88 replies to this topic

[xe N on]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Jenners are one of the shortest light mechs you can drive, easily ducking under some of the taller mechs, escaping their fury. Now this comes into play, when a assault mech is simply too slow, and has too many torso mounted weapons to deal with a leg humping Jenner, I'm sure everyone has experienced this, A SRM Jenner runs right beneath your firing capabilities, and blows your shins off.

You are right in an 1on1 situation a light can beat an assault easily by this tactic. And you are also right, that is quite physical illogical that a 35 ton can block a 100 ton.

However, I don't see any game breaking element here. An assault mech should never walk alone. Assaults are like aircraft carriers .. they should be permanently defended by smaller units.

In the moment the light blocks an assault this way, the light can't move either. A light that don't move is a dead light. In a good team a light acting this way will die in milliseconds.

If you come into this situation, either you made a mistake in leaving your team or your team made a mistake in leaving you.

In other word: Paper beats Rock. Stay near Scissor.

Edited by xe N on, 28 May 2016 - 11:31 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

I think my Locust 3S should be able to compete with an Oxide, but in general...no, I don't think SRM lights are OP.

[JC Daxion]

Bring back Knockdowns.... I hope that comes with an engine upgrade


I'd even like to see collision damage completely removed.. aka my teammate is an idiot and grazes my leg, and now i lost a bunch of armor.. and perhaps if they see you being knocked down, they might learn to pilot.. Or better yet, give them a -Cbill modifer for every time you knock down your teammate.

[Deathlike]

If you're really worried about SRM mechs, you obviously haven't been smashed by a Griffin-2N/3M enough.

The only reason the Oxide gets the most attention is that its other Jenner counterparts (less so about the Jenner IIC, but just the regular Jenners) is that they are wicked soft, and don't even remotely have ANY of the structure quirks the Oxide does.

Even when quirks started, noone thought to put ANY attention into ANY Jenner, due to its shape.. as the Firestarter was literally a better choice (Firestarter-S quirk for MPL is amazing).

The Light mechs that would normally/nominally field SRMs (Commandos) are really just an afterthought.

While I'd not mind a small structure nerf on the Oxide (moreso that the other Jenners actually GAIN a structure buff), chances are, your situational awareness isn't really up to snuff to handle it properly.

Being tall and/or an Assault mech doesn't shouldn't automatically give you every possible advantage. Most tall mechs usually gain high mounts (Atlas being one of the few that don't really benefit from this).

You have to know your mechs strengths and weaknesses, so if you know an Oxide or whatever SRM boat is coming your way, you need to be prepared either way. Of course, if you didn't know they were coming... the fault is occasionally on you.

It's not my problem when players show their mech's backs to me. They do this because they know their fate (unlikely) or they don't even know I'm there. Situational awareness is generally what changes your own TTK (especially when Seismic is involved).

Edited by Deathlike, 28 May 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[xe N on]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

If you're really worried about SRM mechs, you obviously haven't been smashed by a Griffin-2N/3M enough.

Nah, totally harmless mechs. I think GRFs could need some more quirks

[Jerry McMasters]

The Wolfpack75, on 28 May 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

That is the definition of a light mech - they are meant to be fast and small - those are their main advantages. Taking cover, peeking, shooting from semi-cover, and avoiding projectile weapons is what every pilot should be doing in the field regardless of mech size. Yes, it is easier for a light mech pilot and I understand the frustration but then as soon as that light mech is legged they are dead.



I've had that experience a handful of times and each time it ended with a dead light. Arms can target below your view if you've unlocked them. A light facehugging an assault happens very rarely in matches unless there is a new rash of suicidal light mech pilots out there that I haven't seen.



I agree the collision system needs to be implemented better. However I don't agree that lights should be penalized more because of the rare instances you describe. If an assault mech is going to drop 50 tons onto a light then I would expect the assault to end up prone. We aren't talking about graceful machines that can pirouette here. An assault mech is lucky to move faster than 68 kph and they do that in more of a shuffle than a sprint.

If a light pilot facehugs an assault and somehow wins that encounter then I applaud him. An assault should be able to target the light with one of the 4-20 weapons systems they have at their disposable and remove the obstacle. The light doesn't have enough armor anywhere to take the damage an assault can dish out.

However if the assault is running an LRM only build then they get what they deserve.

