555 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Not sure how you math.

Clans start with just a couple worlds.

I noted how many they start with.

CW - 11
CGB - 11
CJF - 8
CSJ - 3

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Are you saying wins by good teams don't count? That to be a "fair measure" the Clans have to take worlds with pug drops and mediocre units?

12 mans against PUGs are not considerably good bearing for anything balance...neither is CW to be completely honest.

To hear the clans tell it, the Atlas rush is unstoppable in CW. Is the Atlas absurdly OP?

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Who do you think takes worlds on IS side?

The same good units who switch back...

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Again, what does MS have to do with anything? Do they have special mechs available?

******* MS. Always with the HAX and special treatment.

They have 8-9 12 mans going against PUGs, they take worlds fast, and efficiently...

[Deathlike]

Do you realize that using CW as an indication of "balance" is faulty?

Most of the movement happens when organized units like 228 or MS are taking their time... whether it be IS or Clan.

So, if there's any actual movement, there will be units spearheading that effort.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 25 March 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

12 mans vs PUGs.

Do the math.

If 12 mans were allowed in the solo queue, what do you expect the results would be?



I am not going to accept I am wrong, because I can demonstrably show that the only 2 clans taking worlds are large CW units mowing through PUGs.

Guess what happens when 228th/MS meet an organized IS unit...? They lose when the IS team is of their skill level, and as well organized. If you doubt me...ask them who is more powerful at the moment...they are not afraid to say it.

Look at who is running clan tags in those factions...NS/228th in CGB, and MS in CSJ. Those are the only 2 clans taking worlds, and it is driven by those units mowing down PUGs...nothing more.

CW is a terrible arena to try to project balance decisions upon.

So who is taking worlds from Clans on IS side?

What you're arguing is that big organized units take worlds for either side. That's correct - because both techs are pretty well balanced. The difference is that a lot of Clan players quit or went IS when they didn't have a huge advantage so they flounced, cried and ran away. So there's a population disparity.

It's not about tech but good teams vs bad teams.

As noted in MRBC and the MS Invitational there was a pretty even mix of IS and Clan. In CW Clan or IS wins based on skill difference not tech type.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 25 March 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Do you realize that using CW as an indication of "balance" is faulty?

Most of the movement happens when organized units like 228 or MS are taking their time... whether it be IS or Clan.

So, if there's any actual movement, there will be units spearheading that effort.

As always, my rallying battle cry is...

Lol CW.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

As noted in MRBC and the MS Invitational there was a pretty even mix of IS and Clan. In CW Clan or IS wins based on skill difference not tech type.

There's a skill difference, but mech selection generally is based on what is thought to be optimal for that role (or at least optimal for that pilot at least).

[Ghogiel]

>CSJ is taking planets
>CLAMS OP!

[Dimento Graven]

Avalon91211, on 25 March 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

...Which might I add, is what many Clan players are looking for, balance.

There may be some truly looking for balance, but most that post here begrudge the IS ANY aspect of ANY weapon that exceeds Clan capabilities. Just look at the constant whine about duration. According to them and the direct word for word translations of their arguments the IS shouldn't even be allowed to MATCH ANY Clan ability.

So... So much for 'balance', eh?

Yes, IS gets a shorter duration beam, BUT, Clans ignore the fact that NOW no IS weapon will exceed the range of its Clan counter part. No IS weapon will exceed the Clan counter part's damage. No IS weapon will be smaller, or lighter weight than its Clan counter part, BUT OH MY GOD CLAN HISTRIONICS on that one point.

[Stargazzer811]

I seriously have to agree Graven. I started this post moreso we could have an intelligent discussion based on each persons exploits in CW and to determine which mechs on the Clan side need help to be in balance with IS mechs.

Weapons on both sides are rather even given the fact Clan weapons are lighter, shoot farther, ect. I'm fine with the weapons, but it's more a survivability thing. This will sound crazy but when I pilot a Dire Wolf, my CT sometimes gets shreaded like tissue paper by even just one or two mechs, even with torso twisting to spread damage out.

As for Mischief, MS may have switched back to Clans as of late, I personally am not aware of it. I do believe KCom is still with Marik though they could have switched back to Kurita, and I know PHL is with Kurita, as I fought them today. Most of Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon are facing the 12th Donegal Guards, 228th, and -SO- which can hammer even good Clan units to dust.

