88 replies to this topic

[Jerry McMasters]

Now, before you dismiss me as a whiner or flamer, listen to this.
I'm definitely not saying that light mechs in themselves are overpowered, neither are SRMs. However, the issue lies in the fact that there is a key strategy for skilled SRM boats, specifically the Jenner both IIC and IS hero variants.

There's more than one point in this thread, there's an honest question, and there's a suggestion. Jenners are one of the shortest light mechs you can drive, easily ducking under some of the taller mechs, escaping their fury. Now this comes into play, when a assault mech is simply too slow, and has too many torso mounted weapons to deal with a leg humping Jenner, I'm sure everyone has experienced this, A SRM Jenner runs right beneath your firing capabilities, and blows your shins off. Worse so if they can get behind you, or if you're stuck against a backdrop of terrain, and you can't move past the Jenner.

The fix is simple, larger mechs need the ability to stomp/collide with these little pest. The system applies a % increase to collision damage based on both mechs' sizes. An assault moving against a Jenner for example, would do massive amounts of damage, and if the Jenner doesn't back off, possible destruction.

Besides, can anyone argue why a light mech would ever get right next to an assault mech's legs realistically? To me that seems like a bid for assisted suicide.

Edited by Jerry McMasters, 28 May 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[Bud Crue]

OP, think you need to change the title of the thread, cuz your post seems to have nothing to do with LRM Boats.

[The Wolfpack75]

Light mechs have very few moments to shine in the game right now, taking away the few advantages they have because you are unable to swat them aside in an assault isn't reasonable. Find a buddy and have them pilot a medium to guard your flank or ditch assaults for now and pilot mediums yourself.

And I heartily agree with Bud Crue

[Jerry McMasters]

Bud Crue, on 28 May 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

OP, think you need to change the title of the thread, cuz your post seems to have nothing to do with LRM Boats.

Right, I messed up there.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Now, before you dismiss me as a whiner or flamer, listen to this.
I'm definitely not saying that light mechs in themselves are overpowered, neither are SRMs. However, the issue lies in the fact that there is a key strategy for skilled SRM boats, specifically the Jenner both IIC and IS hero variants.

There's more than one point in this thread, there's an honest question, and there's a suggestion. Jenners are one of the shortest light mechs you can drive, easily ducking under some of the taller mechs, escaping their fury. Now this comes into play, when a assault mech is simply too slow, and has too many torso mounted weapons to deal with a leg humping Jenner, I'm sure everyone has experienced this, A SRM Jenner runs right beneath your firing capabilities, and blows your shins off. Worse so if they can get behind you, or if you're stuck against a backdrop of terrain, and you can't move past the Jenner.

The fix is simple, larger mechs need the ability to stomp/collide with these little pest. The system applies a % increase to collision damage based on both mechs' sizes. An assault moving against a Jenner for example, would do massive amounts of damage, and if the Jenner doesn't back off, possible destruction.

Besides, can anyone argue why a light mech would ever get right next to an assault mech's legs realistically? To me that seems like a bid for assisted suicide.

I don't agree with the massive damage part, but sure, collisions that function would be nice. Personally I think they might cause some annoyance in the start but on the whole they will make sheer mech piloting more rewarding.

All of this, naturally, depends on collisions being implemented correctly (as in no brushing against someone at 40 kph and getting knocked down etc)

Also please keep in mind that powerful short range mechs that have the speed to flank keep things a lot less campy and stale than they otherwise would be.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 28 May 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[Jerry McMasters]

The Wolfpack75, on 28 May 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Light mechs have very few moments to shine in the game right now, taking away the few advantages they have because you are unable to swat them aside in an assault isn't reasonable. Find a buddy and have them pilot a medium to guard your flank or ditch assaults for now and pilot mediums yourself.

And I heartily agree with Bud Crue

To argue that they have few advantages is not quite honest. They have speed, and small size to their advantage, they can take cover, peak shot, and dodge projectile weapons just fine as is.

