64 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

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Alternative less problematic implimentation:

Setup:

Match system has 2 parties.

Team 1= Self define cohesive group, predefined at launch.
Team 2= Lone wolf pug team, each joins match but has separate objective and no communications sharing.

Match setup: mainly garrison/ as lone wolves are raiders/ pirates / or on their own mission. Lone wolves don't control territory.

Therefore que of size (12) lone wolf missions may be accepted by single players. When a sufficient number is reached it throws them in against an oraganize garrison/merc unit/ house. other things remain the same, but now an enemy is defined. Lone wolves can only grief other lone wolves if they so choose.

Garrison of 12 has to defend against 12 wolves, each with a different target, Thats a 12 point defense. Wolves do not have to win as a collective unit. Some may achieve their objective and some may lose.

scenario: 7 of the 12 wolves complete their mission. 5 are destroyed in their attempt. The 7 are happy in that they dont care about each other. They have made it. Each payout to the lone wolf is independent of other wolves. garrison is paid less for each mission they fail to guard against.

if the possible target where selected out of a choice list of greater then 12, then covering only 6 would not be sufficient. Say a 12 out of a total selection of 48 points existed. The random factor would be too great to for a constant 50% defend rate. This and targets would not be uniformly distributed as to make patrolling a necessity and prevent point camping.


Also if a wolf primary objective is defended they may choose tho complete their secondary or tertiary objected and withdraw and not experience a mission abandonment penalty.

The more collateral damage or wolf objectives completed, the less the garrison is paid.

Objectives need not be search and destroy, they may include identify buildings/ constructions, collecting information on garrison units, planting device / sabotage by holding position to for time needed to plant device, false flags but attacking a garrison / destroying a garrison, and retreating.
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First Proposal---------
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Solution valid Due to LP preventing missions hopping. Team Red or Blue cannot gain an additional scout due to number of attempts a map hopping to match random game eating away all their LP needed to start the mission.

If a match room is created:

Player count = 12 team 1
Player count = 12 team 2
Third Party count = max additional instances at once = X (not team)

While a match is going on, 12 reds may be fighting 12 blue. with server option to allow X instances into the game while it is in play.

A lone wolf who has accepts a contract unrelated to either side may join in the match and achieve their unrelated object. *More detail on secondpost (1)

Exit of their instance takes place in these forms:

1) mission fulfilled and exit or map by reaching edge,
2) mission abandoned by exit of map by edge,

3) Lone Wolf is destroyed
*More detail on secondpost (2)
4) Game Timer expire

*More detail on secondpost (3)
5) Red and Blue achieve objective and end game.


Benefits:

Recon, Scouting, Raiding, Target destructing, Convert Missions in general, achieve real time, real content, player base provided challenges. Pirates, Bounties for infamous scoundrels.

A recon "spy" unit may run into two unfriendly forces and be stuck in between a battle.
Additonal Realism in that combat takes in another dimension of unexpectancy in counteracting espionage.
Garison based missions are justified... People Do Not Know ahead of time and prepare a defense if a covert act is upon them.

Problems and solutions
1) If a lone wolf joins and they belong to the other house WTH the side is suddenly uneven.
A. The Lone wolf does NOT GET PAID for helping the other side. He only is paid for his objective. Anyhelp would just be risking being exposed or be additional repair cost.

2) GameTimer
A. Give Lone Wolves a reasonable amount of time to achieve their objective when joining a game. Block entry to any game that does not have the minimum amount of time left.

Either main team achieves victory
3) Team Red or Blue is notified of "detection" of additional forces. Game will not end until they are destroyed, leave, or play time runs out.

Edited by ManDaisy, 08 February 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[ManDaisy]

deleted link to mother post.

Edited by ManDaisy, 07 February 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[ManDaisy]

http://mwomercs.com/...forced-teaming/ Mother post

Edited by ManDaisy, 07 February 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[Kaemon]

ummm... where to begin....hmmmm...

Ok so let's organize this a bit for the people who are having a hard time following the multi-threaded disparate argument.

You want a single player grief style special access, no responsibility for you actions, I'm the only one that thinks this is worthwhile so please spend massive amounts of time coding this, balance breaking, game altering, instant death assuring, confusion inducing, console imitating, canon destroying, functionaly deficient play style option because you don't like groups?

That about right?