I will say that you are right on one thing Mischief, and that is that it often comes down to skill with the mech you pilot and build you use over the mech in general. That said, the Clan mechs need to last long enough for their pilots to use said skill and have a decent go.

[MischiefSC]

Avalon91211, on 25 March 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

I seriously have to agree Graven. I started this post moreso we could have an intelligent discussion based on each persons exploits in CW and to determine which mechs on the Clan side need help to be in balance with IS mechs.

Weapons on both sides are rather even given the fact Clan weapons are lighter, shoot farther, ect. I'm fine with the weapons, but it's more a survivability thing. This will sound crazy but when I pilot a Dire Wolf, my CT sometimes gets shreaded like tissue paper by even just one or two mechs, even with torso twisting to spread damage out.

As for Mischief, MS may have switched back to Clans as of late, I personally am not aware of it. I do believe KCom is still with Marik though they could have switched back to Kurita, and I know PHL is with Kurita, as I fought them today. Most of Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon are facing the 12th Donegal Guards, 228th, and -SO- which can hammer even good Clan units to dust.

I will say that you are right on one thing Mischief, and that is that it often comes down to skill with the mech you pilot and build you use over the mech in general. That said, the Clan mechs need to last long enough for their pilots to use said skill and have a decent go.

KCom is with Steiner, 228 is with Kurita.

Not a lot of units in Clans right now - not Wolf anyway. There's some in CGB, who's doing well. MS is in CJF. Population in Wolf and CJF are tiny.

Clan mechs last plenty long. My TBR is significantly more durable than my BK or QDs. Ton for ton any of the 'good' Clan mechs can (with some twisting) take more of a beating than their IS counterparts. That whole 'CXL' thing plus better maneuverability.

Units have no magic trick for winning in Clan mechs though. No more so than winning in IS mechs. Coordination and communication and not bringing terrible mechs. They don't even run all meta - I ran with KCom several times yesterday and a drop today, the last thing you'd call their decks was 'meta'. 2xAC5 BLR, AC20+SRM KGC, I'm confident that they could roll most competent teams with a drop deck consisting of unpeeled potatoes. What they did do however was communicate exceptionally well. Just a ****-ton of situational awareness and individual skill, which they do an amazing job of sharing. That's part (IMO) of why a KCom 4man can absolutely carry wins with pug teams. Sure, they're all individually good - what they do exceptionally well is apply those skills to the benefit of the whole team instead of using their team like meat shields.

That's why KCom, which runs mostly 4-6mans, pretty much turned CJF into a powerhouse even in the face of MS and other big units in FRR and Steiner. While running Clan mechs btw.

Still dissecting that one but I've seen it repeated all over the game. Clan teams dominate by being very aggressive - the poke/snipe/LRM ones only beat pugs but fall apart in the face of competent IS teams. IS teams that coordinate well and adapt to the variable speed of their team so they don't lose cohesion and who actually push instead of stopping to poke can wreck face. There's overall strategies that work best with different tech bases; Clans shine with fast pushes and flanks, IS shines with a steamroll approach and firing lines.

There's exceptions. The whole Stormtrooper deck that FRR is doing has me very excited - deck synergy is very, very powerful and getting the bulk of a faction to put time and energy into a universal strategy framework could make FRR the universal powerhouse against all comers in CW3. Really curious to see if they've got the umph to pull it off, I hope they do. A faction-wide meta would be the sort of thing that would let FRR stand on their own in the face of all 4 Clan factions, regardless of what units come and go from the Clans.

That's nothing to do with IS tech though. The BLK and QDs are nice mechs - they are solid heavy mech performers. In no way, shape or form are they flat out superior to the TBR/EBJ/HBR decks. Just comparable. Current IS models for most decks (with few exceptions) are frontloaded tonnage; you try to pull 800-1K out of each of your assaults and then use a medium and a light to clean up. This can be a real struggle if your first or second wave don't perform incredibly well because most Clan decks will have greater performers out to wave 4.

NKVA does it with the GHR deck - and regardless of personal opinions NKVA kicks a lot of ***. Deck synergy with a solid performing setup. Same with the Mauler. It's a good mech but you run into a wall of 5xAC5 Maulers on Sulfur or Vitric? They're going to obliterate **** until their bins run dry.

