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I Prefer The Old Mech Combat Vs Mwo


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#121 meteorol

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:51 PM

View PostCMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 11 October 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:


PGI has totally failed in making an appealing game to both hardcore fans, and casual fans... in trying to please both, they have really pleased neither.


Well, they managed to please someone enough that the game is still here, after 4 years. Even after the playerbase bled out, it is still countless times bigger than MW: Stillborn Legends ever was, even during its most populated days.

#122 Void Angel

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:51 PM

PS: maybe I'm weird, but I both liked MechCommander and wished for more customization - is that allowed?

#123 RestosIII

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 11:03 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 11 October 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

PS: maybe I'm weird, but I both liked MechCommander and wished for more customization - is that allowed?


How to play MechCommander: Hollander for spotting and sniping, plus 2 LRM/Gauss Highlanders and a normal Atlas. Boom, wall of death.

#124 FalconerGray

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 11:49 PM

View PostWil McCullough, on 11 October 2016 - 10:40 PM, said:


i played mw2, mw2 mercs, mw3 and was around when MC (both 1 and 2) released.

if you remember, there was no lrm 5/10/15/20 etc. it was just lrms and srms. there was no armor tweaking. no armor types even. no heatsinks. no engine swapping. no increasing or decreasing ammo.

it was the ultimate dumbed down mech experience and MW fans were LIVID.

then MA came out and suddenly MC belonged to the better half of the franchise and something to be celebrated.

we old vets are a fickle bunch with rose tinted glasses to be perfectly honest.


Yeah, I remember, I was there at the time. I remember people being disappointed in the simplified loadouts and weapons, but even then, I wasn't bothered by it because it was a well executed example of a completely different element of the BT world. It wasn't there to replace MW, it ran alongside it and complimented the series beautifully IMO.

#125 Stone Wall

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 03:18 AM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 11 October 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:


If only it was that easy :/. Out of all the old titles, MW3 is probably the least friendly to get working on newer computers. It's a stability nightmare. Just watch poor Shivaxi on Youtube try to get through a mission without the game crashing several times.


It was a pain in the past, but we have found a few tips that can get it working.

1) Limit frames to 30
2) Enable Vsync through dgVoodoo2
3) Never use Compatibility Mode

I'm even playing the game in HD. It took me over 3 years of searching to find how to fix the game for me on Windows 7, but I did it. But you can always buy a junk computer from 2005 and run the game.

View PostGas Guzzler, on 11 October 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:


Oh okay. So instead we should talk about how PGI should make this game more like MW3 because that's in the interest of the entire community?


Might as well because you guys are oh so positive about MWO.

#126 Stone Wall

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 03:21 AM

View PostUltimax, on 11 October 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:



That looks awful.

Flat, featureless landscape.

Slow, clumsy game-play.



This does seem to be the desired play style for everyone who struggles to do well here.


We were playing on the flattest map in the map. It's called Spaceport, because people like to land there. My guess it you need flat land for that. I know you are used to small maps in MWO, but most of MechWarrior 3's maps are way larger.

And we were using Heavies and Assaults, Stock Mechs too btw. Both Mechs were running faster as Stock Mechs than modded out Mechs of the same size in MWO.

You can check out my videos to see non flat maps, faster Mechs, smaller maps like MWO.

Edited by Stone Wall, 12 October 2016 - 03:21 AM.


#127 Stone Wall

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 03:30 AM

View PostVoid Angel, on 11 October 2016 - 10:49 PM, said:

You lost your credibility with "wallet warrior online."


I don't think so. There is no need to hold back content/Mechs. And there is really no need to have Hero Mechs that are behind a pay wall. Makes little sense. The only way it makes sense is if PGI feared they would be bad at a MW title and needed a way to make money.

Take for example Path of Exile. That is a F2P game. You don't have to pay a dime. The creators are completely against pay2win options or paywall options. They made a ton of money off microtransactions because they put out a superior title. And they put out new content, expansions all the time. You would think with PGI raking in all these "whales," as you guys call them, there would be SO much added to the game. Instead we have the new features of, as you guys call it, "want to buy a Mech pack" of the month. This is a shame when people at Mektek did wonders with MechWarrior 4 for free. The same can be said about what those other guys did with MechWarrior Living Legends. IMO, the creators are spending too much time spending the money and not enough time creating.

