155 replies to this topic

[Omigir]

Alaric, while I agree that TRO mechs were not all that well done.. i think you really need to figure out what you mean by 'mecha' Some of the most iconic mechs in Mechwarrior were devised from 'mecha' at the same time not all 'mecha' are made the same. not all Japanese animation mechanicals, or mechs, are like you are describing them. It sounds more like you hate the idea of what you think they are, which is fine, but at least try and look into what they actualy are before you say you hate them. So please, look into what you are talking about, or expand to encompass what you are specifically talking about like 'I hate so and so mechs and mechs like them' rather then Mecha.. at that point you may as well say you hate the Warhammer, and the Longbow and the Marauder too. I bet you 10 to 1 that you think the Warhammer does not look mecha. Just look at the 2009 traler and tell me that a Warhammer is anything like what you think a Japense 'mecha' is. Becuase that is more Japanese then armored core ever was or will be. Warhammer and the other unseen are straight from japan.

[Chuckie]

Omigir, on 27 January 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Just look at the 2009 traler and tell me that a Warhammer is anything like what you think a Japense 'mecha' is. Becuase that is more Japanese then armored core ever was or will be. Warhammer and the other unseen are straight from japan.

As I mentioned.. I think the debate isnt Japanese/Mecha/Anime vs whatever.. as most started from that genere.

To me Anime isn't just Japanese or Korean.. its also drawn by American artists.. Anime to me is a style of cartoon.

I think the more accurate debate is:

Military/War Machine style

"Realistic" Sci-Fi you can see being actually created in the future. So while you have to detach from reality a bit you don't have to detach from complete reality. For example the Hunchback cockpit has pedals, joystick, etc.. to go with the neurohelmet and looks like the inside of a tank.




VS

Cartoon/Anime

Where the Mechs look to thin, and are drawn completely with form over function as the primary driver. So you would have to live in a cartoon universe for any of them to even think of being able to work as drawn.



Thats I think the true debate. Because even in the example above is an "Unseen" style of Mech.. but its too smooth and the exception to the other mecha shown.

Considering they are giving us this:



I personally think the guys at PGI are leaning towards the more "War Machine" style..

[Omigir]

Chuckie, I think you are right. I was not trying to make it Anime, but trying to get people to realize they dont know what they are thinking that they are debating. Which you are illustrating very well what they see in their minds vice what they are saying with their words.

[RedBeaveR]

1. forget the centurion. im more interested in the Titan lurking behind him in the picture. (jk, ill ride 1 for memory sake)
2. madcat should have a big cockpit. its not the most brilliant (nor secure) design, i know. but thats what made madcat a.... MadCat. It's.... a MadCat, bro.
please, dev. stick to the old design. dont redesign my fav battlemech EVER too much.

thanks!

[Tsen Shang]

Once again, the main point has been glossed over in favor of nitpicking.

First, a quick response to the anime topic: The unseen are largely based on the destroids from Macross, which required a crew to operate and were very slow. They were essentially walking turrets. These are the mechs that Battletech is based off of. Yes, there are Veritechs and Battlepods in game as well, but the reason the Warhammer and now the Hammerhands grace the cover is because they convey the feel and the style of gameplay; walking tanks shooting at each other is the theme. No, they don't qualify as anime. Google mecha and then look at the unseen. The resemblance is remote, if it's even there at all. Example A:





Now what should be the main discussion. This mech thingy in the picture that has been labeled 'Centurion' is not a Centurion. Why? Because it doesn't feel like one. I know, that's a non answer and a lot of people have a lot of feelings about a lot of things, but bear with me.

Look at the anime picture above. The mech is projecting emotion. It is standoffish, haughty, and proud. The way it's standing, the angle it's been drawn at, and the way it's been drawn all give the mech emotions. That's the anime style. This is Battletech. Our mechs have no emotions because they're better than that. Look at the Atlas. The Atlas doesn't project emotion, it causes YOU to feel emotion. It emanates menace which instills fear, dread, even terror. It is death incarnate, and scary as hell.

