37 replies to this topic

[627]

RedDragon, on 22 August 2016 - 02:00 AM, said:

They at least should have done it like WT: Until your mech/pilot is not maxed out, it runs below optimal efficiency. So only when a mech is skilled, it get's its "normal" values. That way there would still be a grind but no power creep because mechs all around the board would be less efficient than they are now, providing a longer TTK.

But well, it's PGI, so in hindsight it isn't surprising they didn't put any thought in it from the start.

But that's no skill tree either. It is a grind mechanic which punishes players who don't finish a mech.

What I would like is a skill tree that gives you decisions what to take and where the skills lead into specialization for a certain role. And that you can't max the whole tree out.

And this can be rather simple if you look at the xcom skill trees, only 2 options per tier but still both options offer different play styles.

[LordNothing]

the only problem with the skill tree is that pinpoint skill that does nothing. it should be removed or replaced. i for one will be very angry if my mastered inventory suddenly needs re-mastering. it might even make me abandon ship on this game if many many hundreds of man hours were lost.

[Juodas Varnas]

R31Nismoid, on 22 August 2016 - 01:39 AM, said:

It at least gives people - something - to work towards.

So yes, it's needed. It's basically the only point to the game. Remove that, there is nothing.

That may be the case for SOME people, but for others like ME, these grindfests, progression systems is actually what's STOPPING ME from buying new mechs, because i do not want to go GRIND THEM (I do have fucktons of general XP, but that's besides the point).

Ugh... i hate progression systems so much... it's like... a god damn carrot dangling in front of the player "keep playing and you'll get rewards", I DON'T WANT THE GOD DAMN CARROT!
The gameplay should be it's own reward, not some +10% speed boosts or whatnot

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 22 August 2016 - 02:18 AM.

[627]

LordNothing, on 22 August 2016 - 02:12 AM, said:

the only problem with the skill tree is that pinpoint skill that does nothing. it should be removed or replaced. i for one will be very angry if my mastered inventory suddenly needs re-mastering. it might even make me abandon ship on this game if many many hundreds of man hours were lost.

Doubt you'll lose the XP. Normally you should get those 50k-ish XP back and can redistribute them on the "new and improved" skill tree. Might not be enough for max then, though but whoever knows what we will get.

[Stone Wall]

It's wrong to grind/level up a Mech to add magical enchantments. The game is supposed to boil down online to you vs a pilot. That's why you see alot of interest in a Stock League.

[RedDragon]

627, on 22 August 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

But that's no skill tree either. It is a grind mechanic which punishes players who don't finish a mech.

What I would like is a skill tree that gives you decisions what to take and where the skills lead into specialization for a certain role. And that you can't max the whole tree out.

And this can be rather simple if you look at the xcom skill trees, only 2 options per tier but still both options offer different play styles.

Yes, this is indisputable - and it is what they sold us with one of the pillars in the founder program. But they should have made the current system (still a placeholder) the way I described above to prevent power creep.

[XtremWarrior]

Juodas Varnas, on 22 August 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

That may be the case for SOME people, but for others like ME, these grindfests, progression systems is actually what's STOPPING ME from buying new mechs, because i do not want to go GRIND THEM (I do have fucktons of general XP, but that's besides the point).

Ugh... i hate progression systems so much... it's like... a god damn carrot dangling in front of the player "keep playing and you'll get rewards", I DON'T WANT THE GOD DAMN CARROT!
The gameplay should be it's own reward, not some +10% speed boosts or whatnot

It's modern way of gaming you know. Almost every games have some sort of progression. This is not a story driven game, you need to have something that lets you know you have invested time in the game. Also MWO is f2p, which means it needs to have some sort of grind that you can ease up with money.

I get your gripe against that system (pretty much as i complain about AAA games with a zillion bugs upon release and day-1 DLC) but nowadays, it's just gonna keep you from playing a lot of good games .

Stone Wall, on 22 August 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

It's wrong to grind/level up a Mech to add magical enchantments. The game is supposed to boil down online to you vs a pilot.