[Outlaw2]

Kaemon, on 07 February 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

ummm... where to begin....hmmmm...

Ok so let's organize this a bit for the people who are having a hard time following the multi-threaded disparate argument.

You want a single player grief style special access, no responsibility for you actions, I'm the only one that thinks this is worthwhile so please spend massive amounts of time coding this, balance breaking, game altering, instant death assuring, confusion inducing, console imitating, canon destroying, functionaly deficient play style option because you don't like groups?

That about right?

I approve of this message.

I think if you want a single player experience, you are following the wrong game.

[ManDaisy]

How can I grief if I can be blown up for either side? Griefing implies team mates not helping that you cant hurt. I dont see how this a a problem. Lone wolf is a lone wolf, not part of any team. Not invincible. Has to pay for own repairs. Not in own interest to get involved as will lead to being shot at. Sneaking is key to completing mission. Etc etc etc.

Kaemon you could not be anymore wrong is your assessment.

I challenge you to coming up with any scenario that cant be solved with blowing a third party lone wolf to bits. No responsibility? How about not getting causing a ruckas and having both teams take you as a hostile? Thats 24 vs 1 stupid lone wolf.

Sure some lone wolves may be hired to fill spots. But lone wolves SHOULD be able to do solo missions. Solo implies NOT on anyone's team.

Yes while a lone wolf may be single in that is the definition of lone, certainly the other two teams that are unaffiliated are not.

Fact: There is nothing cannon destroying of any nature. Black Ops is common place. Spy Operations, Subterfuge is common place. Political intrigue and setting someone up to look like the bad guy is common place.

Please be more detail oriented in your further assessments. I have no problem with team play. I do have a problem with dumbing down the games potential.

Consoles? PAH! I laugh at your consoles. That is the only thing I will open acknowledge being mean to you about. Enjoy your mechassault. For that is what consoles spawn.

Edited by ManDaisy, 07 February 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

if i waste ammunition on you instead of the enemy it puts me at a disadvantage...and i will be wasting ammunition on anyone who isnt flying my teams colors.

Edited by Geist Null, 07 February 2012 - 10:37 PM.

[ManDaisy]

You want your dinner served on a golden platter? You want things to be easy? The other team could be my objective just as much as you. Priorities Priorities . If I had to do something and get away with it it would certainly be the time when the city garrison was distracted defending off invaders. Then I could just waltz on in. Only thing is you don't know what my objective is. Lone wolf after all. Best to blow up anything not on your team on site as you say.

Edited by ManDaisy, 07 February 2012 - 10:48 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Lone Wolves (no matter what their motivation is for actually being a Lone Wolf) are meant to be filler for missions/matches so that they aren't delayed unnecessarily by lack of personnel on one side or another. Having them muck around doing independent objectives is a Bad Idea™.

[ManDaisy]

Unless your a dev that statement is invalid. As to your opinion to I have no say in. I will be happy to keep defending until people lose interest or I hear a judgement call from any staff.

Edited by ManDaisy, 07 February 2012 - 11:01 PM.

[Omigir]

: \ this makes no sens. Some random lone wolf gets a mission to do something on a battle site? As soon as that lone wolf was spotted, *BOTH* teams would shoot him and call it a day.

and that is not including the fact that what Kaemon and Outlaw said.

Durant Carlyle, on 07 February 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Lone Wolves (no matter what their motivation is for actually being a Lone Wolf) are meant to be filler for missions/matches so that they aren't delayed unnecessarily by lack of personnel on one side or another. Having them muck around doing independent objectives is a Bad Idea™.

ManDaisy, on 07 February 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Unless you a dev that statement is invalid. Tho I will be happy keeping defending until people lose interest or I hear a judgement call from any staff.

Also, deves have already stated that is what Lone wolves are, Durant is right. Read the dev blogs.

Edited by Omigir, 07 February 2012 - 11:01 PM.

[ManDaisy]

Perhaps they may expand their definition? Perhaps not. I remember a dragon used to only have 1 arm and 1 stump.

Edited by ManDaisy, 07 February 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[Omigir]

They could expand it... but keep in mind, your idea still gives room for an unbalanced and there for unfair fight. any time it weavers from even teams, there is a problem. True, you can ballance that out with weight per say prior to launch, but having it randomly thrown out of wack in the middle of a match after launch and to where you cant counter ballance is rediculious. To much of a chance that any of those mid joins could pick a side and start helping one side or the other. Or just run through and pick kills from either side. Its along the same lines of making treason a legit game mechanic. It causes more problems then it solves.