It's ridiculous however, to support the fact that they can literally stand next to a 100 ton mech, themselves being 35 tons, and completely halt movement, so far as to resist the force of a 100 ton mech attempting to surpass them. It's not a particularly necessary advantage. Light mechs shouldn't be face tanking assault mechs, they should be moving at a fair distance from them, using their ungodly turning speed as an advantage. That's where the SRM boat light mech would be fairly useful.

Marmon Rzohr, on 28 May 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

I don't agree with the massive damage part, but sure, collisions that function would be nice. Personally I think they might cause some annoyance in the start but on the whole they will make sheer mech piloting more rewarding.

All of this, naturally, depends on collisions being implemented correctly (as in no brushing against someone at 40 kph and getting knocked down etc)

The massive damage is purely correlated with the idea of an assault mech being able to drop it's 50 (Give or take.) tons of weight on a light mech. (Not that the leg is 50 tons, but that leg supports 50 tons of weight give or take based on distribution.)

[Mawai]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Now, before you dismiss me as a whiner or flamer, listen to this.
I'm definitely not saying that light mechs in themselves are overpowered, neither are SRMs. However, the issue lies in the fact that there is a key strategy for skilled SRM boats, specifically the Jenner both IIC and IS hero variants.

There's more than one point in this thread, there's an honest question, and there's a suggestion. Jenners are one of the shortest light mechs you can drive, easily ducking under some of the taller mechs, escaping their fury. Now this comes into play, when a assault mech is simply too slow, and has too many torso mounted weapons to deal with a leg humping Jenner, I'm sure everyone has experienced this, A SRM Jenner runs right beneath your firing capabilities, and blows your shins off. Worse so if they can get behind you, or if you're stuck against a backdrop of terrain, and you can't move past the Jenner.

The fix is simple, larger mechs need the ability to stomp/collide with these little pest. The system applies a % increase to collision damage based on both mechs' sizes. An assault moving against a Jenner for example, would do massive amounts of damage, and if the Jenner doesn't back off, possible destruction.

Besides, can anyone argue why a light mech would ever get right next to an assault mech's legs realistically? To me that seems like a bid for assisted suicide.

The fix is even simpler than that ...

Have a wing man.

Assaults are NOT solo mechs. They are not SOLO gods of the battefield. Learn that, repeat it.

IF an assault has a team mate shooting at a stationary leg humping Jenner of any flavour ... that Jenner dies very quickly.

Finally, arm weapons have no problems with depressing their aim to hit a Jenner right in front of them. You will have convergence issues in that the weapons won't all hit the same spot but they will hit. If the Jenner stays there they die especially if the assault is moving appropriately to minimize the Jenner advantages ... this usually means backing up while turning to increase your traversal rate relative to a light mech running across your field of view. Changing direction can also help catch the light faster.

In any case, the problem is not that your assault should be able to stomp flat any little nuisance if you happened to not load weapons to deal with it ... the problem is that the assault, for whatever reason, chose to forsake the cover of team mates which makes the whole issue moot.

P.S. All that said, I wouldn't mind if collisions did a bit more damage ... but distributed equally between the two mechs ... they are made of the same materials and have similar structural integrity. Proportionally, more damage would be done to the light since they have less armor/structure but if the collision causes 10 damage to one mech, the same should be done to the other.

Edited by Mawai, 28 May 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[TercieI]

Can't have viable lights mechs. Nope nope nope.

Sigh.

[Alistair Winter]

It's a good question. I hope people will discuss this in a civilized manner.

I would say that they are not overpowered, but...

• The Oxide structure quirks are overpowered. It's arguably the most durable of all 35-ton mechs. Of all of them, including Ravens, Firestarters, Panthers, Wolfhounds, etc. Oxide is most durable. Does it have to be? And do these structure quirks make SRM boating look more powerful than it is?
  