If they made a great MW title, they could live off selling cosmetic effects and other items.

Edited by Stone Wall, 12 October 2016 - 03:38 AM.


#128 Davers

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 05:48 AM

View PostRestosIII, on 11 October 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:


How to play MechCommander: Hollander for spotting and sniping, plus 2 LRM/Gauss Highlanders and a normal Atlas. Boom, wall of death.

No way! Atlas was sooo slooow! I'm still waiting for a legged Atlas to get to the drop ship pick up from '98.

#129 Almond Brown

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 08:52 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 October 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

Funny, best friend of mine who is also a Mechwarrior fan had tried out MWO and didn't like it because it wasn't like previous Mechwarrior games. A shame, really.

I guess something really important about Mechwarrior franchise has been lost in the transition.


Yup. We used to call it "Single Player Mode". With SP mode, you could fight the pathetic AI and Win every time. With MWO being only Online, it forces players to actually learn how to play the game. Some just can't handle that reality. ;)

#130 Ultimax

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 11:38 AM

View PostStone Wall, on 12 October 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:


We were playing on the flattest map in the map. It's called Spaceport, because people like to land there. My guess it you need flat land for that. I know you are used to small maps in MWO, but most of MechWarrior 3's maps are way larger.

And we were using Heavies and Assaults, Stock Mechs too btw. Both Mechs were running faster as Stock Mechs than modded out Mechs of the same size in MWO.

You can check out my videos to see non flat maps, faster Mechs, smaller maps like MWO.


None of that refutes the fact that gameplay looked less dynamic, and less interesting than what we have in MWO.

What you call "hiding behind rocks" is actually "using cover" - and it is a basic tactic used in both real and fantasy situations of combat.

In fact, the reason some maps have so much cover (like the revised River City, Forest Colony and new maps like Mining Colony) - is expressly because it was requested heavily by the playerbase.


I can see why this gameplay would be appealing to some.

It's slower, it's easier. It looks more forgiving.

That's not the game I want to play.

I want the game to be dangerous, and punishing - and quite frankly when I see players pining for "circle strafing" or "Dance of death" - I think they are pining for a very low skill level of gameplay.


So while that might be appealing to you. Understand that it is YOU, and most certainly not everyone.


I don't want a low skill entry/low skill ceiling game where you just circle each other shooting nerf guns.

I think that's lame, boring and weak.

Edited by Ultimax, 12 October 2016 - 11:39 AM.


#131 Void Angel

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 11:55 AM

View PostStone Wall, on 12 October 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:


I don't think so. There is no need to hold back content/Mechs. And there is really no need to have Hero Mechs that are behind a pay wall. Makes little sense. The only way it makes sense is if PGI feared they would be bad at a MW title and needed a way to make money.

Take for example Path of Exile. That is a F2P game. You don't have to pay a dime. The creators are completely against pay2win options or paywall options. They made a ton of money off microtransactions because they put out a superior title. And they put out new content, expansions all the time. You would think with PGI raking in all these "whales," as you guys call them, there would be SO much added to the game. Instead we have the new features of, as you guys call it, "want to buy a Mech pack" of the month. This is a shame when people at Mektek did wonders with MechWarrior 4 for free. The same can be said about what those other guys did with MechWarrior Living Legends. IMO, the creators are spending too much time spending the money and not enough time creating.

If they made a great MW title, they could live off selling cosmetic effects and other items.

"Whales?" "You guys?" I think you're confusing me with the conspiracy theory I was criticizing.

MWO's microtransaction scheme works perfectly well, without any pay to win elements. The Heroes cost money because they're meant to feel unique, and because they have a significant boost to c-bill earnings. Allowing players to pre-purchase a 'mech chassis without seeing it in the field in exchange for early access to that 'mech is also a valid choice - these 'mechs are not designed to be overpowered, though they are untested. So both forms of 'mech sale are honest, above-the-board transactions that yield value to the player without giving them an advantage, and help pay for the game - which is what microtransactions are for.