Like every PvP games. Do you know many without some sort of unlocks or skills you obtain as you gain ranks/level while playing?

MWO offers almost full content upon downloading it (without money). XP related skills and modules are the only things you can not access with money only. Even if it's low right now, that's the only kind of "end-game content" in MWO, and there's got to be some.

Also, if you think about it, those kind of progression are rather Lore-wise:
In lore, mechwarriors get better as they fight, because piloting a Mech is hard. It's not only about throttle and triggers, it's about coordination and balance via the Neuro-helmet. So the longer they use a Mech, the easier it become to do impressive feats not doable for a novice (like some guy bowing with his Mech to salute an opponent - in one of the "Warrior" books).
Nothing can replicate this attunement, except in-game boost toward certain abilities: MWO's Skills.

Edited by XtremWarrior, 22 August 2016 - 05:31 AM.

[Stone Wall]

XtremWarrior, on 22 August 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

Like every PvP games. Do you know many without some sort of unlocks or skills you obtain as you gain ranks/level while playing?

I agree PvP games have those, but that's for RPGs and Shooters. MechWarrior 3 and 4 didn't need that. MWO seems to be doing this to expand the audience, because of this popular free2play version of PC games.

Quote

Even if it's low right now, that's the only kind of "end-game content" in MWO, and there's got to be some.

End game content? That's something else you didn't see in past MechWarrior games. I've heard it said in popular users' videos and this might be evidence here that MWO is trying to be an entirely different game than MechWarrior.

Quote

Also, if you think about it, those kind of progression are rather Lore-wise:
In lore, mechwarriors get better as they fight, because piloting a Mech is hard. It's not only about throttle and triggers, it's about coordination and balance via the Neuro-helmet. So the longer they use a Mech, the easier it become to do impressive feats not doable for a novice (like some guy bowing with his Mech to salute an opponent - in one of the "Warrior" books).
Nothing can replicate this attunement, except in-game boost toward certain abilities: MWO's Skills.

Yes MechWarrior games, especially PvP, are hard. In the past MechWarrior games online we got better at piloting the Mechs, by piloting the Mechs. IMO these "Skills" just give people who have put time grinding MechWarrior(again something new to the MW online games) an advantage over new players. These aren't true "Skills" but advantages.

And can't you just exchange MC for C-Bills, skip the grind, and basically pay2advantage the Masteries? There's no real skill. That's nothing like using a neuro helmet or spending years playing the game. We might as well be able to "Skill" our Mechs into doing backflips. There's no skill in backflipping, but it's an advantage. And there's no skill in having a better Mech than someone who has a basic Mech.

Quirks and "Skills" are why people have been talking about a Stock league. There you can see real skill instead of seeing the result of someone whose Mech is just "Skilled" out.

[Johnny Z]

The skill tree is balanced really well at the moment. How to master mechs isn't very nice. I am guessing they will divide the current skill tree up somehow and maybe add new skills and with a lot better package. If anything the current skill tree could be turned down a touch.

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 August 2016 - 03:14 PM.

[badaa]

the only thing the skill tree is there for is to force u to buy 3 of the same chassis

[XtremWarrior]

Stone Wall, on 22 August 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

I agree PvP games have those, but that's for RPGs and Shooters. MechWarrior 3 and 4 didn't need that. MWO seems to be doing this to expand the audience, because of this popular free2play version of PC games.
End game content? That's something else you didn't see in past MechWarrior games. I've heard it said in popular users' videos and this might be evidence here that MWO is trying to be an entirely different game than MechWarrior.

Yes, and MWO is definitely not a Shooter.
And i see no trouble in MWO being different than previous MW titles. Especially since it already is: Online vs Solo games.

Stone Wall, on 22 August 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Yes MechWarrior games, especially PvP, are hard. In the past MechWarrior games online we got better at piloting the Mechs, by piloting the Mechs. IMO these "Skills" just give people who have put time grinding MechWarrior(again something new to the MW online games) an advantage over new players. These aren't true "Skills" but advantages.