• The Jenner IIC with 6xSRM4 or 6xSRM6 has a monstrous alpha strike for a light mech, but is very fragile. This makes it situationally powerful. High risk, high reward. Is this good balancing? I would say... maybe yes. Same as a dual gauss mech. High risk, high reward.

However, there are times where "situationally powerful" is not a good way of balancing the game. For example, LRMs could be OP even with 180 meter minimum range. Clan Streakboats could be OP, even though they're only truly dangerous against light and medium mechs. Why?

If you make a mech that basically automatically wins in certain conditions (e.g. Streakcrow vs Locust) then the game is not balanced correctly. Because this is not rock, paper, scissors. The game is boring if it comes down to a random chance of running into the auto-win enemy or the auto-lose enemy. A 6xSRM6 Jenner IIC should not automatically win against a Dire Wolf, for example. That would be an indication of poor balancing.

But although 6SRM Jenner IICs are powerful, I don't think they are quite powerful enough to auto-win against any other mechs. The Oxide needs to have weaker structure quirks. There's no reason why the Oxide should be the most durable of all 35 ton mechs.

On a final note... one big problem with both the Oxide and Jenner IIC is that they're both hilariously powerful against other light mechs. This is a problem. They're both incredibly fast, they can both basically 1-shot other light mechs with Inner Sphere XL engines. It's simply too easy. I'm not quite sure how to fix this.

[Jerry McMasters]

Mawai, on 28 May 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

The fix is even simpler than that ...

Have a wing man.

Assaults are NOT solo mechs. They are not SOLO gods of the battefield. Learn that, repeat it.

IF an assault has a team mate shooting at a stationary leg humping Jenner of any flavour ... that Jenner dies very quickly.

Finally, arm weapons have no problems with depressing their aim to hit a Jenner right in front of them. You will have convergence issues in that the weapons won't all hit the same spot but they will hit. If the Jenner stays there they die especially if the assault is moving appropriately to minimize the Jenner advantages ... this usually means backing up while turning to increase your traversal rate relative to a light mech running across your field of view. Changing direction can also help catch the light faster.

In any case, the problem is not that your assault should be able to stomp flat any little nuisance if you happened to not load weapons to deal with it ... the problem is that the assault, for whatever reason, chose to forsake the cover of team mates which makes the whole issue moot.

P.S. All that said, I wouldn't mind if collisions did a bit more damage ... but distributed equally between the two mechs ... they are made of the same materials and have similar structural integrity. Proportionally, more damage would be done to the light since they have less armor/structure but if the collision causes 10 damage to one mech, the same should be done to the other.

What a sharp tone, as if you're speaking down to me. I'd like it if everyone on this thread spoke to each other as equals, thank you kindly.

Besides the irritable tat, you're right, but you've completely ignored the entire issue. I never said lights were overpowered and needed to be nerfed. I said that the ability for a light mech to block it's 100 ton counterpart and shoot it's shins off with SRM alpha, is ridiculous. Light mechs are mean't to strife around the assault and rip open it's less armored rear, that's when your whole buddy system works properly.

Also, there is a difference structurally between a 35 ton mech, and a 100 ton mech. I highly disagree that the collision between the two should be identical. That's like saying a 10 pound steel ball would deal just as much kinetic damage as a 28 pound steel ball rolling at the same speed towards a brick wall. The size really does matter.\

Also, I know how assault mechs are mean't to be played, there's different situations, in which they fill a different roles.

Edited by Jerry McMasters, 28 May 2016 - 10:06 AM.

[kapusta11]

Alistair Winter, on 28 May 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

It's a good question. I hope people will discuss this in a civilized manner.

I would say that they are not overpowered, but...

• The Oxide structure quirks are overpowered. It's arguably the most durable of all 35-ton mechs. Of all of them, including Ravens, Firestarters, Panthers, Wolfhounds, etc. Oxide is most durable. Does it have to be? And do these structure quirks make SRM boating look more powerful than it is?
  