The second reason and the main reason why I am absolutely disappointed with that thing on the front page is that it doesn't look like a Centurion. The only things that are even remotely similar are the tiny fin on its head and the weapon placement. What's with the big fin on the shoulder? That takes away the fin silhouette from the side, which is it's defining feature! What's with the chunky arm shield? What's with the claw hand? What's with claw feet? It feels like a cross between a bird and a ripped, hunchbacked person, and that's not what it's supposed to be. It should've been designed to look more like a real centurion and then taken to awesomeness from there, not birdified; there are plenty of bird mechs in Battletech. Someone mentioned mustangs, and how mustangs change over the years. The difference is that mustangs have (in general) retained their looks. Every iteration of the mustang has a heavy front, a tiny back, a set back 'cockpit' if you will. They all convey power. I beseech you again, go back and compare old mech versions to these new ones. They all maintain the feel, the rough lines, the layout. This one doesn't. This one looks nothing like it.

Oh, and if any of you guys try to use the "but it's more realistic" argument...listen to yourself. You're arguing realistic for a 31st century robot blam blam game.

[Kyone Akashi]

Chuckie, on 27 January 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

I think the more accurate debate is:
Military/War Machine style VS Cartoon/Anime

I see what you're getting at, but that's still wrong and loaded with bias. As shown on the pictures posted earlier, there is a lot of "cartoon/anime" that clearly uses the very same "military/war machine style" you are presenting as an incompatible opposite.

Cartoons and anime do not just use one clearly identifiable drawing style all the time, and I think you are making the same mistake as those people who think anime always has to look like Sailor Moon or Dragonball or the other stuff that, for some reason, has become so popular that it draws public attention away from more "serious" productions. Obviously, such people have never seen things like Jin-Roh.
Tl;dr: statements that all cartoons/anime are the same are like saying all life-action series and movies are the same. It's not a genre, it's merely a method of presenting the media and can encompass a multitude of styles, both in the narrative as well as the visuals.

Another fun fact: Battletech had a cartoon once, too.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 27 January 2012 - 11:45 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

could not say it any better Tsen! If someone made a Tie fighter from star wars and their interpretion one couldn't really see the Tie Fighter in it, Star Wars fans would cry foul yes? what if someone tried to make a 'modern/military' tie fighter...then it wouldn't be a tie fighter

the point is, the tie fighter design is goofy? maybe, but thats what it is and so far Star Wars fans seem to have no huge problem with it. You can also tell that this Centurion take is not on track because the apparent and sudden out pouring of criticism, why? because I for one agreed with FD's other 5 drawings, they're in the right vein. this new centurion? naw man. It has the potential to look awesome but it needs work.

more examples:
40k space marine, eldar, ork, imperial gaurd vehicle designs haven't changed in 25 years since the game started. There have been new sculpts yes, but the overall layouts havent changed - yet no one is complaing their not 'military enough'

Warmachine mechs look like robot football players that would topple over, they have heads exposed yadda yadda yadda - yet no one is complaing their not 'military enough'

take your mil/Modern Warfare/BF3 fetish somewhere else!

this is my centurion, and I won't have it any other way

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 27 January 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[KingCobra]

This is classic(quote by RedBeaveR.A madcat should have a big cockpit. its not the most brilliant (nor secure) design, i know. but thats what made madcat a.... MadCat. It's.... a MadCat, bro. )



or this?


or this?


P.S we can only hope and pray And as much as i like the madcat i tell myself yes the madcat needs a remodel.

Edited by KingCobra, 27 January 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[Omigir]

Honestly, I think you all are just being picky. Its not what you wanted so now you are making a bizzar extrapolation that you yourself cant even define. I been reading through this whole thing and No one can give me a solid complaint other than "NO WANT HANDS" or "MECHA BAD" Are you kidding me? There are 3 threads that this debate is flaming up over just becuase they made the centurion no long have a neck. Only change to the centurion. that is it. Other then that, it got the same 'upgrades' in visuals the Hunchback did. So what, it has a 'claw' hand. Do you know how complicated the human hand is to emulate? We still cant do it with even today technology.

Suck it up and get over your self ritious 'anti anime' selves and realise that is not where MW:O is going.

[Gaizokubanou]

Tsen Shang, tons of original battle tech designs, including the centurion, completely missed the whole "walking tank" design philosophy. If anything, they were more of duck taped boxes with cylinders protruding.

Art evolve like any other aspect of culture. Sorry that you are disappointed where this game's art is heading, but original battle tech art was way too outdated to be marketable as part of free to play online game now and had to be revamped.

Although I concede that my argument really raises one question--why bother making a Mech Warrior game if art was to be revamped so thoroughly?

Aaron DeChavilier, comparing battle tech to star wars has one major problem; the classic star wars design will generate tons of revenue, while battle tech is limited to extremely niche market.