Clans? Run your 4x4 or 3xTBR 1x Jenner/ACH decks, load for mid range to brawling and flank a lot. When pushing a firing line you push THROUGH, it forces the enemy to turn their backs to some of you. Get through the gates before the other team can get into position, push and overwhelm. Expect to have a hard go on the first 2 waves and make it up on 3 and 4 if need be.

Tech doesn't decide it. Skill and coordination does.

[Monodominant]

So MS came to Clans and Clans win planets.

Does that not show that a good, coordinated unit can win with whatever mechs they have be it Clan or IS?

Why is it that they 'only beat PUGs' while when they were on the other side they were not doing the same?

Its not the Mech Tech fault but the fact that major units have dropped the game (for whatever reason) and hence created an unbalance. I for one dont play clan because it costs a huge amount of CBILLS to obtain the mechs (yes I know when you factor in upgrades they end up similarly but for a new player, having to fork 45 million for 3 TBRs up front vs the low cost entry of IS mechs that slowly become expensive is a big deal).

Another example of this is units like SWOL. They have around 600 members... out of whom I imagine 15-25% are active are active... but recently the leadership decided to cool off with the game and look at other games... the result? Probably even less Wolf players in general. Thats not cause Clan mechs are bad... its cause they got bored with the game in general.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 01:37 AM, said:

KCom is with Steiner, 228 is with Kurita.

Not a lot of units in Clans right now - not Wolf anyway. There's some in CGB, who's doing well. MS is in CJF. Population in Wolf and CJF are tiny.

Clan mechs last plenty long. My TBR is significantly more durable than my BK or QDs. Ton for ton any of the 'good' Clan mechs can (with some twisting) take more of a beating than their IS counterparts. That whole 'CXL' thing plus better maneuverability.

FULL STOP!

If you have issues with BKs dying before TWs...you are doing it wrong. I have both...the BK is drastically more survivable, by a good country mile, than the TW. That is even with an XL engine.

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Units have no magic trick for winning in Clan mechs though. No more so than winning in IS mechs. Coordination and communication and not bringing terrible mechs. They don't even run all meta - I ran with KCom several times yesterday and a drop today, the last thing you'd call their decks was 'meta'. 2xAC5 BLR, AC20+SRM KGC, I'm confident that they could roll most competent teams with a drop deck consisting of unpeeled potatoes. What they did do however was communicate exceptionally well. Just a ****-ton of situational awareness and individual skill, which they do an amazing job of sharing. That's part (IMO) of why a KCom 4man can absolutely carry wins with pug teams. Sure, they're all individually good - what they do exceptionally well is apply those skills to the benefit of the whole team instead of using their team like meat shields.

Organized units against PUGs...again...

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That's why KCom, which runs mostly 4-6mans, pretty much turned CJF into a powerhouse even in the face of MS and other big units in FRR and Steiner. While running Clan mechs btw.

I suppose Lords, QQ, JFP, and about 5-6 other small units had nothing to do with CJF prominence...it was all KCom, eh? I do not begrudge them being a solid unit...but at peak, to my knowledge, they only have about 35-40 guys typically.

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Still dissecting that one but I've seen it repeated all over the game. Clan teams dominate by being very aggressive - the poke/snipe/LRM ones only beat pugs but fall apart in the face of competent IS teams. IS teams that coordinate well and adapt to the variable speed of their team so they don't lose cohesion and who actually push instead of stopping to poke can wreck face. There's overall strategies that work best with different tech bases; Clans shine with fast pushes and flanks, IS shines with a steamroll approach and firing lines.

Clans are terrible with brawling...in fact...with clans you want to be as far from the enemy as possible and still deal solid damage. Clans are about 500-600m+ engagements.

Do you even own clan mechs? Lots of this sounds like the stuff that people who do not own clan mechs at all spout...

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There's exceptions. The whole Stormtrooper deck that FRR is doing has me very excited - deck synergy is very, very powerful and getting the bulk of a faction to put time and energy into a universal strategy framework could make FRR the universal powerhouse against all comers in CW3. Really curious to see if they've got the umph to pull it off, I hope they do. A faction-wide meta would be the sort of thing that would let FRR stand on their own in the face of all 4 Clan factions, regardless of what units come and go from the Clans.

CW means **** for balance though...so...point?