Without knowing PGI's gross revenues from microtransactions, outlays for development, and fixed costs, you can't say anything meaningful about how much content ('mechs are content, by the way) we should be getting - speculating as a means of supporting your argument is not ok. It invalidates your argument, and you should not do it. PGI has told us multiple times that there are different programming specialties and resources going into the different areas of game design; specifically, they've pointed out several times that the resources they use to make 'mechs are not fungible with those used to make maps, or design, construct, and test new Faction Play content. So the tacit assumption that PGI is skimping on other aspects of game development in order to produce 'Mech packs doesn't hold up under the light of day - it's totally impractical to re-hire the programmers every time you want new 'mechs, which makes their salaries effectively a fixed cost. Do you want that fixed cost to do nothing, or should PGI be getting something for that expenditure?

And let's talk about Path of Exile, and Mektek. There is a huge difference between reskinning an old game and updating its multiplayer protocols - or making a Diablo II clone - on the one hand, and manufacturing an entire game yourself (including rewriting and fixing significant portions of the game code.) Now, I'm glad you had fun with the re-release of Mercenaries, but while this is certainly a well-produced walk down memory lane...https://youtu.be/dILTf7oBuQ8?t=1612I wouldn't quite describe it in a tone of breathless wonder. The technical requirements are far different from MWO, and while MekTek's current project, Heavy Gear Assault, looks promising, it's still in early alpha - and it's not free to play. Similarly, while Path of Exile's interface is basically Diablo II's, expanded with more buttons and a chained-women motif:Posted Image


... it's obviously not as technically challenging to produce new content for - there's just not as much going on in the game's engine when you're using an isometric format. Beautiful game, mind you - but it's also a fundamentally different kind of game.

Now, I'm not completely happy with PGI's development recently. The Long Tom was a fiasco, and Faction Play continues to be slow and problematic, in my opinion. Yet in the end, the whys and wherefores are simply a way of making sense of the world - our opinions should be based on facts, but in the end what matters is practicality. If I don't find MWO to be fun enough to keep playing, I'll gradually stop playing it and go do something else - PGI's motivations will not and should not factor into that decision. People's arguments about whether PGI is greedy/stupid/diabolical/satan/the lost royal family of Atlantis aren't really about the facts - they're about people feeling right, or justified, clever, or angry.

They can argue for those things, I don't care - I'll agree or disagree as I see it. Just do it with the facts.

#132 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 11:58 AM

View PostVoid Angel, on 12 October 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

So both forms of 'mech sale are honest, above-the-board transactions that yield value to the player without giving them an advantage

Actually, this isn't quite true. The Oxide being one of the top IS lights (back before the rescale) actually is paying for an advantage if FW actually mattered. Same with pre-ordering a mech that took 4-6 months before it was available for c-bills like say the Kodiak, both are harmful to the population even if eventually that advantage disappears later.

When you have power creep like the Clans have been since day one, and have this pre-order scheme, it ends up to be a toxic sort of scheme.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 October 2016 - 12:02 PM.


#133 IraqiWalker

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 12:02 PM

View PostSopistan, on 10 October 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

I don´t know how much some people played the multiplayer from mw3/4/mercs, but as far as i remember, those games where a insta-kill PPc/gauss party, with mechs running in circles in the open ......

MechWarrior 4 Multiplayer was literally condensed to 4-5 builds, and they all carried clan weapons.

#134 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 12:03 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 12 October 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

MechWarrior 4 Multiplayer was literally condensed to 4-5 builds, and they all carried clan weapons.

Pure tech consisted of more and wasn't as badly balanced as some might think (but Clans did have an advantage still iirc). At least for MW4 Mercs that is, Veng and BK were less balanced than their successor.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 October 2016 - 12:04 PM.