And you would be suprised how many people absolutely hate lot of tank designs in WH40k because of their complete lack of functionality in design It's amazing how Les Russman has no suspension what so ever, with extremely tall profile and almost no slope on armor... makes Les Russman look goofy as hell. But that's part of WH40k's design anyway--to look ridiculously unfeasible and redundant. However, I would argue that battle tech's universe is far from that (besides featuring mechs) and the old designs only detract from the universe's tone of featuring walking tanks.

[Tsen Shang]

Omigir, on 27 January 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Honestly, I think you all are just being picky. Its not what you wanted so now you are making a bizzar extrapolation that you yourself cant even define.There are 3 threads that this debate is flaming up over just becuase they made the centurion no long have a neck. Only change to the centurion. that is it. Other then that, it got the same 'upgrades' in visuals the Hunchback did. Do you know how complicated the human hand is to emulate? We still cant do it with even today technology.

So between the old Centurion picture and the new imagining of it, you can't spot any differences other than the neck? You need glasses, bro.

Also these:



And really, I can't define what I don't like? Did you even read my post?

Tsen Shang, on 27 January 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

The mech is projecting emotion. - The way it's standing, the angle it's been drawn at, and the way it's been drawn all give the mech emotions. - it doesn't look like a Centurion. - What's with the big fin on the shoulder? - What's with the chunky arm shield? - like a cross between a bird and a ripped, hunchbacked person

I could go on, but people don't want to read a list of EXACTLY why I don't like it, they just need the gist of it.

Gaizokubanou, on 27 January 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Art evolve like any other aspect of culture. Sorry that you are disappointed where this game's art is heading, but original battle tech art was way too outdated to be marketable as part of free to play online game now and had to be revamped.

Art absolutely evolves, but it also evolves with direction. Since apparently I need to start every post with this, I'll say it again: I like the rest of the reimagined mechs. This is the only one I have actively disliked, and I'm not alone in that. Yes, someone always whines when a redesign is posted, but as Aaron pointed out, there has never been this much revulsion to a redesign.




The amount of people who seem to dislike this mech with and without reasons speaks volumes. If you don't know how the brain works with split second decisions, read:




I would seriously recommend reading this book anyway, it's amazing! As well as the Tipping Point and Outliers, same guy.

[S3dition]

I actually prefer mechs without necks. It's actually much less "anime," as the Japanese seem to have a thing for adding heads to giants robots, even when that makes for horrible design flaws. The neck is the most vulnerable portion of any living creature, and heads really serve no purpose at all. In the Centurion's case, FB turned the "head" into a cockpit instead. These means no joints and better armor protection.

[SumthinBurnin]

first. pilot is in the head = wrong.
head is full of sensors cameras and such.
pilot (for macross at least) is always in the chest.
In macross the engines were in the legs not the center torso.
Makes a great decoy, once its shot off u cant see so u better transform and get outta dodge =]

[SumthinBurnin]

the griffon had shoulder plates on both arms very simular to the 1 the current centurion has

[Planerunner]

Quote

Because it doesn't even remind me of the Centurion. The lines aren't the same and if the name hadn't been attached to the image I would've struggled to guess what it was. The fin may have given it away, but apart from that and the hips, it's completely different.

For you noobs who just heard of this mechwarrior thing, I've got news for you, that's a good thing. As someone who played the tabletop before 1990 (in the snow, uphill, both ways), I can probably count on one hand how many people liked the original design. If someone is going to revamp the game, many original designs like the Centurion need to be locked in a vault and dumped in an under sea trench.

As for not recognizing what it is . . . Folks, this is classic trolling. OP, here's a tip. If you want to troll right, pick a mech someone is gonna care about (like, oh, the Atlas). This way you get a better class of troll bait. Don't be so freaking obvious about it.

Son, i am disappoint, indeed.

[RynCage]

Talks about trolling, has less than 20 posts, slings noob around in the first sentance, and is a complete smartass.

Back on topic though. Although the new design is off the beaten path i think it was a step in the right direction.
The only objections i have is about the legs, feet, and claw arm.

Edited by RynCage, 29 January 2012 - 01:26 AM.

[Leetskeet]

Planerunner, on 29 January 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

For you noobs who just heard of this mechwarrior thing, I've got news for you, that's a good thing. As someone who played the tabletop before 1990 (in the snow, uphill, both ways), I can probably count on one hand how many people liked the original design. If someone is going to revamp the game, many original designs like the Centurion need to be locked in a vault and dumped in an under sea trench.

