26 replies to this topic

[Tina Benoit]

Happy Tuesday MechWarriors!

We're currently looking into Faction Play Maps, specifically at Emerald Taiga right now and we've got a fairly new forum section on Map Feedback that we'd like to have more content to read up on.

This is just a little request that if you've got any feedback on Emerald Taiga, please visit the Map Feedback sub-forum and share your thoughts!

Thank you very much!


PS: Yesterday was a Holiday called Civic Day here~ ^^

[Jables McBarty]

Tina Benoit, on 02 August 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

Happy Tuesday MechWarriors!

We're currently looking into Faction Play Maps, specifically at Emerald Taiga right now and we've got a fairly new forum section on Map Feedback that we'd like to have more content to read up on.

This is just a little request that if you've got any feedback on Emerald Taiga, please visit the Map Feedback sub-forum and share your thoughts!

Thank you very much!


PS: Yesterday was a Holiday called Civic Day here~ ^^

Thanks Tina!

Might this be a prelude to more FW maps...?

[Tina Benoit]

Yes, please feel free to contribute feedback to the other FP Maps too. All the other one's feedback will be reviewed as well.

[Revis Volek]

Tina Benoit, on 02 August 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yes, please feel free to contribute feedback to the other FP Maps too. All the other one's feedback will be reviewed as well.

The major thing i would like to see is to get rid of the DOTA and forced path, linear maps and create a more open, real world map.

The base should have a few side with gates on each which allow the attacker to use the element of surprise a bit more. The tunnels of death currently are lame and should really be changed.

[aniviron]

Okay, so here's the thing. As far as CW maps go right now, it's really not bad. Feels pretty even between the attackers and defenders, there are multiple viable routes (unlike some maps where every route but one is suicide) there are good places for attackers to force a brawl or to force mid range engagements. The only real complaint I have about the map in the current context of the Invasion game mode and the other maps is the fact that O-Gen 2 can be sniped from outside very easily, even after a patch that was supposed to address this issue. I'm also not super keen on the fact that it is very easy for the defenders to camp the spawn ridge with ER LLs, even though it's not the most effective tactic the gameplay of it isn't fun.

That said, rather than making tiny tweaks to a map that already works pretty well in its current situation, I'd rather see new maps that don't follow the DOTA lane philosophy, maps with other objectives like escort, recon, or even just having different things to blow up. If the feedback the devs are looking for is what I think it is, then the map is pretty much fine as is. But I don't think that's the kind of gameplay improvements people are looking for. Most people I speak with seem to want a map that has real choice in how you attack instead of "one of two/three lanes, always in the front of the base." I'm not sure how you could change Emerald Taiga to do that without remaking the map in its entirely, sort of how Alpine Peaks became Polar Highlands.

[Mcgral18]

Trees are arguably too short, the foliage gets in the way more than it should.


I want to be able to see robots, so I can shoot robots...

[ScarecrowES]

http://mwomercs.com/...well-ever-need/

I think you'll find more support for scrubbing the Invasion mode outright rather than updating current Invasion maps. I hate to be a debbie-downer, but the map design flaws that players dislike most about Invasion maps are required by the Invasion mode in order to function. You won't be able change those features.

It may be time to consider where the investment is best spent - updating a fundementally flawed mode and map design, or starting over.

I think if your interest is to attract more players to FP - to make it the default mode for MWO - you MUST drop Invasion. Merely updating the maps won't do the trick.

My proposal, linked above, is a detailed outline for a gameplay mode adaptation that's been called for quite a bit here on the forums over the years, and has a lot of positive interest from the player base. And perhaps of particular interest to the development staff, MWO's current systems are readily adaptable to the game mode, meaning reduced investment to impliment.

[Deathlike]

Revis Volek, on 02 August 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

The major thing i would like to see is to get rid of the DOTA and forced path, linear maps and create a more open, real world map.

The base should have a few side with gates on each which allow the attacker to use the element of surprise a bit more. The tunnels of death currently are lame and should really be changed.

Less funnel and more fun in the way of approaches to attack Omega...