That's what i'm talking about: advantages. As i said, per lore, mechwarriors get a lot better than just being accurate with their weapons, player skills will never reflect that.
But, more importantly, what's the point of matching long time players with novices? You already have better skills (aiming and piloting), but also maps knowledge, builds knowledge... Wanna counter that? How?
Veterans should be matched with vets, novices with novices. In that perspective, Mech-Skills reward vets who put some dedication ( =time) into a chassis, reflecting the attunement you should have with your Mech, which should give you an advantage vs an equally skilled player who hasn't spend as much time with their own chassis. Pretty fair by me.

Stone Wall, on 22 August 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

And can't you just exchange MC for C-Bills, skip the grind, and basically pay2advantage the Masteries? There's no real skill. That's nothing like using a neuro helmet or spending years playing the game. We might as well be able to "Skill" our Mechs into doing backflips. There's no skill in backflipping, but it's an advantage. And there's no skill in having a better Mech than someone who has a basic Mech.

Yes you can buy CBills for MCs. Skills are unlocked with XP though, which you cannot buy, only exchange.
Ok, you can earn XP with another Mech, then convert it to GXP with MCs. That still means you have played enough with one or several chassis to have that same level of knowledge/attunement/time. You just have the ability to pay to transfer those advantages upon another Mech.
You can see it as breaking the immersion, but as long as it require that you have played the game for just as long as someone who didn't use money, i'm fine with that.

Stone Wall, on 22 August 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Quirks and "Skills" are why people have been talking about a Stock league. There you can see real skill instead of seeing the result of someone whose Mech is just "Skilled" out.

Yes because Stock Mechs are so balanced... Like the Stormcrow Prime is totally not better than any Vindicator variants, right?

Edited by XtremWarrior, 23 August 2016 - 03:00 AM.

[Kmieciu]

As a Urbanmech pilot I thoroughly enjoy both Pinpoint and Twist X skills.

[Stone Wall]

The grind is new to MechWarrior online games. So I guess there's a larger discussion on that to be had.

MechWarrior 3's Stock Mechs weren't balanced, but we knew the Tiers of the Mechs. This lead to strategy and different styles of gameplay with who or what you were facing. There never was any talk of "eww you didn't max out your Mech? you must suck."

The only positive thing I see from Skills is people keep playing to max out the Mechs. Their reasons being: need the same advantages/I love to complete things.

I don't plan to max out my Mechs. It's not fun for me. I'd rather take satisfaction with beating someone with a near basic skilled Mech.

[XtremWarrior]

Stone Wall, on 23 August 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

The grind is new to MechWarrior online games. So I guess there's a larger discussion on that to be had.

MechWarrior 3's Stock Mechs weren't balanced, but we knew the Tiers of the Mechs. This lead to strategy and different styles of gameplay with who or what you were facing. There never was any talk of "eww you didn't max out your Mech? you must suck."

The only positive thing I see from Skills is people keep playing to max out the Mechs. Their reasons being: need the same advantages/I love to complete things.

I don't plan to max out my Mechs. It's not fun for me. I'd rather take satisfaction with beating someone with a near basic skilled Mech.

I never tried Stock Mode but i like the concept, as you see more variety in builds than regular QP and it's more like the original TT game.
That said, I don't think that's what most people want, and i wouldn't like being forced to Stock Mode only.

What I'd like is the Skill Tree to be a tree, with choices about which path to take: speed and agility OR more endurance OR better commanding option, etc (with only very small buffs, like +3% speed, 2 more structure points on some parts).

[Livaria]

R31Nismoid, on 21 August 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

You really need to read this and understand how it truly works

https://steamcommuni...s/?id=686548357


Before going any further.

I already knew just about everything except the bonus only affecting the base heat capacity of 30. That strikes me as a little strange though. My testing has yielded very close results to the bonuses I described. But perhaps I did something wrong.

