37 replies to this topic

[Livaria]

I was doing some research on the heat mechanics and I've made a discovery. Players say that laser vomit is powerful. Yet, the weakness of lasers is supposed to include high heat. So how is it that players are apparently able to manage heat so well? Is it heatsinks, the maps, or mech quirks?

While all of those factors are valid; what could be less discussed; is the powerful bonuses that players can get from the elite tier of the mech skill tree. Players are getting 20% more heat capacity and 15% more heat dissipation.

For those that do not know much about heat capacity or dissipation...*That* is no small bonus. If players believe that mechs have too much of a generous heat threshold, the skill tree could be why. And now I will now ask the question again. Is the skill tree good for gameplay?

It allows players to technically have an advantage over other players that have not yet invested enough experience into a 'mech. It may also interfere with some of the intentional weaknesses of a 'mech or weapon system.

EDIT: Removed the increase values from the skill tree described earlier because of possible inaccurate information.

Edited by Livaria, 23 August 2016 - 11:52 AM.

[FupDup]

Depends on which angle we're going at this from...

From the angle of NPE, then it's not really that great. But then again, look at the module system...

If we take a match full of players who have the skillz tree already unlocked, though, the gameplay is fine.


I would accept the removal of the skillz tree on the basis that all of its bonuses should be rolled into the base stats of every mech. Effectively, everybody would have all of the skillz unlocked by default. The reason for this is because mechs with 0/8 skillz in the tree feel awkward and derpy to play.

However, PGI would lose one of their time and XP sinks, thus they would have to make some other part of the game grindy in order to "encourage" Premium Time purchases.

Edited by FupDup, 20 August 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[Livaria]

I accidentally double posted. I will be using this topic. You can ignore the duplicate.

EDIT:
At least with modules theres sometimes elements of decision making. The skill tree is just a straight upgrade with no sacrifices to be made except for time spent playing.

Edited by Livaria, 20 August 2016 - 03:06 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Apparently, they're working on new skill trees now, so this is a bit moot. But I would have preferred if the current skill tree didn't have those heat bonuses, for sure.

I also liked the nerf to the speed bonus, to be honest. MWO would be a better game without universal speed and dissipation / heat capacity buffs, in my opinion. A little bit less Nascar, a little bit higher TTK.

[627]

don't worry, the current skill tree is just a provisional solution until they can flesh out the skill trees they planned in 2011...

[El Bandito]

Livaria, on 20 August 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

I was doing some research on the heat mechanics and I've made a discovery. Players say that laser vomit is powerful. Yet, the weakness of lasers is supposed to include high heat. So how is it that players are apparently able to manage heat so well? Is it heatsinks, the maps, or mech quirks?

While all of those factors are valid; what could be less discussed; is the powerful bonuses that players can get from the elite tier of the mech skill tree. Players are getting 20% more heat capacity and 15% more heat dissipation.

For those that do not know much about heat capacity or dissipation...*That* is no small bonus. Simply put; the current skill tree is influential enough to set the games balance off-course with big numbers like 20% and 15%. Allow me to put this into perspective.

For heat capacity:

- A mech with 10 SHS gets 42 heat capacity. With the skill tree it gets 50.4

- An IS mech with 10 DHS gets 45 Heat capacity. With the skill tree it gets 54

- An IS mech with 20 DHS gets 60 Heat capacity. With the skill tree it gets 72

For heat dissipation:

- A mech with 10 SHS gets 1.1 Heat dissipation. With the skill tree it gets 1.27

- An IS mech with 10 DHS gets 2 Heat dissipation. With the skill tree it gets 2.3

- An IS mech with 20 DHS gets 3.4 Heat Dissipation.With the skill tree it gets 3.9

It is flawed info, I believe. Heat related skill trees only affect base 10 heatsinks in the engine. Additional heatsinks are not affected.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 August 2016 - 06:47 PM.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 20 August 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

It is flawed info, I believe. Heat related skill trees only affect base 10 heatsinks in the engine. Additional heatsinks are not affected.