#135 Void Angel

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 12:45 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Actually, this isn't quite true. The Oxide being one of the top IS lights (back before the rescale) actually is paying for an advantage if FW actually mattered. Same with pre-ordering a mech that took 4-6 months before it was available for c-bills like say the Kodiak, both are harmful to the population even if eventually that advantage disappears later.

When you have power creep like the Clans have been since day one, and have this pre-order scheme, it ends up to be a toxic sort of scheme.

That's... not true. The Clans have been consistently nerfed from their original values. For every Kodiak or Oxide - which is a balance (and bug) issue, not a free-to-play issue - you have an UrbanMech. Or Archer. How about all those Vipers dominating the battlefield? La Malinche? 'Mechs, particularly unreleased 'mechs, are a mixed bag, and balance is a constant process that's heavily affected by player responses to a change.

There are problems with the game, but the only thing toxic about MWO's microtransaction system is the beer goggles and tinfoil hats people use to review their criticisms of it.

PS: Clans have a huge advantage any time you use their canon weapon stats, because supertechnology is, by design, super.

#136 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 01:01 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 12 October 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

That's... not true. The Clans have been consistently nerfed from their original values

Just because they are nerfed from their original values doesn't mean they are automatically equal to the IS, because they still aren't without quirks (and quirks didn't hit until after wave 1 had been out for at least a month).

View PostVoid Angel, on 12 October 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

For every Kodiak or Oxide - which is a balance (and bug) issue, not a free-to-play issue - you have an UrbanMech.
Or Archer. How about all those Vipers dominating the battlefield? La Malinche?

Doesn't matter, the fact the Kodiak and Oxide existed in an Overpowered state while paywalled is a problem, whether they are the only ones or not is irrelevant (which they aren't, Ember and Dragonslayer are the more classic examples, and then you have the first hero which was controversial because they removed content to help sell it).

View PostVoid Angel, on 12 October 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Mechs, particularly unreleased 'mechs, are a mixed bag, and balance is a constant process that's heavily affected by player responses to a change.

Which is why pre-orders are stupid in a F2P game and only asking for trouble. TF2 doesn't seem to have issues selling content the day they are released (I'm including weapons here) despite being freely available, simply because they don't want to spend time to grind for them and later I think they made them different quality which to collectors matter.

View PostVoid Angel, on 12 October 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

There are problems with the game, but the only thing toxic about MWO's microtransaction system is the beer goggles and tinfoil hats people use to review their criticisms of it.

Nope, if that were the case they wouldn't be pushing pre-orders to help drive revenue or try and create some new pay scheme that does not in any way match their in-game scheme with MC (Pixie heroes cost as much as the Spirit Bear in the packs, but not in game with MC or c-bills, that doesn't make sense). Not to mention they are pushing out mechs that may or may not be relevant and have no concern for how they would or should fit into the game or the meta which shows lack of forethought. Why haven't they tried to put more effort in selling us custom geometry or even better camo schemes (or even a better way to create camos)? Where are different pilot models that would potentially sell, bitchin betty voice packs, com rose voice packs, etc, etc?

View PostVoid Angel, on 12 October 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

PS: Clans have a huge advantage any time you use their canon weapon stats, because supertechnology is, by design, super.

PS: Clans still have an advantage especially when you take quirks out of the equation, three of the top meta mechs are quirkless (well the KDK-3 isn't, but it would be even without them).

#137 Void Angel

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 03:59 PM

All of your handwaving doesn't change the fact that you are cherry-picking temporary imbalances, exeptions that prove the rule, etc, and postulating a system that does not exist. The Oxide being good doesn't make the system "toxic;" heck, you yourself said it's "one of" the best Inner Sphere 'mechs. Both the Ember and the Dragonslayer had close substitutes available - so close, in fact, that other variants were argued to be superior in the meta.