I will remove the increased bonus values section of the post because it's debatable. The entire principle of the discussion however still stands. Thanks for being helpful anyways.

So what about my suggestions earlier that I posted? What do you guys think of it? It still encompasses some of the money spending elements. While not being exclusive to other players.

Edited by Livaria, 23 August 2016 - 12:06 PM.

[Stone Wall]

XtremWarrior, on 23 August 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

I never tried Stock Mode but i like the concept, as you see more variety in builds than regular QP and it's more like the original TT game.
That said, I don't think that's what most people want, and i wouldn't like being forced to Stock Mode only.

What I'd like is the Skill Tree to be a tree, with choices about which path to take: speed and agility OR more endurance OR better commanding option, etc (with only very small buffs, like +3% speed, 2 more structure points on some parts).

Stock Mode was great in MechWarrior 3. I can see it working as a League here.

I agree on the tree. Needs to be focus oriented instead of "I need to max out to compete."

[nitra]

(did not get this posted before server went down .)

What i personally want to see happen to the skill tree is to migrate into mech pilots.

i even began a design doc on it . but it needs heavy editing .

but the gist is akin to harebrained has done with their battle tech game .

here in mwo you woul have a rookie list of pilots to choose from all with base stats at piloting mechs. yada yada.

as they battle they lvl up the stats . yada yada.

heres the mechanic that makes things intresting .

your pilots can and will die get injured based on how you pilot the mech.

over heat the that 6 ppc stalker one to many times and your pilot becomes a crispy critter . shortening his longevity on the battlefield.

are you a careless rush to front and get blasted player like me ?? well then dont expect your pilots to be able keep up with the punishment, as concussions and other injuries will stick em in the infirmary for a bit. do this to much and you wil find your self back in the rookie bin looking for new pilots.

now for those who can care for the pilots and mechs they will be rewarded with veteran pilots that can pilot the mech they paired with quite efficiently giving them an edge on the field against rookies and other veteran pilots.

but alas those pilots are still meat and will eventually have to retire . but fear not as they can become teachers and help level up your rookies quicker . and when they die, a school can be created in their honor that helps keep the training of that mech warrior alive for future rookies.

and last but not least for those in dire needs of cbills can contract out their veteran warriors for cbills creating a market place for those who need veteran warriors now .

i feel this would be big change to how mwo plays out and would give some much needed depth the game . maybe ill get the design doc edited out and completed ..

but i would love to see something like this in game.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

A skill tree can help give long term goals for players, currently the skill tree is... very shallow to be frank. The current skill tree is get mech, play mech, get XP, use XP to basic mech. Then you buy another variant of the chassis and do the same thing, then another variant and basic that, then elite, then master. Then we have 'pilot skills' which some are weapon modules, some are consumable upgrades, and some are mech modules. There are a lot of options in the 'pilot skills' section which is good, but, it has no structure to it, no spend 10k gxp to unlock a module to push sensor range out further. If it was spend 10k GXP on a mastered mech to unlock better sensors that would be pretty cool, and not then have to spend a chunk of cbills on a module. Like, make it so once mastered you get to put in specific tweaks up to a certain capacity due to some mech modules are better than others, maybe make it so if you have piloted a mech for a very long time you can dump that 100k xp you have on a mastered mech to unlock all the different tweaks and capacity upgrades.

Basically, the pilot skill tree is really only for consumable upgrades. Make the mech module upgrades be unlocked via mastering a mech, and increasing the capacity of mech modules you can take and the degree to which these upgrades work. Giving us a sink for xp that lasts beyond mastering a mech would help with long term goals which currently don't exist in the game. Give us a deeper pilot skill tree that has two parts, better consumables and better mech attributes. The better mech attributes is tied to mastering the mech, like tuning the sensors to go further out, gather data faster, while radar derp is still a piece of equipment that shouldn't cost gxp to buy. Hill climb? That should be a pilot skill after mastering a mech, you are so good with this mech you better know how to maneuver it over bad terrain. So on and so forth.