• The Jenner IIC with 6xSRM4 or 6xSRM6 has a monstrous alpha strike for a light mech, but is very fragile. This makes it situationally powerful. High risk, high reward. Is this good balancing? I would say... maybe yes. Same as a dual gauss mech. High risk, high reward.

However, there are times where "situationally powerful" is not a good way of balancing the game. For example, LRMs could be OP even with 180 meter minimum range. Clan Streakboats could be OP, even though they're only truly dangerous against light and medium mechs. Why?




If you make a mech that basically automatically wins in certain conditions (e.g. Streakcrow vs Locust) then the game is not balanced correctly. Because this is not rock, paper, scissors. The game is boring if it comes down to a random chance of running into the auto-win enemy or the auto-lose enemy. A 6xSRM6 Jenner IIC should not automatically win against a Dire Wolf, for example. That would be an indication of poor balancing.

But although 6SRM Jenner IICs are powerful, I don't think they are quite powerful enough to auto-win against any other mechs. The Oxide needs to have weaker structure quirks. There's no reason why the Oxide should be the most durable of all 35 ton mechs.

On a final note... one big problem with both the Oxide and Jenner IIC is that they're both hilariously powerful against other light mechs. This is a problem. They're both incredibly fast, they can both basically 1-shot other light mechs with Inner Sphere XL engines. It's simply too easy. I'm not quite sure how to fix this.

About the Oxide, just how durable normal Jenners really are? Like, how fast they die? Because Oxide has exactly 33% more total HP so if the answer to the previous question was "fast" then Oxides die "fast x 1.33". Not that game breaking if you ask me.

As for Oxides and Jenner IICs being better that other lights, better at what? Ravens and Panthers are pretty good harassers while Firestarters and Cheetahs have much smaller hitboxes than Jenners meaning that they have a bit more staying power against heavier mechs at the cost of reduced firepower.

As someone who rarely pilots a light I like lights being strong, dealing with them should require some effort and not just one alpha after which it will just run away with cored CT, ST or stripped leg. Not to mention that it encourages people to bring more FLD weapons and not just lasers.

Edited by kapusta11, 28 May 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Jerry McMasters]

Alistair Winter, on 28 May 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

It's a good question. I hope people will discuss this in a civilized manner.

I would say that they are not overpowered, but...

• The Oxide structure quirks are overpowered. It's arguably the most durable of all 35-ton mechs. Of all of them, including Ravens, Firestarters, Panthers, Wolfhounds, etc. Oxide is most durable. Does it have to be? And do these structure quirks make SRM boating look more powerful than it is?
  
• The Jenner IIC with 6xSRM4 or 6xSRM6 has a monstrous alpha strike for a light mech, but is very fragile. This makes it situationally powerful. High risk, high reward. Is this good balancing? I would say... maybe yes. Same as a dual gauss mech. High risk, high reward.

However, there are times where "situationally powerful" is not a good way of balancing the game. For example, LRMs could be OP even with 180 meter minimum range. Clan Streakboats could be OP, even though they're only truly dangerous against light and medium mechs. Why?


If you make a mech that basically automatically wins in certain conditions (e.g. Streakcrow vs Locust) then the game is not balanced correctly. Because this is not rock, paper, scissors. The game is boring if it comes down to a random chance of running into the auto-win enemy or the auto-lose enemy. A 6xSRM6 Jenner IIC should not automatically win against a Dire Wolf, for example. That would be an indication of poor balancing.

But although 6SRM Jenner IICs are powerful, I don't think they are quite powerful enough to auto-win against any other mechs. The Oxide needs to have weaker structure quirks. There's no reason why the Oxide should be the most durable of all 35 ton mechs.