"Well, they're not selling these other things, some of which are totally unproven, so they MUST be taking advantage of the credulous" is a classic false cause fallacy and magical thinking all rolled into one! Is it more likely that PGI has found that the custom geometry they've offered hasn't been popular enough to be cost-effective (especially if they're only interested in selling us things so they don't have to do real work) - or that they're embarking on some incomprehensibly diabolical plan to be mean to people? Is the lack of a unified pricing scheme the result of limited resources in a small studio not being prioritized, or some kind of scheme to be "toxic" to players? Why would they do that

I've played games (briefly) that were set up according to the "whale" system of microtransactions - misrepresenting history and stretching the truth still don't even come close to making MWO look like one of them. None of your arguments are likely; every single thing you say is more reasonably explained by some reasonable explanation - but being reasonable doesn't make one feel righteous. The only way your viewpoint makes sense is if I take accept anything pejorative to PGI as a baseline, then think that other people have to prove I'm wrong. That way, my assertions are evidence, and just having an alternate explanation makes me right! That's not how that works... that's not how any of that works.

Beer goggles; tinfoil hats.

#138 FalconerGray

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:00 PM

View PostUltimax, on 12 October 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:


None of that refutes the fact that gameplay looked less dynamic, and less interesting than what we have in MWO.

What you call "hiding behind rocks" is actually "using cover" - and it is a basic tactic used in both real and fantasy situations of combat.

In fact, the reason some maps have so much cover (like the revised River City, Forest Colony and new maps like Mining Colony) - is expressly because it was requested heavily by the playerbase.


I can see why this gameplay would be appealing to some.

It's slower, it's easier. It looks more forgiving.

That's not the game I want to play.

I want the game to be dangerous, and punishing - and quite frankly when I see players pining for "circle strafing" or "Dance of death" - I think they are pining for a very low skill level of gameplay.


So while that might be appealing to you. Understand that it is YOU, and most certainly not everyone.


I don't want a low skill entry/low skill ceiling game where you just circle each other shooting nerf guns.

I think that's lame, boring and weak.


I think you've picked out the differences between old and new that were certain to change over time and missed a hell a lot of the others that for some reason were left buried and forgotten.

Because the game that 'we' want is actually a game with a much high skill ceiling than what we have now, just in different areas.

#139 Stone Wall

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:22 PM

View PostUltimax, on 12 October 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:


None of that refutes the fact that gameplay looked less dynamic, and less interesting than what we have in MWO.

What you call "hiding behind rocks" is actually "using cover" - and it is a basic tactic used in both real and fantasy situations of combat.

In fact, the reason some maps have so much cover (like the revised River City, Forest Colony and new maps like Mining Colony) - is expressly because it was requested heavily by the playerbase.


Hiding behind rocks to stay alive with your one life before being 3 shot to death isn't interesting or dynamic. And people wanted cover in the game because of the LRM fest in early release. You would think the incoming missles warning would be enough help.



Quote

I can see why this gameplay would be appealing to some.

It's slower, it's easier. It looks more forgiving.


MechWarrior 3 has overall faster Mechs with more firepower, but the Mechs take longer to kill. It's easier to kill a Mech in MWO. Everyone complains about this.

Quote

I want the game to be dangerous, and punishing - and quite frankly when I see players pining for "circle strafing" or "Dance of death" - I think they are pining for a very low skill level of gameplay.


So while that might be appealing to you. Understand that it is YOU, and most certainly not everyone.


I don't want a low skill entry/low skill ceiling game where you just circle each other shooting nerf guns.

I think that's lame, boring and weak.


I can tell you never played much of MechWarrior 3, especially in high level league play. Hitting at max range, closing in, dancing, aiming all played into success. If you took a misstep in any of those areas in a 1 on 1, you lost in attrition. It was very unforgiving.

But if only having to land 3 shots at 1000km is your cup of tea, I can get that. It's not a true MechWarrior battle. MWO has truely lost the brawling part of MechWarrior. It's sad to see.

Edited by Stone Wall, 12 October 2016 - 04:24 PM.


#140 El Bandito

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:53 PM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 12 October 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

Yup. We used to call it "Single Player Mode". With SP mode, you could fight the pathetic AI and Win every time. With MWO being only Online, it forces players to actually learn how to play the game. Some just can't handle that reality. Posted Image


Or maybe MWO's repetitive deathmatches are just not as entertaining as previous MW games.





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