Right, I know what a light mech is, thanks for the rundown. I'm simply saying, they do not /deserve/ any more advantages than what they already have.

I'm completely unsure what instances you've been running, but firing the weapons on your arms accurately at a light mech whose rubber banding because of the lack of actual collision is much harder than "Lower your arms and alpha m8" Realistically most assaults tend to have at least two mounts on either arm.

[Weeny Machine]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Now, before you dismiss me as a whiner or flamer, listen to this.
I'm definitely not saying that light mechs in themselves are overpowered, neither are SRMs. However, the issue lies in the fact that there is a key strategy for skilled SRM boats, specifically the Jenner both IIC and IS hero variants.

There's more than one point in this thread, there's an honest question, and there's a suggestion. Jenners are one of the shortest light mechs you can drive, easily ducking under some of the taller mechs, escaping their fury. Now this comes into play, when a assault mech is simply too slow, and has too many torso mounted weapons to deal with a leg humping Jenner, I'm sure everyone has experienced this, A SRM Jenner runs right beneath your firing capabilities, and blows your shins off. Worse so if they can get behind you, or if you're stuck against a backdrop of terrain, and you can't move past the Jenner.

The fix is simple, larger mechs need the ability to stomp/collide with these little pest. The system applies a % increase to collision damage based on both mechs' sizes. An assault moving against a Jenner for example, would do massive amounts of damage, and if the Jenner doesn't back off, possible destruction.

Besides, can anyone argue why a light mech would ever get right next to an assault mech's legs realistically? To me that seems like a bid for assisted suicide.

The only chance a light mech has to be close (also because of their mostly close-range weaponry) to the heavy or assault to even have a chance to stay a little bit outside their firing arcs.

When speed value were overall reduced the heavies and assaults got an agility compensation with quirks. The losers were the light mechs. "Humping" is therefore often necessary. Take that also away - or even punish them for it - and you can trash the whole class.

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

Right, I know what a light mech is, thanks for the rundown. I'm simply saying, they do not /deserve/ any more advantages than what they already have.

I'm completely unsure what instances you've been running, but firing the weapons on your arms accurately at a light mech whose rubber banding because of the lack of actual collision is much harder than "Lower your arms and alpha m8" Realistically most assaults tend to have at least two mounts on either arm.

Which advantages?

1. To get crippled or blow up when one of those huge alphas strikes one solid hit?
2. To get to close through seismic and radar (for non ECM lights) to even use their close-range weaponry?
3. To carry half the armour and (in many cases) half the alpha/dps of a heavy or assault?

Oh, sorry, you mean speed! As I already said already above: Speed which is negated to quite an extend by the agility of the heavies and assaults...yeah, I mean whoopidooo what an advantage! This surly cannot compensated by all the disadvantages listed above

Sarcasn aside: be honest for a second. You think a light should have no chance against a heavy or assault whereas it is totally ok that a light blows up when it eats an alpha of a heavy or assault

Edited by Bush Hopper, 28 May 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[Walsung]

now i'll admit that it is annoying having a location go red for a moments inattention but those buggers can get gutted fast if they screw up.

i am mucking around a bit in a jenner 2c at the moment (first light) and yes i am sure the Mad dog and king crab that i gutted in my last night were probably bitching about how op'd they are but they weren't in the two previous games were i got smashed for minor errors.

if i killed two mechs in my shd or a a heavy no one would think twice.

it's the frustration of not being able to hit them and feeling of hopelessness they induce that is an issue; and considering the difficulty of doing the 50 points required to kill them versus 50 points into an atlas the lack of reward (you can spend half a match stripping 2 lights and keeping them of the assaults but if you don't get the last blow you don't get much).

Edited by Walsung, 28 May 2016 - 01:14 PM.

[The Amazing Spider Man]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

See, you don't maneuver around their legs, if that were the case it'd be fine. In MWO you get glued because of the almost non-existent collision in the game.

"Getting glued" is how the game deals with collisions, which causes very existent leg damage. If this happens then you're doing it wrong.

See, I do maneuver around their legs without this happening to me. I play hardwired to my 120mbps download, 25mbps upload speed interwebs and use my spidey sense.

[Ultimax]

TercieI, on 28 May 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Can't have viable lights mechs. Nope nope nope.

Sigh.