It could be literally said for every freaking map - even Hellbore Springs that has the "widest" of entrance distances (or Vitric Forge with the worst tight locations of the entrances) that is still relatively easy to counter by the defense (and just onerous for the attacking team in general).

[Ted Wayz]

Is this in addition to the feedback on FW maps that has been given since it was released? Has that already been considered or do we need to re-create the posts?

[Johnny Z]

Emerald Taiga is already good, worth many many play throughs. Some tanks and dropship attacks would be nice.

ECM towers and other interesting assets of course to.

Edited by Johnny Z, 02 August 2016 - 04:36 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Without choke points there's no effective way to force the attackers into a fight and prevent a gen rush.

Fundamental problem is that most people don't want to push - they want peek/poke gameplay so they can try not to get shot.

Units win consistently on attack because they push in and roll the other team. Pugs get crushed because most of them want to hide and shoot while their teammates get focused down. It's a fear vs aggression dynamic and the scared side gets eaten.

Honestly? Add a narrow pass way on the north side that could let some attackers bypass the hates completely and get in but in a narrow, rocky space.

Something akin to this, ways to bypass choke points with light/medium mechs for flanking would shake up the dynamic a bit.

[Kamikaze Viking]

Emerald Taiga, Grim Portico and Vitric forge are probably the better FW maps and should be left alone for now until AFTER they've learned from fixing Boreal Vault, Sulfurous Rift and Hellebore Springs. These 3 maps suffer worst from Chokepoint syndrome.

Emerald Taiga works better because there is good cover right inside the chokepoints that allows pushes get past a firing line inside the gates.

If anything a quick fix to Emerald Taiga by making a building taller to stop people sniping O-Gen 2 from outside the gates.

[justcallme A S H]

Boreal Vault is the map that needs attention before any other.

[NGxT]

The biggest problem that Taiga has is that the attacker side has 3 very spread spawn points still. The defenders, once they kill any sort of attacker wave (this even includes having lost the initial 12 v 12 and needed their second wave of 12 to clean up) get to push out the gates and set up near or on top of one of the corner spawn points. This forces the attacker side to engage in piecemeal and are easy pickings for focus fire from the defender side. Please, consolidate the spawn points for the attackers. There is absolutely no reason for the attackers to spawn so far apart. It contributes nothing offensively in terms of both tactical advantage or meaningful decision making, and encourages dropship spawn rushing from the defenders.

Another major problem lies in how Taiga's gates are set up for the defenders. Every other map with the exclusion of Taiga and Boreal have very sharp turns and corridors near the gate entrance on the defender side which prevents a solid firing line from being built with 12 mechs all able to focus into the gates at about 400m range. The other maps either force the defenders to get uncomfortably close to actually hold the gate, or have very little actual space to place mechs in with LoS, forcing overcrowding. At least on Boreal, the attacker side can get angles from up top to shoot down at the defender's firing line because of direct LoS from the ramps. Taiga has no such ramps close to the gates, and the hills are at the wrong angle to allow any return fire lines to the center area of Taiga between the gates. This allows a defending team to stack in the middle gap, using the buildings and the shelf close to the gate ridge wall and build a firing line that can all point guns at the gate, while the attackers can only get LoS by actually moving through the gate. The attackers need to push through the gate at a severe disadvantage, even if they choose to push past, there is not enough cover to allow the mechs to get away in any sort of meaningful way. Once they are through the gates, there is very little actual cover to then take, and nowhere to build a firing line to receive the defender mechs who will move from their position to push into the rear of the attacking force that moved through. The defender always has the advantage.

To deal with those problems, the attackers need a ramp to a plateau near the gates on the outside that have LoS to the center area of the defenders, near the edge of the buildings. Not enough room to place a lot of mechs, just a few, enough to discourage the center camp by allowing a few mechs to pick and poke at the center fire line using angles if they are going to be static and in the open, waiting for a push. I would look at Boreal's gate ramps and use those as a template for the ideal ramp size. The lack of cover once inside needs to be addressed. This is less an issue on the D4 side, as there is at least an S ridge immediately, even if its a bad position to take and try to defend. A second ridgeline at the building that can be used as cover to build a firing line to receive the chasing defender mechs would be a huge help. The F4 side is merely a killing field. There is no cover in range by the time the defender mechs are pushing into the attacker's rear. F3 is much too far away to use as cover, and is too steep to use a ridgeline to defend with. The low buildings are also tucked in too close to the center that you cannot get a good angle back towards the gate from there, as well as just being too low to use as proper cover in general. F4 needs real cover that can be used to build a firing line on, like a low ridge. Even just mirroring the north side S ridge would be acceptable here.

