37 replies to this topic

[EAP10]

Jump jets for most mechs above medium class are relatively useless. This has been an issue for a while now, and PGI is to afraid to bring back the poptart meta.

So.

I have a quick idea that could possibly help with the issue.

When you thrust with JJs, your reticle shakes like normal and your accuracy is affected.

When you are in the air but not thrusting, it could be that your reticle sways side to side and up and down to a medium extent, to make it that PP weapons are harder to use while in the air, and requiring more skill to poptart effectively.

With this PGI could buff JJs across the board, and make mechs like the Executioner and summoner actually useful. (I know those two mechs aren't terrible, but still)

This is just a quick idea I thought up.

[Corrado]

EAP10, on 24 March 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

Jump jets for most mechs above medium class are relatively useless. This has been an issue for a while now, and PGI is to afraid to bring back the poptart meta.

So.

I have a quick idea that could possibly help with the issue.

When you thrust with JJs, your reticle shakes like normal and your accuracy is affected.

When you are in the air but not thrusting, it could be that your reticle sways side to side and up and down to a medium extent, to make it that PP weapons are harder to use while in the air, and requiring more skill to poptart effectively.

With this PGI could buff JJs across the board, and make mechs like the Executioner and summoner actually useful. (I know those two mechs aren't terrible, but still)

This is just a quick idea I thought up.

actually, summoner and exe are the few with less problems. Summoner's JJ ability is really good, the exe JJ use is to add mobility, not poptarting ability. instead, victors and highlanders are way worse.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Corrado, on 24 March 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

exe JJ use is to add mobility

No, the MASC is by far the better tonnage investment, if given the choice I would be willing to bet most would strip the JJs for something more worthwhile. Class I JJs are bad, Executioner, Highlander, and Whale alike.

[Corrado]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 March 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

No, the MASC is by far the better tonnage investment, if given the choice I would be willing to bet most would strip the JJs for something more worthwhile. Class I JJs are bad, Executioner, Highlander, and Whale alike.

well ok but since we can't take em off... i use them to climb. Combined with MASC acceleration, you can cross uneven terrain really easly.

[EAP10]

Corrado, on 24 March 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

actually, summoner and exe are the few with less problems. Summoner's JJ ability is really good, the exe JJ use is to add mobility, not poptarting ability. instead, victors and highlanders are way worse.

Yea the Highlander and other assualt mechs need help.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Corrado, on 24 March 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

well ok but since we can't take em off... i use them to climb. Combined with MASC acceleration, you can cross uneven terrain really easly.

I wouldn't say easily, and a lot of the time it relies more on abusing jumping against terrain to actually boost your jump height. You are unable to jump up from the lower level to upper level on canyon without colliding into the canyon wall to "slide" up it.

[process]

Not-so-quick jump jet solution: give jump jets thrust and distance values closer to the source material, and rely on weapon mechanics to curtail poptarting.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

*Increase heat generated by JJ's (increasing number of JJ's doesn't increase total heat, heat generated is a flat number determined by class of JJ's)

*Exponential growth of initial thrust based on number of JJ's. (1 jet sucks at jumping, 4+ is quite good, 7+ is redonk)

*Recharge speed based on number of JJ's (linear, time reduced by number of jets)

*Increase fall damage of medium heavies and especially assaults (Allow players in assaults to jump, but with consequences for sucking at landing)

*All jump capable mechs with less than 5 Jets allowed to equip 5 max. (mechs who were balanced by allowing more than others under the limit receive either thrust or reduce fall damage quirks).

*Omnimechs with JJ's are no longer hard locked (Summoners & Shadowcats rejoice!)

.
.
.
.
.
.
Fixed.

[DivineEvil]

Heavier mechs = Better thrust for much longer refill duration.

Fixed.

[Nightmare1]

PGI should just fix JJs back to the way they were. With all the nerfs to Gauss and ballistics, as well as PPCs, poptarting will never return as the dominant play style.

Besides, with the new power draw system coming out soon, it's likely that JJs will pull power from the reactor too. There's no reason not to have real JJs now. Poptarts had their day and will never dominate again.

[ImperialKnight]

IMO, the only problem are with Class I JJs. They don't give enough thrust for the tonnage.

It turned the one mech that is known for jumping and whose signature move is called Highlander Burial, into a Lowlander

[Navid A1]

80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie, on 24 March 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

*Increase heat generated by JJ's (increasing number of JJ's doesn't increase total heat, heat generated is a flat number determined by class of JJ's)

*Exponential growth of initial thrust based on number of JJ's. (1 jet sucks at jumping, 4+ is quite good, 7+ is redonk)

*Recharge speed based on number of JJ's (linear, time reduced by number of jets)

*Increase fall damage of medium heavies and especially assaults (Allow players in assaults to jump, but with consequences for sucking at landing)

*All jump capable mechs with less than 5 Jets allowed to equip 5 max. (mechs who were balanced by allowing more than others under the limit receive either thrust or reduce fall damage quirks).

*Omnimechs with JJ's are no longer hard locked (Summoners & Shadowcats rejoice!)