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That's nothing to do with IS tech though. The BLK and QDs are nice mechs - they are solid heavy mech performers. In no way, shape or form are they flat out superior to the TBR/EBJ/HBR decks. Just comparable. Current IS models for most decks (with few exceptions) are frontloaded tonnage; you try to pull 800-1K out of each of your assaults and then use a medium and a light to clean up. This can be a real struggle if your first or second wave don't perform incredibly well because most Clan decks will have greater performers out to wave 4.

Ok, let us be clear about something right now.

The most OP mechs in the game by weight class right now:

Assault: Mauler

Heavy: BK

Medium: BJ

Light: Oxide

If you think I am lying ask somebody from SJR/228th comp teams.

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NKVA does it with the GHR deck - and regardless of personal opinions NKVA kicks a lot of ***. Deck synergy with a solid performing setup. Same with the Mauler. It's a good mech but you run into a wall of 5xAC5 Maulers on Sulfur or Vitric? They're going to obliterate **** until their bins run dry.

GHR is a better hill humper...the BK is the best mid-range engagement mech in the game right now. GHR is far less tanky than BK to boot.

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Clans? Run your 4x4 or 3xTBR 1x Jenner/ACH decks, load for mid range to brawling and flank a lot. When pushing a firing line you push THROUGH, it forces the enemy to turn their backs to some of you. Get through the gates before the other team can get into position, push and overwhelm. Expect to have a hard go on the first 2 waves and make it up on 3 and 4 if need be.

Sure, except that the organized units (all you see in CW these days) run Atlas Wall + 3 mechs for 160 tons. The atlas rush is ********...and those decks you mentioned burn 2-3 mechs for PUGs to try and burn down 12 atlases.

So, now you either bring DWs and gimp your deck to stand a chance against an Atlas/Mauler rush...or you risk being WAY too light to reliably burn down structure quirked IS assaults and blow 2 waves trying to kill those mechs.

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Tech doesn't decide it. Skill and coordination does.

Except when tech does decide it...then tech decides it...

Seriously...go play CW as a solo clan PUG...just 3-5 matches.

[Ace Selin]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

Clans are terrible with brawling...in fact...with clans you want to be as far from the enemy as possible and still deal solid damage. Clans are about 500-600m+ engagements.

This quote right here shows me this guy know nothing about the game or how to play Clan mechs. This is one of the most incorrect statements on these forums.

4xSRM6 4sml pulse Timber is not a brawler., LOL
6xSRM6 4sml pulse MadDog is not a brawler either apparently.

Please go play the game and then start talking about it because your comments are either trolling or clueless.

Edited by Ace Selin, 26 March 2016 - 07:34 AM.

[Tarogato]

Ace Selin, on 26 March 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:

This quote right here shows me this guy know nothing about the game or how to play Clan mechs. This is one of the most incorrect statements on these forums.

4xSRM6 4sml pulse Timber is not a brawler., LOL
6xSRM6 4sml pulse MadDog is not a brawler either apparently.

Please go play the game and then start talking about it because your comments are either trolling or clueless.

Never trust a Wolf loyalist to understand how to play Clan mechs. Except AW0L and RCW, those two seem to know what they're doing. If you don't believe me, look at the unit statistics, where Clan Wolf was mostly dominated by mercenary units (apparently the Wolf loyalists hired MS, in particular?). Heck, in Tuk 1 Gyrok's unit gen-rushed in every match I encountered them (only three, admittedly) and still they only got the 8th best winrate of Clan Wolf. I haven't seen their unit since then.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 26 March 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Never trust a Wolf loyalist to understand how to play Clan mechs. Except AW0L and RCW, those two seem to know what they're doing. If you don't believe me, look at the unit statistics, where Clan Wolf was mostly dominated by mercenary units (apparently the Wolf loyalists hired MS, in particular?). Heck, in Tuk 1 Gyrok's unit gen-rushed in every match I encountered them (only three, admittedly) and still they only got the 8th best winrate of Clan Wolf. I haven't seen their unit since then.

The funny thing was... "Clans" won Tukayyid 2, despite knowing after the fact that Clan tech wasn't so popular at the time. Gee, I wonder why...

Oh wait... skilled units (which were stacked in Clans to avoid wait) did work. Who knew?

[Gyrok]

Ace Selin, on 26 March 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:

This quote right here shows me this guy know nothing about the game or how to play Clan mechs. This is one of the most incorrect statements on these forums.