I think there needs to be some middle ground in "viable land" between commandos & locusts on one end of the potato spectrum and Jenner IICs & Oxides capable of one or two shotting mechs from being with enormous SRM alphas (6xSRM6 IIC) or generating upwards of 16 DPS +structure/agility/firepower quirks (oxide).


I feel the old ACH, FS9-S - when both had their best quirks were the right zone for what a light should be capable of.

They were fast relatively survivable through size and agility and had good firepower that also required heat management and not just relentlessly hammering things with missiles or getting off a one-shot kill from behind because a big mech can't realistically protect it's own back all of the time without just turtling against a wall (and even then an Oxide can cut your legs down faster than most mechs can kill it or before they hit their heat cap).


I know light mechs have issues as a class, but having two light mechs that are basically auto-win at short range vs. almost every mech in their own class, mechs in medium weight class and even many heavy and assault mechs is not the right way to balance the class - in fact it just reduces the value of every other light.

Edited by Ultimax, 28 May 2016 - 03:17 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Ultimax, on 28 May 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

I think there needs to be some middle ground in "viable land" between commandos & locusts on one end of the potato spectrum and Jenner IICs & Oxides capable of one or two shotting mechs from being with enormous SRM alphas (6xSRM6 IIC) or generating upwards of 16 DPS +structure/agility/firepower quirks (oxide).

Unfortunately, it won't matter if the comp leagues keep balancing by class and not tonnage when the game is attempting to balance by tonnage. Everybody will still just take the top.

[Jables McBarty]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

Right, I know what a light mech is, thanks for the rundown. I'm simply saying, they do not /deserve/ any more advantages than what they already have.

Good, I'm glad that we agree that we don't need to make any changes to lights.



And remember, leg-humping srm light pilots are people too....

[Ultimax]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 May 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

Unfortunately, it won't matter if the comp leagues keep balancing by class and not tonnage when the game is attempting to balance by tonnage. Everybody will still just take the top.

MRBC has both tonnage based and class based drops, but it doesn't matter.

The matches where those lights make a difference they are basically an auto-include because of their power and teams will usually find the measly 5 tons somewhere to fit them in.

Balance by tonnage is also irrelevant in the solo queue and for the most part the group queue when you're only talking about 5 or 10 tons here and there to squeeze in Oxides or JR7-IICs who are clearly hitting way above their own actual tonnage (i.e. both of them provide way more than 35 tons of value).

[Y E O N N E]

Ultimax, on 28 May 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

MRBC has both tonnage based and class based drops, but it doesn't matter.

The matches where those lights make a difference they are basically an auto-include because of their power and teams will usually find the measly 5 tons somewhere to fit them in.

Balance by tonnage is also irrelevant in the solo queue and for the most part the group queue when you're only talking about 5 or 10 tons here and there to squeeze in Oxides or JR7-IICs who are clearly hitting way above their own actual tonnage (i.e. both of them provide way more than 35 tons of value).

I think you read right past my point.

The point is that as long as some lights are better than others (which you can read as "as long as certain lights don't have a niche where they are as strong as another would be in its own niche"), then the top ones will always be chosen regardless. This is because PGI keeps the lighter 'Mechs of any class down while 'Mechs are typically chosen on a "what's best in the class" basis.

I guess my question is, are you proposing all lights be in that middle ground, or are you saying that we should retain some extremes? Because I may be reading that wrong.

[Mystere]

JC Daxion, on 28 May 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Bring back Knockdowns.... I hope that comes with an engine upgrade

Engine upgrade? Barring any concrete proof to the contrary, I suspect all that talk from PGI is nothing by pure hokey. The chatter is only there to hook people into .... buying more Mech packs. <shrugs>

[Mavairo]

Vomit SRMs right back at them.... Or IS Pulse weapons...

Or CLBX
or IS ACs...

Or even freakin PPCs.
Maybe you should open up your weapon selection to things that do their dmg or most their dmg the moment they hit the target.

Edited by Mavairo, 28 May 2016 - 04:26 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Alistair Winter, on 28 May 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

It's a good question. I hope people will discuss this in a civilized manner.

I would say that they are not overpowered, but...

• The Oxide structure quirks are overpowered. It's arguably the most durable of all 35-ton mechs. Of all of them, including Ravens, Firestarters, Panthers, Wolfhounds, etc. Oxide is most durable. Does it have to be? And do these structure quirks make SRM boating look more powerful than it is?
  