.
.
.
.
.
.
Fixed.

Its good you don't work for PGI.

You realize we are talking about buffing JJs right...

Your proposal is a multi front full-scale invasion against JJs... your proposal demolishes JJ from every possible aspect imaginable.

Think of all the victors and highlanders.

[Metus regem]

Navid A1, on 24 March 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Its good you don't work for PGI.

You realize we are talking about buffing JJs right...

Your proposal is a multi front full-scale invasion against JJs... your proposal demolishes JJ from every possible aspect imaginable.

Think of all the victors and highlanders.

Sadly, I fear that he might really be the Nerfanator on his non-staffer account....

[SplashDown]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 March 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

No, the MASC is by far the better tonnage investment, if given the choice I would be willing to bet most would strip the JJs for something more worthwhile. Class I JJs are bad, Executioner, Highlander, and Whale alike.

JJ's on assault mechs are mainly for faster turning imo...and thats what i use them for

[Koniving]

Simpler fix.
All jumpjets produce X amount of vertical distance + horizontal distance. Say 6 to 8 meters height + 15 (or preferably 30) meters forward per second. You have 1 second use time per JJ. No more feasible poptart meta because you cannot remain stationary while abusing invisible-hitbox-terrain in a jump.

So remember, 1 second is 6 or 8 meters height. 15 or 30 meters forward. (Any combination of height and forward as desired).
Each JJ you equip gives you 1 second of thrust (so equip 7 JJs, you have 7 seconds of thrust which is what it would take to reach the maximum height and distance).

1 JJ? Any mech: 6 or 8 meters height, 15 or 30 meters forward. (Takes 1 second to achieve this).
3 JJ? Any mech: 18 or 24 meters height, 45 or 90 meters forward. (Takes 3 seconds to achieve this.)
7 JJ? (Wolverine) : 42 or 56 meters height. 105 or 210 meters forward. (Takes 7 seconds to achieve this.)

Note: Five Northrup 120000 jump jets, with two in either leg and the fifth in the rear torso, improves upon the Wolverine's relatively fast cruising speed of 54 km/h by allowing it to jump up to 150 meters at a time.

That's 150 meters forward for 5 jumpjets that come with a stock Wolverine.

5 JJ? 30 or 40 meters height, 75 or 150 meters forward. (Takes 5 seconds to achieve this.)
OMG WE COULD BE TRUE TO THE LORE---OH MY FREAKING GAWD! O_O! IT really is possible!

Pfft, yeah PGI isn't gonna do it.

But: 12 JJ (Spider example) : 72 or 96 meters high, 180 or 360 meters forward! (Takes 12 seconds to achieve this).

Will we see it? Meh, probably not. But DAMN would it be good!

Edit:
A few quick, anti-abuse notes:

• JJ thrust would be a steady amount; no initial Kinetic 'power thrust' as MWO has. No drastic height change in the 'jump-start' animation either, which allows for the 'spam space and jam hit detection' abuse that MWO suffers.
  
• Maximum height can only be achieved with constant thrust (obviously) and as such it leaves you with nothing to 'land with'.
  
• Worried about enemies with airtime? Don't.
  
• Distance forward is while stationary; this ideally (if I was making changes to the jumpjets) could be combined with inertia to produce 'longer, faster-traveling' leaps if you combine full speed and your jumpjets. You could even use this to jump diagonally, by having your speed in one direction then leap while twisting your legs.
  
• With jumpjets always producing an upward and forward thrust, this means you could change direction in mid-air, provided you have enough thrust to manipulate your momentum. In theory, provided enough burn power you could also use this to 'slow down' or fall short of colliding with a wall.
  
  • Which brings me to another important but unrelated thing; I believe that colliding with walls at speed should produce negative effects such as damage.
• Note that with this concept, a stationary jump is literally impossible and the use of jumpjets 'just to speed up turning' would also be severely hampered, keeping jumpjets as a method of transportation and not a method of surpassing the intended agility of your machine (so unlike the old Victor/Highlander which could do a 360 degree spin in a single jump [Heavy Metal and Victors], that would not be possible with this concept).
  
• Another note in regards to turning: The faster you are going when you jump, the more difficult an actual airborne extreme change in direction would be; keep this in mind.
  
• A final note in regards to turning: Ideally for best results, being unable to 'turn' while airborne without burning jumpjets would not only be realistic but it would also enforce the above two stipulations.

For those worried about the physics of jumping, letting off and jumping:



You would not be entitled to the full height if you jumped, let off and thrusted again. You'd lose height equal to the opposing meters/second you had to overcome to get upward lift again assuming you had the thrust left to do so. As this is harder for heavier mechs, this means that you don't 'pulse' your jumpjets in the air or you won't get anywhere.

----------
Spiders would be be so much fun.
As would that Trebuchet with the high number of jumpjets.

Edited by Koniving, 24 March 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[Coralld]

Koniving, on 24 March 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

Simpler fix.
All jumpjets produce X amount of vertical distance + horizontal distance. Say 6 to 8 meters height + 15 (or preferably 30) meters forward per second. You have 1 second use time per JJ. No more feasible poptart meta because you cannot remain stationary while abusing invisible-hitbox-terrain in a jump.