4xSRM6 4sml pulse Timber is not a brawler., LOL
6xSRM6 4sml pulse MadDog is not a brawler either apparently.

Please go play the game and then start talking about it because your comments are either trolling or clueless.

The MDD is a joke, nobody in tier 1 runs a MDD because it is obviously a terrible mech, SRM36 not withstanding...

The TW is a passable brawler, only because of the speed. You know what will likely be a more common site in brawl decks once it is league eligible? 9xSRM4 Archers...think the TW stands a chance in a brawl against that monster? If you do, think again.
Clans suck at brawling.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

The TW is a passable brawler, only because of the speed. You know what will likely be a more common site in brawl decks once it is league eligible? 9xSRM4 Archers...think the TW stands a chance in a brawl against that monster? If you do, think again.
Clans suck at brawling.

Timberwolf with 4 SPL+4ASRM6 is fine... not great, but doable.

Archers on the other hand... I would totally rule out due to squishiness (despite the recent changes) and indirectly Ghost Heat.

Clans don't suck at brawling. You choose not to use the proper tools.

[Gyrok]

Tarogato, on 26 March 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Never trust a Wolf loyalist to understand how to play Clan mechs. Except AW0L and RCW, those two seem to know what they're doing. If you don't believe me, look at the unit statistics, where Clan Wolf was mostly dominated by mercenary units (apparently the Wolf loyalists hired MS, in particular?). Heck, in Tuk 1 Gyrok's unit gen-rushed in every match I encountered them (only three, admittedly) and still they only got the 8th best winrate of Clan Wolf. I haven't seen their unit since then.

We stopped caring about CW after the complete circus that was Tuk1.

Also, I would point out that we had 3 separate 12 mans operating, some were less skilled than the others...as MS no doubt is much the same.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Clans don't suck at brawling. You choose not to use the proper tools.

I suppose you are going to tell me the TW is a better 300m mech than a BK/TDR/WHM/ARC?

You do realize that the SRM36 MDD is complete garbage, but it will completely derail that brawler TW build in a 1v1 right?

The SRM archer will be in comp decks for the sheer oomph it packs, and how cool it will run comparatively...

Reality is that those mechs, if in a supported push, would be devastating to greater degree than any clan SRM mech could ever hope...

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

I suppose you are going to tell me the TW is a better 300m mech than a BK/TDR/WHM/ARC?

No... I'm only saying you're underrating it severely.

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You do realize that the SRM36 MDD is complete garbage, but it will completely derail that brawler TW build in a 1v1 right?

Maddogs are soft, and still are. Glass cannon is the correct term for that.

Oxides and the (primary) Jenner IIC are much better SRM delivery mechs at this point in time.

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The SRM archer will be in comp decks for the sheer oomph it packs, and how cool it will run comparatively...

I don't really see that at all. The mechs that do it better (besides the previously named) are better at delivering SRM payloads, such as the Griffin... and sadly yes, the Kintaro.

I question more on the Archer's durability on top of its SRM sustainability... it's not as if the Catapult-A1 was a thing in comp play.

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Reality is that those mechs, if in a supported push, would be devastating to greater degree than any clan SRM mech could ever hope...

You keep saying that, and that in itself is nowhere near true. Clan SRMs are fine for the most part. I still mock the IS "buff" in SRM damage because it's practically inconsequential when it comes down to reality.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, the problem sounds like you're not very good with Clan mechs. I've got over 1200 QP drops in TBRs and in Clans I can drop with great Clan units like AWOL, keep up and end in the middle of the scoreboard. I'm not uber golden elite but I do good in Clan robbits. I have more time in TBRs than any single IS mech.

If you can't work a TBR to out-brawl any IS mech in most situations you're doing it wrong. If you can't drastically out-tank a BK you're really doing it wrong.

Situationally an IS team can create a specialized deck that's potentially stronger for that wave than a Clan deck. Vitric is a good example - a line of Maulers with some Jags or other more nimble cool runners can just demolish on attack or defense - for 2 waves. So if you can roll the Clan team up by wave 3 you're fine. Otherwise you're in trouble.

Clans at their most successful are a meat grinder. You look at traded tonnage not kill for kill and try to trap and burn out the other team big tonnage early and prep between waves.

Same as everyone else has said.