No, pretty sure it's everything


It can be tested, of course. Grab an ERPPC and shoot something on a heat neutral map.
Math it out. 15 heat = what percentage, and how that percentage relates to both calculated heat capacities

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 20 August 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

No, pretty sure it's everything

It can be tested, of course. Grab an ERPPC and shoot something on a heat neutral map.
Math it out. 15 heat = what percentage, and how that percentage relates to both calculated heat capacities

Really? Cause I remember reading an article about it, where it said that heat containment and cool run do not affect additional heatsinks. Once I get back from work I can test it out.

[jaxjace]

Ive said since modules and the skill tree were introduced that they were far too powerful and a ******** mechanic that is the greatest threat to new player retention because of the sheer disadvantage they are at.

[Livaria]

What concerns me most is that even if they do change the skill-tree; I'm just about certain that just about nobody knows what is planned for the skill tree. It could end up being more of the same or completely game-changing. A skill tree should be impactful towards player decisions and in the case of MWO, It should be more inclusive than exclusive so that no player feels left out because they haven't progressed enough.

What if I could buy a summoner and spend the maximum amount of points in the skill tree just for buying it? As I start spending points I have to budget them since I can't get everything in a skill tree. If I make a mistake, or change my build. I can spend some C-bills or experience to respend the points. That way, it can be much easier to overcome the gap that some players need to fill.

On the topic of resources and progression; I wouldn't mind a much smaller price for upgrades that just about anyone can buy. a small, affordable, yet impactful price to pay in the grand scheme of things. Right now modules and skills cost quite a bit for just about any player. If a player has nothing to spend, then perhaps it's fitting that a player can earn the required resources quickly just by playing one or two matches, Not ten or more.

Maybe then, players are more willing stick around, especially the newer ones. Players are saying that this is a niche game. But why? How is it that Dota 2 can be so popular and complex? A good reason could be that Mechwarrior Online isn't inclusive enough to the new players. Players have to work a lot more to have more options.

Edited by Livaria, 21 August 2016 - 04:15 PM.

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 20 August 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

It can be tested, of course. Grab an ERPPC and shoot something on a heat neutral map.
Math it out. 15 heat = what percentage, and how that percentage relates to both calculated heat capacities

I'll just give you the data, you do the math. Tested dual CERPPCs on both a non-skilled Mad Dog (with two fixed external DHS) and an elited HBK-IIC-A.

MDD 12 DHS 2xCERPPC 53% heat

MDD 22 DHS 2xCERPPC 43% heat

HBK-IIC 12 DHS 2xCERPPC 47% heat, capacity + 20%

HBK-IIC 22 DHS 2xCERPPC 40% heat, capacity + 20%

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 21 August 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

I'll just give you the data, you do the math. Tested dual CERPPCs on both a non-skilled Mad Dog (with two fixed external DHS) and an elited HBK-IIC-A.

MDD 12 DHS 2xCERPPC 53% heat

MDD 22 DHS 2xCERPPC 43% heat

HBK-IIC 12 DHS 2xCERPPC 47% heat, capacity + 20%

HBK-IIC 22 DHS 2xCERPPC 40% heat, capacity + 20%

Depends which map you chose

Hunch with 12 is 44.6% (VS 47%) with 28/62.64
Without external bonuses, 60+2.2, you get 45% (VS 47%)


Hunch says 28 heat off of a 75.84 heat cap is 37% (VS 40%)
With buffed TrueDubs and gimped PoorDubs, 60+1.1(12) gives a 38% heat rating

MadDog with 12 gives 28/52.2 = 53.6%
With 22, 44.3% with 28/63.2



So....rounding errors? Map errors?
Remember, some maps give a flat bonus to heat cap (cold ones) or negative (hot ones)
Forest is neutral? Canyon?

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 21 August 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

Depends which map you chose

Hunch with 12 is 44.6% (VS 47%) with 28/62.64
Without external bonuses, 60+2.2, you get 45% (VS 47%)


Hunch says 28 heat off of a 75.84 heat cap is 37% (VS 40%)
With buffed TrueDubs and gimped PoorDubs, 60+1.1(12) gives a 38% heat rating

MadDog with 12 gives 28/52.2 = 53.6%
With 22, 44.3% with 28/63.2


So....rounding errors? Map errors?
Remember, some maps give a flat bonus to heat cap (cold ones) or negative (hot ones)
Forest is neutral? Canyon?