As for not recognizing what it is . . . Folks, this is classic trolling. OP, here's a tip. If you want to troll right, pick a mech someone is gonna care about (like, oh, the Atlas). This way you get a better class of troll bait. Don't be so freaking obvious about it.

Son, i am disappoint, indeed.

And that's what people fail to comprehend. The original design of that thing is a pitiful adaptation of a japanese cartoon mecha. What's made MECHWARRIOR games stand out is that they kept the designs realistic and functional, for the most part. Old school battletech unfortunately simply does not because in its inception it was a copy and paste of Macross and Robotech. It's a sad but true reality and people need to accept it. It's moved on since then and has set itself apart as being a mostly realistc mech franchise.

Gundams and the like are all fun and good, and though I always found their little god-tier mobile suits, aka gundams, to be ridiculous, I still enjoyed stuff more on the Zeon side. But Gundams and Mobile Suits don't keep that aura of a feasable reality that modern Battletech has.

The concept art that the developers have released so far is easily the best thing that could happen to this franchise. I'm sorry, and I know that you like your unrealistic dingy centurion that looks like it couldn't even walk and operate let alone shoot at something, but it's time to embrace the fact that Mechwarrior is shedding the baggage and moving towards logical and functional designs. The games have always done this, because contrary to what you may think, the old designs look PATHETIC. They can't FUNCTION.

It's interesting how people seem to think that just because it's science fiction anything goes and is completely fine. It's fiction, right? Just because the Centurion looks like it weighs less than a car and couldn't outshoot a news helicopter doesn't mean there's anything wrong, this is fiction! Anything goes! Fortunately the Mechwarrior franchise escaped from that sad trap long ago. There are varying levels of realism, and modern Mechwarrior happens to aim for a more realistic and believable style of mechs. The new Centurion looks like it could rip whatever is infront of it apart. It would rape and pillage the old Centurion, if the old Centurion could even manage to move.

It's time to understand that you're attached to http://www.sarna.net..._Centurion1.jpg because of some loyalty you hold for OLDschool macrobattlerobotech. It's an unrealistic and flimsy design, and it just plain looks like crap. Realistic mechs don't run at each other with hatchets and swords. Realistic mechs don't have paper thin designs that clearly cannot function. Realistic mechs are bulky, functional. and full of weapons.

[Brakkyn]

ArchSight, on 26 January 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

The Mad Cat's cockpit is too large and will need to be smaller to prevent easy head shots.

I hope you're not suggesting the design be changed simply because it's easier to get head shots. That just the Mad Cat for you. FlyingDebris is redesigning the 'Mechs not to make them more tactically sound, but to give them a more modern look.

[Spinner]

I'm surprised that no one has covered this. The reason the cockpit is in the head is so when the massive fusion reactor goes critical, you have a chance to eject. There is no room in the torso for the cockpit to fit. Neck's or no necks, you still need to have the escape hatch.

[John Clavell]

Spinner, on 29 January 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

I'm surprised that no one has covered this. The reason the cockpit is in the head is so when the massive fusion reactor goes critical, you have a chance to eject. There is no room in the torso for the cockpit to fit. Neck's or no necks, you still need to have the escape hatch.

Torso Cockpits are indeed part of Battletech, and have only been restricted by the technology limitations prior to the recovery of the Helm Memory Core (Torso Cockpit). Irrespective of the torso cockpit there are Battlemechs which already don't eject the pilot out of the top of the Battlemech. I can't remember which Battlemech does it, but it effectively ejects you out of the back of the Mech. Reactor explosions in combat are extremely rare! Contrary to what has been depicted in MechWarrior games. But lack of Torso ejection is not so awesome. Though no so much of an issue in Solaris Areas.

Battlemechs don't need necks, the pilot already has a compressed 360 degree vision. This is far more effective than having a machine turn it's head to look at something. As too why some of the TRO art depicted Battlemechs being able to turn their heads I don't really know. It's either that the artists just went nuts and there was no real art direction in the earlier days of FASA.

I've also seen a lot of people saying that the Centurion is too japanese like? I get what that is meant to mean. But let's not forget, almost all of the original artwork for Battletech is based on or directly ripped from Macross, which is a Japanese Mecha Anime ffs. Also let's not forget that the Japanese pretty much invented 'Mecha', certainly in it's current pop culture form. Without Japanese 'Mecha' there might not even be a Battletech game today, It's pretty hard to not be influenced by Japanese 'Mecha' on some level considering the above.

Edited by John Clavell, 29 January 2012 - 04:51 AM.