On a final note... one big problem with both the Oxide and Jenner IIC is that they're both hilariously powerful against other light mechs. This is a problem. They're both incredibly fast, they can both basically 1-shot other light mechs with Inner Sphere XL engines. It's simply too easy. I'm not quite sure how to fix this.

You make a perfectly agreeable point, but it's not quite what I was thinking, see the issue for a Jenner alpha striking a Dire Wolf to death would be fixed with high damage collisions based on weight. Or stomping, which I will explain.

Stomping as I'm going to try and suggest, is when a light mech literally hugs a assault mech's leg, cancelling center torso fire, and in some cases, even accurate arm mounted fire. So when this larger mech moves against the light mech, it basically punts, or steps on, the light mech. Dealing considerable damage, and deterring the light mech.

Like I said, I really don't think that the light mechs need this advantage, it's unrealistic, and very unbalanced.

[Jerry McMasters]

kapusta11, on 28 May 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

About the Oxide, just how durable normal Jenners really are? Like, how fast they die? Because Oxide has exactly 33% more total HP so if the answer to the previous question was "fast" then Oxides die "fast x 1.33". Not that game breaking if you ask me.

As for Oxides and Jenner IICs being better that other lights, better at what? Ravens and Panthers are pretty good harassers while Firestarters and Cheetahs have much smaller hitboxes than Jenners meaning that they have a bit more staying power against heavier mechs at the cost of reduced firepower.

As someone who rarely pilots a light I like lights being strong, dealing with them should require some effort and not just one alpha after which it will just run away with cored CT, ST or stripped leg. Not to mention that it encourages people to bring more FLD weapons and not just lasers.

33% and you discredit it as a large advantage? Not sure where your reasoning is held there. That's quite a sizable number if you ask me.

For example, in a game where everyone has 100 health, one person has 133 health instead, and the weapons deal about 8 damage a shot.

Instead of the regular 13 shots for a kill, it now takes 17 shots. Even worse, there's a 3 second interval between each shot, meaning it would take 39 seconds to deal with a regular enemy, but it takes a whopping 51 seconds to deal with the other. That's accounting for landing every shot.

Any advantage is an unfair advantage. To lesser or greater degrees. So my friend, I disagree.

[jaxjace]

I wouldnt say they are overpowered per SE,

Some things are a little iffy but meh. The oxide is a jesus mech currently and it is due for some nerfing but i dont want yet another sledgehammer nerf, they should dial back some of its quirks slowly. Lights in general are in a weird spot because they arent really SUPPOSED to be fighters but scouts, however in a game where we dont have active passive radar and different sensor suites for different mechs the scouting role is useless on most maps, since most mechs are fast enogh to do their own scouting. That leaves them the backstab and escort role, at backstabbing only half of the lights are able to do well there, firestarters, jenners, cheetahs, etc. others like the raven, adder, kit fox, are more inclined to be escorts, hoping that the enemy will target the big things next to them first so they can get in their damage, others still are practically useless without jesus quirks, spiders, commandos etc.

Thing is, lights are never gonna be the endall be all because all of them (yes even your precious cheeta and 2c jenner) will die in one well placed alpha, that is hard to change, and will continue to see them relegated to the merely "good, but not OP"

[The Amazing Spider Man]

I'm right next to the assault's legs because I can maneuver around them easily, we are sharing the same pebble of cover, and if I leave my lonely chubby friend they'll get LRMed to death. If they're an enemy tub then I'm so close because they're having troubles scraping me off their back armor and I'm using them as cover from the other baddies.

[Jerry McMasters]

The Amazing Spider Man, on 28 May 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

I'm right next to the assault's legs because I can maneuver around them easily, we are sharing the same pebble of cover, and if I leave my lonely chubby friend they'll get LRMed to death. If they're an enemy tub then I'm so close because they're having troubles scraping me off their back armor and I'm using them as cover from the other baddies.