Tested in Forest Colony, so heat is neutral.

[justcallme A S H]

Livaria, on 20 August 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

I was doing some research on the heat mechanics and I've made a discovery. Players say that laser vomit is powerful. Yet, the weakness of lasers is supposed to include high heat. So how is it that players are apparently able to manage heat so well? Is it heatsinks, the maps, or mech quirks?

While all of those factors are valid; what could be less discussed; is the powerful bonuses that players can get from the elite tier of the mech skill tree. Players are getting 20% more heat capacity and 15% more heat dissipation.

For those that do not know much about heat capacity or dissipation...*That* is no small bonus. Simply put; the current skill tree is influential enough to set the games balance off-course with big numbers like 20% and 15%. Allow me to put this into perspective.

For heat capacity:

- A mech with 10 SHS gets 42 heat capacity. With the skill tree it gets 50.4

- An IS mech with 10 DHS gets 45 Heat capacity. With the skill tree it gets 54

- An IS mech with 20 DHS gets 60 Heat capacity. With the skill tree it gets 72

For heat dissipation:

- A mech with 10 SHS gets 1.1 Heat dissipation. With the skill tree it gets 1.27

- An IS mech with 10 DHS gets 2 Heat dissipation. With the skill tree it gets 2.3

- An IS mech with 20 DHS gets 3.4 Heat Dissipation.With the skill tree it gets 3.9

If players believe that mechs have too much of a generous heat threshold, the skill tree could be why. And now I will now ask the question again. Is the skill tree good for gameplay?

It allows players to technically have an advantage over other players that have not yet invested enough experience into a 'mech. It may also interfere with some of the intentional weaknesses of a 'mech or weapon system.

You really need to read this and understand how it truly works

https://steamcommuni...s/?id=686548357


Before going any further.

[XtremWarrior]

El Bandito, on 20 August 2016 - 07:10 PM, said:

Really? Cause I remember reading an article about it, where it said that heat containment and cool run do not affect additional heatsinks. Once I get back from work I can test it out.

R31Nismoid, on 21 August 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

You really need to read this and understand how it truly works

https://steamcommuni...s/?id=686548357


Before going any further.

This is the article.


To OP: no, even the current version of Skill Trees (with half values of old Speed Tweak and Fast Firing) is bad. Every Mechs are the same, game struggle with high Heat management and yet there are 2 (minor) buffs to that stat, "Weapon Convergence" is a place holder since i started the game in late 2012...

They're finally remaking it, though. 4 years later...

Maybe they'll address the DHS and Endo Tax one day in the next 4 years...

Edited by XtremWarrior, 22 August 2016 - 12:18 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

"Skills", "modules", "consumables" are all garbage grind-mechanics gimping any mech that hasn't been grinded out yet.

Adds nothing valuable to the game.

[PhoenixFire55]

Skill tree is same for everyone. It is irrelevant for gameplay.
Do we really need it tho? ... Nope.

[justcallme A S H]

It at least gives people - something - to work towards.

So yes, it's needed. It's basically the only point to the game. Remove that, there is nothing.

[kesmai]

Like the.modules the skilltree is utter crap and has nothing to do with battletech.
A proper tree would be bound to the player and not to the mechs he is piloting.
What we have now is uninspired, lazy and boring. Even given that, pgi isn't able to fix their own mediocre creation for more than 3 years.
If don't stop now I go into full salt/rant mode, so I better quit here.

[RedDragon]

They at least should have done it like WT: Until your mech/pilot is not maxed out, it runs below optimal efficiency. So only when a mech is skilled, it get's its "normal" values. That way there would still be a grind but no power creep because mechs all around the board would be less efficient than they are now, providing a longer TTK.

But well, it's PGI, so in hindsight it isn't surprising they didn't put any thought in it from the start.