So remember, 1 second is 6 or 8 meters height. 15 or 30 meters forward. (Any combination of height and forward as desired).
Each JJ you equip gives you 1 second of thrust (so equip 7 JJs, you have 7 seconds of thrust which is what it would take to reach the maximum height and distance).

1 JJ? Any mech: 6 or 8 meters height, 15 or 30 meters forward. (Takes 1 second to achieve this).
3 JJ? Any mech: 18 or 24 meters height, 45 or 90 meters forward. (Takes 3 seconds to achieve this.)
7 JJ? (Wolverine) : 42 or 56 meters height. 105 or 210 meters forward. (Takes 7 seconds to achieve this.)

Note: Five Northrup 120000 jump jets, with two in either leg and the fifth in the rear torso, improves upon the Wolverine's relatively fast cruising speed of 54 km/h by allowing it to jump up to 150 meters at a time.

That's 150 meters forward for 5 jumpjets that come with a stock Wolverine.

5 JJ? 30 or 40 meters height, 75 or 150 meters forward. (Takes 5 seconds to achieve this.)
OMG WE COULD BE TRUE TO THE LORE---OH MY FREAKING GAWD! O_O! IT really is possible!

Pfft, yeah PGI isn't gonna do it.

But: 12 JJ (Spider example) : 72 or 96 meters high, 180 or 360 meters forward! (Takes 12 seconds to achieve this).

Will we see it? Meh, probably not. But DAMN would it be good!

Edit:
A few quick, anti-abuse notes:

• JJ thrust would be a steady amount; no initial Kinetic 'power thrust' as MWO has. No drastic height change in the 'jump-start' animation either, which allows for the 'spam space and jam hit detection' abuse that MWO suffers.
  
• Maximum height can only be achieved with constant thrust (obviously) and as such it leaves you with nothing to 'land with'.
  
• Worried about enemies with airtime? Don't.
  
• Distance forward is while stationary; this ideally (if I was making changes to the jumpjets) could be combined with inertia to produce 'longer, faster-traveling' leaps if you combine full speed and your jumpjets. You could even use this to jump diagonally, by having your speed in one direction then leap while twisting your legs.
  
• With jumpjets always producing an upward and forward thrust, this means you could change direction in mid-air, provided you have enough thrust to manipulate your momentum. In theory, provided enough burn power you could also use this to 'slow down' or fall short of colliding with a wall.
  
  • Which brings me to another important but unrelated thing; I believe that colliding with walls at speed should produce negative effects such as damage.
• Note that with this concept, a stationary jump is literally impossible and the use of jumpjets 'just to speed up turning' would also be severely hampered, keeping jumpjets as a method of transportation and not a method of surpassing the intended agility of your machine (so unlike the old Victor/Highlander which could do a 360 degree spin in a single jump [Heavy Metal and Victors], that would not be possible with this concept).
  
• Another note in regards to turning: The faster you are going when you jump, the more difficult an actual airborne extreme change in direction would be; keep this in mind.
  
• A final note in regards to turning: Ideally for best results, being unable to 'turn' while airborne without burning jumpjets would not only be realistic but it would also enforce the above two stipulations.

For those worried about the physics of jumping, letting off and jumping:



You would not be entitled to the full height if you jumped, let off and thrusted again. You'd lose height equal to the opposing meters/second you had to overcome to get upward lift again assuming you had the thrust left to do so. As this is harder for heavier mechs, this means that you don't 'pulse' your jumpjets in the air or you won't get anywhere.

----------
Spiders would be be so much fun.
As would that Trebuchet with the high number of jumpjets.

This... This man right here has the idea and a damn good one at that.

You sir get all the cookies.

[Alistair Winter]

Actually, Paul Inouye specifically said that poptarting should be a viable style of playing in MWO. And then he nerfed them forever.

I'm not saying I want poptarting. I've always advocated jump jets that have lots of horizontal thrust in addition to vertical thrust. Ideally, we would have 6 different jump jet controls, like MW2. But failing that, they could at least imitate MW:LL. But I'd be happy to see a bit more poptarting if that's the alternative to having 8 tons of paperweights on my Highlanders.

[Navid A1]

Coralld, on 24 March 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

This... This man right here has the idea and a damn good one at that.

You sir get all the cookies.

You must be new around here then...

Koniving has a track record of having great ideas...
He has been winning cookies since 2012!

[Coralld]

Navid A1, on 24 March 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

You must be new around here then...

Koniving has a track record of having great ideas...
He has been winning cookies since 2012!

I have been here from the start, I know who he is, which is why I said he gets all the cookies instead of just one.

[Metus regem]

Coralld, on 24 March 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

I have been here from the start, I know who he is, which is why I said he gets all the cookies instead of just one.

With all of his well thought out ideas, PGI should make him our balance overlord, though keep the other guy on staff as the official whipping boy/scape goat.