• The Jenner IIC with 6xSRM4 or 6xSRM6 has a monstrous alpha strike for a light mech, but is very fragile. This makes it situationally powerful. High risk, high reward. Is this good balancing? I would say... maybe yes. Same as a dual gauss mech. High risk, high reward.

However, there are times where "situationally powerful" is not a good way of balancing the game. For example, LRMs could be OP even with 180 meter minimum range. Clan Streakboats could be OP, even though they're only truly dangerous against light and medium mechs. Why?


If you make a mech that basically automatically wins in certain conditions (e.g. Streakcrow vs Locust) then the game is not balanced correctly. Because this is not rock, paper, scissors. The game is boring if it comes down to a random chance of running into the auto-win enemy or the auto-lose enemy. A 6xSRM6 Jenner IIC should not automatically win against a Dire Wolf, for example. That would be an indication of poor balancing.

But although 6SRM Jenner IICs are powerful, I don't think they are quite powerful enough to auto-win against any other mechs. The Oxide needs to have weaker structure quirks. There's no reason why the Oxide should be the most durable of all 35 ton mechs.

On a final note... one big problem with both the Oxide and Jenner IIC is that they're both hilariously powerful against other light mechs. This is a problem. They're both incredibly fast, they can both basically 1-shot other light mechs with Inner Sphere XL engines. It's simply too easy. I'm not quite sure how to fix this.

This is the problem that I've been screaming about since closed beta. The concept of a simple engine cap formula for all mechs is ridiculous. Given the power of the Jenner versus all Light mechs, why is it as fast as all of the other Light mechs while having superior firepower? The only Lights that the Jenner doesn't keep pace with is the Locust and the Commando and both of those mechs got significant engine cap increases because they couldn't stand toe to toe with the Jenner. Hell, the Jenner is a more powerful mech than its 5 ton heavier cousin, the Cicada, while having a much lesser to-hit profile.

To the OP's point, SRMs are extremely powerful on two platforms: something that is extremely small and fast that can put a lot of them on their (read: this is why the SRM Locust and Commando suck - they can't fit as much on their frames while maintaining survivibility) OR you put it on something slow and extremely durable that can pack them in mass quantities (read: brawler Atlas). There isn't a lot of in between because they either don't make a mech that is 100% missiles or they do but the size profile/lack of speed prevents it from being prolific and capable. Everyone used to fear the Splat Cat but that was back when there were only like 10 mechs in the game. The lack of mechs meant that there was a lack of weapon combinations which meant that they weren't kept in check. Look at today's game and you don't see them.

[Nerdboard]

Imo both Oxide and missile-JennerIIC are a lot too powerful at the moment.

In my games they usually tend to be in the top damage quarter without actually having to work very hard for it. Hitregistration still plays a role here no matter how much it has improved over the last year. Other lights obviously also profit from it but simply do not have the same devastating (and quite ridiculous) dps.

I am however not sure if you want to take that as an example to implement easier light-counter mechanisms. Because if you do that, what are the Spiders, Commandos etc going to do? Killing an assault in one of those still is a risky challenge.

Personally I would rather see the strong light missile boats get nerfed back to the level of the Cheetah, Firestarter or Energy JennerIIC. Not exactly sure how that'd be done though.

[Cabusha]

I remember there being some damn good light pilots in closed beta because collisions and a knock down could be near fatal.

On the other hand, good light pilots could also jump jet and knock an Atlas on its *** if he hit at full speed. Was pretty dope.

Now your typical light pilot just unloads on a pilot and teleports through their legs on impact. It's pretty ******.

[Ultimax]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 May 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

I think you read right past my point.

The point is that as long as some lights are better than others (which you can read as "as long as certain lights don't have a niche where they are as strong as another would be in its own niche"), then the top ones will always be chosen regardless. This is because PGI keeps the lighter 'Mechs of any class down while 'Mechs are typically chosen on a "what's best in the class" basis.

I guess my question is, are you proposing all lights be in that middle ground, or are you saying that we should retain some extremes? Because I may be reading that wrong.

They don't keep them down bud, it's inherent in the Battletech system.

Look at some of the quirks the really bad light mechs have gotten, how extreme does it need to go before they are viable - and is that number also just ridiculous?

They only thing that could be done at this point is give a personal or team wide cbill bonus for those lesser mechs as a quasi "low resource use" bonus.