat has to go.

[coe7]

What is happening in the video:

Two mechs meet. One activates 2-4 flamers and opponent mech goes to flamer heat cap of 90%. The flaming mech spends 4 heat / sec (eg. absolutely nothing) to maintain 90% heat on the opponent mech while having all his heat available to do damage. This is achieved by pulsing the flamers.

Combine what you see in the videos with the fact that the aggressing flamer mech has 0% heat generated. He could use full weapon attacks while locking that mech down, and he can add another mech to the stunlock as well. Actually, he can add as many as he can touch with 90m + flamer module range.

Imagine now what happens in light duels, brawls, whatever, people will fit 2-4 flamers to instantly lock down enemy mech to 90% heat while still being themselves free to do full damage.

Mechanics of flamers are really broken. All of this is achieved because there are two internal mwo timers going on, one for activation of your flamers and one for when the linear heat generation kicks in. 1 second of flamer is 1 second off from the linear heat limit. So you pulse them to ensure you never trigger the linear heat generation, giving you essentially a free lockdown of as many opponents you can touch with your flamers. (While having full capacity to deal damage yourself while doing this..)

[pwnface]

Prosperity Park, on 16 February 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

I hope everyone understands there are 2 current Flamer problems. There's this bypass of the exponential system (which, if can be accomplished by a Macro means it is a "Feature" and not a bug), and also the problem with destroyed flamers causing instant shutdown of the firing Mech.

The exponential Flamer Heat has to go.

Exponential flamer heat was always a terrible system.

[pwnface]

They should just reduce flamer heat to 3 per second on your enemy and 1 per second on the mech using the flamer and get rid of the whole exponential heat bullsh!t. Make minimum burn time 0.5 seconds to stop the ability to "pulse" for essentially no heat.

[wanderer]

Never mind the bug that has destroyed flamers still contributing to exponential heat as if they never stopped firing.

It wasn't tough to do right, if they actually had thought about it.

Flamers increase "environmental heat". It's the same heat that you get from hot maps, burning terrain, etc. In TT, this is called "external heat"- inferno SRMs, plasma weapon, etc. fall under the same category and have a collective cap on how much you can add in a given turn.

You set the maximum environmental heat level to whatever feels right (TT it's 1.5 heat/sec-aka 15 heat in a ten second turn.).

Depending on how you want to buff flamers, you remove exponential heat from firing them and have them add X amount of environmental heat per flamer when applied. If you really want to, you ditch the 90% target heat rule too- since a DHS 'Mech will dump heat with 10 DHS faster than flamers can overwhelm it as long as you don't allow external heat to stack to obscene levels like it can now.

[Mystere]

xMADCATTERx, on 16 February 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

Regardless of how useful one might thing a flamer is or isn't, stun locks have no place in this game.

coe7, on 16 February 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

The trick here is thats its not just a stunlock.

What you call a "stun lock" I call "fire suppression". The tears are already flowing and I haven't even brought out my Firestarter named "Charlie":




Now if we can only get napalm for air strikes and incendiary rounds for artillery. <maniacal >

Edited by Mystere, 16 February 2016 - 04:43 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 16 February 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

What you call a "stun lock" I call "fire suppression". The tears are already flowing and I haven't even brought out my Firestarter named "Charlie":




<maniacal >

The point of the vid was to show how you'd avoid "the heat" while dishing it.

I mean, it's Paul tested, NGNG approved.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 16 February 2016 - 04:42 PM, said:

The point of the vid was to show how you'd avoid "the heat" while dishing it.

I mean, it's Paul tested, NGNG approved.

I dunno about NGNG-approved, Phil seemed pretty skeptical in the Rifleman stream...

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 16 February 2016 - 04:42 PM, said:

The point of the vid was to show how you'd avoid "the heat" while dishing it.

I mean, it's Paul tested, NGNG approved.

I was just commenting on the complaint about stun locks.

[Satan n stuff]

I'd like to point out that if you're firing at 4 heat per second a third of the time you're still generating 1.33 heat per second, that is over half of your heat dissipation gone unless you have a lot more heat sinks than most.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 February 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

I dunno about NGNG-approved, Phil seemed pretty skeptical in the Rifleman stream...

Too cereal?

[Ultimax]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 February 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

I dunno about NGNG-approved, Phil seemed pretty skeptical in the Rifleman stream...

Phil is unfortunately useless for balance discussions.

He was basically the Quirks Evangelist, and then he was anti-50% quirks - even after telling me in PMs that specific mechs were "fine" and now he is imagining "a world without quirks".

[Revis Volek]

Why flamers are even still in this game is beyond me, they are made to light things on fire and kill infantry, two things we cant have in game or wont even have in game.


Flamers need to just go, im tired of all this BS over a weapons systems that doesnt even really have a place in the game. We talk about wasted time and resources, can we file the past 4 years of flamers and anything done to them as useless yet?

Testing Changes is Lostech it seems anyway...