See, you don't maneuver around their legs, if that were the case it'd be fine. In MWO you get glued because of the almost non-existent collision in the game.

jaxjace, on 28 May 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

I wouldnt say they are overpowered per SE,

Some things are a little iffy but meh. The oxide is a jesus mech currently and it is due for some nerfing but i dont want yet another sledgehammer nerf, they should dial back some of its quirks slowly. Lights in general are in a weird spot because they arent really SUPPOSED to be fighters but scouts, however in a game where we dont have active passive radar and different sensor suites for different mechs the scouting role is useless on most maps, since most mechs are fast enogh to do their own scouting. That leaves them the backstab and escort role, at backstabbing only half of the lights are able to do well there, firestarters, jenners, cheetahs, etc. others like the raven, adder, kit fox, are more inclined to be escorts, hoping that the enemy will target the big things next to them first so they can get in their damage, others still are practically useless without jesus quirks, spiders, commandos etc.

Thing is, lights are never gonna be the endall be all because all of them (yes even your precious cheeta and 2c jenner) will die in one well placed alpha, that is hard to change, and will continue to see them relegated to the merely "good, but not OP"

Sadly, due to different pings, alpha strikes on moving light mechs are very unreliable even if you line up the shot perfectly.

Edited by Jerry McMasters, 28 May 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[The Wolfpack75]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

To argue that they have few advantages is not quite honest. They have speed, and small size to their advantage, they can take cover, peak shot, and dodge projectile weapons just fine as is.

That is the definition of a light mech - they are meant to be fast and small - those are their main advantages. Taking cover, peeking, shooting from semi-cover, and avoiding projectile weapons is what every pilot should be doing in the field regardless of mech size. Yes, it is easier for a light mech pilot and I understand the frustration but then as soon as that light mech is legged they are dead.

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

It's ridiculous however, to support the fact that they can literally stand next to a 100 ton mech, themselves being 35 tons, and completely halt movement, so far as to resist the force of a 100 ton mech attempting to surpass them. It's not a particularly necessary advantage. Light mechs shouldn't be face tanking assault mechs, they should be moving at a fair distance from them, using their ungodly turning speed as an advantage. That's where the SRM boat light mech would be fairly useful.

I've had that experience a handful of times and each time it ended with a dead light. Arms can target below your view if you've unlocked them. A light facehugging an assault happens very rarely in matches unless there is a new rash of suicidal light mech pilots out there that I haven't seen.

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

The massive damage is purely correlated with the idea of an assault mech being able to drop it's 50 (Give or take.) tons of weight on a light mech. (Not that the leg is 50 tons, but that leg supports 50 tons of weight give or take based on distribution.)

I agree the collision system needs to be implemented better. However I don't agree that lights should be penalized more because of the rare instances you describe. If an assault mech is going to drop 50 tons onto a light then I would expect the assault to end up prone. We aren't talking about graceful machines that can pirouette here. An assault mech is lucky to move faster than 68 kph and they do that in more of a shuffle than a sprint.

If a light pilot facehugs an assault and somehow wins that encounter then I applaud him. An assault should be able to target the light with one of the 4-20 weapons systems they have at their disposable and remove the obstacle. The light doesn't have enough armor anywhere to take the damage an assault can dish out.

However if the assault is running an LRM only build then they get what they deserve.

[Belacose]

paper scissors rock

[Bud Crue]

Jerry,

I get where you are going with this, but in order for a light (Oxide or otherwise) to take advantage of the leg humping strategy they need to get that close in the first place. If you have a straggler and the light can sneak up behind the Assault, then yes this strategy is sound and may seem unbalanced. But is it any more unbalanced than a Dire Wolf that can one Alpha that light into smithereens if it gets a clear shot when the light is trying to get close?

Edit, as to your subsequent posts above, it seems to me that your real issue is about lack of substantive collision damage. Alas, nature of the game. Just gotta deal with the lack of immersion,etc.

Edited by Bud Crue, 28 May 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Sergeant Soy]

The Commandos are surely not op...