When I played with KCom against other good premades like 228 on Taiga, it was by far the most unbalanced map. This is the easiest map to exploit to defenders advantage out of all the CW maps. Just because you don't see it from pug matches because you actually need to move with purpose to exploit it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This map is garbage when you have real 12 mans playing it.

Edited by NGxT, 03 August 2016 - 12:33 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

It might be a good idea for the posters here to put their feedback in the subforum created for feedback on the map: http://mwomercs.com/...-emerald-taiga/ if they want the map makers to read their comments.

Edited by Rampage, 03 August 2016 - 01:33 AM.

[Navid A1]

Here is a quick mock up of my suggestion for a general approach for FW maps

Edited by Navid A1, 03 August 2016 - 01:38 AM.

[F1oyd]

Apart from general improvement of all cw maps i'd like to see different 'skins' for all maps. For example Hellebore, Sulfurous Rift, etc with snow and ice and corresponding weather conditions/temperatures. Or GrimPortico and other maps under a blue moon and a lot hotter than they are now. So we can have pretty consistend conditions dropping on one planet. That way you could have have more of a feeling of fighting at one specific planet. At the moment it is everywhere the same. The name of a planet or the plaet infos really don't matter and make no difference at all. It is just everywhere the same.

It would be nice to have every map with a few random variations. A hill here and a few buildings there. Just to have some more variety.

In general i agree with navids post and a lot of things being said on the forums here and on reddit. Avoid choke points, avoid positions for firing lines covering every possible way the enemy could come, fix invisible walls, i like the idea of choosing between different options when respawning, fighting about different smaller goals on the map like remote sensors or generators for turrets that maybe even can be restored by holding a cap-zone,

Every feature and imrovement that strengthens immerson and the variety of gameplay is absolutely welcome. And btw. imo there are worse maps than Emerald Taiga. Boringeal Vault, Sulfurous Rift or Hellebore Springs for example.

Edited by Floyd Foster, 03 August 2016 - 04:17 AM.

[meteorol]

MischiefSC, on 02 August 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

Units win consistently on attack because they push in and roll the other team. Pugs get crushed because most of them want to hide and shoot while their teammates get focused down. It's a fear vs aggression dynamic and the scared side gets eaten.

Pugs get crushed because in a average pug team ~ 4-6 people are unable to deal more than 400 damage between their 4 mechs. Units attacking against pugs can easily win any way they wish to unless they are utter dogsh*t. Hanging back poking, genrushing, aggressiv push to the spawn and spawnrape, it really doesn't matter.

The vast majority of 48:9 bashs in CW is caused by massiv skill gap between and within teams. CW is full of (especially IS) puggels that simply can't aim, can't torsotwist, can't properly build a mech even after playing this game for years. Lack of aggression is the least of their problems. Aggressive playstyle won't get you anywhere if you can't hit a Kodiak withing 50m. Which a lot of CW puggels can't.

[Idealsuspect]

New FW map ?
Can we have a Solaris map?
With a special gamemode 1 VS 1 ?
No MM just total random. 1 vs 1 duel with exactly same mech ( but personal loadout )... and add a stock mode and add a gladiator mode with high reward for people who want defeat a timber wolf in thier hunchback for example...


FW ?
Well if you want improve FW... give LP bonus for loyalists and remove 25% LP loses if breaking contract.
A new map or a map remix will not change anything at this state.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 03 August 2016 - 02:50 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Not going to participate this time. We gave several pages of feedback for Viridian Bog, and the only thing that was changed was adding a single set of stairs.

Fellow forum warriors may want to consider this before you redesign the whole map from scratch.