[ManDaisy]

So why would I help either side if there is nothing in it for me? Asides from being shot at. As a lone wolf enter randomly I don't see how any collusion as lone wolves would be assigned after a game is already in progress. If you want to be a **** and oh there will be jerks nothing you can do about that, they will have to rely on the luck of landing in game they know their friends are in. Would any sort of info be shared between lone wolf and NOT on team team? Nope as there is no communication bridge between them but outside the game teamspeak. As you are a covert agent its not in your interest to go racking up the kills. Thats just like saying hey! Shoot ME! Guess what? As a lone wolf is on neither team, thats prob just extra salvage for the winning side unless they haul *** when their done. To make a point this "lone wolf" is a solo lone wolf as opposed to a space filler "Hire".

Edited by ManDaisy, 07 February 2012 - 11:20 PM.

[Omigir]

People will be jerks, true, why give them more tools to do the job with then?
as far as friends or not, they may just pick the winning side and start stealing kills. Communication or not, this is a tool that can be used to unbalance the game and there for is bad. Just as bad as being able to use Cash to buy high damage ammunition, clan mechs, and all around pay to win. : \ sorry mandaisy, there is no way to do this without it being a possible unballance and or make sens in the world.

[ManDaisy]

I dont think kills will be your objective if your on a covert mission. Yes killing is a big part of the game. But why kill when it doesn't do anything for you unless its self defense? Convert missions implies Mission: don't be spotted, don't make a scene, you have an objective stick to it, that your employer wont pay you anything for blowing stuff up hes not asking you to do. Do I have to blow anyone up to steal value information from ABC company? Do I have to blow anything up to stay at once spot long enough to poison the only source of water for miles? Do I have to blow anything up to collect information on the number and factions of the battling unit? These missions can be non interferance, non kill missions. Things need not be a 0 sum game, however your employers would't take kinda to letting me do as I please without taking a cut outta your check. The world is soooo big.

Edited by ManDaisy, 07 February 2012 - 11:31 PM.

[Omigir]

The problem isn't what you will or wont do, it is what other people will or wont do. Not to mention poisoning water is a warcrime...
The thing with a player community is, if you want to do something like you are sugesting, you have to impliment so many restrictions to make sure they dont just go out there and just start greifing people, that people may as well just not do it at all.

Perfect example. EVE online. People roam around in groups in small ships with one soul purpose, go into non combat zones to kill miners and such. They gain NOTHING from doing this, and in fact loose in game money and standing just to mess with other players and get kills.

Not to mention the people that take a single ship, load it up as a suicide bomber and ram them into other ships for the same purpose, agian, with no other reason then to just grief. So no, we should not give them a tool to do with this. Last thing I want is to be in the middle of a battle, barly skim my way to a victory to have some Lone wolf come in mid match and start taking sides because he CAN. Because your mission type one man comando self glory idea allows him to do that. : \ Sorry mate, no dice.

[ManDaisy]

So let me get this strait... your afraid your team wont be able to make up for 1 or 2 unpredictable factors. All your fights are gonna have to be perfectly even. Heaven forbid the odds turn against you. If your unit loses due to some lone wolf deciding to hang around and kill you after you've both beaten each other senseless its your own fault for ignoring a possible enemy. Origim balancing rewards and penalties for winning and losing would all there need to be to make sure in most cases it isnt worth it to start trouble.

Tho I have posted before in RP as a lone wolf, stop attributing this to me alone. I am advocating not for myself but to create a game better then the common game.

This brings me to another issue. Hopefully there is a restriction on drop weight as to avoid people bringing in assault mechs for recon missions. If its restricted to mediums or lights that makes sense and will prevent as you fear, abuse. Missions would have a pre-requirement to be acceptable based on the mech types I would assume.

Edited by ManDaisy, 08 February 2012 - 12:00 AM.

[Omigir]

You have no idea how much 1 mech can swing a match. particularly if he is fresh and half of both teams are damn near cored.

Simple factor, dont give the trolls and grifers tools to make the gaming community unpleasant. If you idea was placed into separate instances and apart of an NPC or PVE version that can be added latter.

Further more, if no one knows why the lone wolf is there, why would either side try and stop him. At that point, if no one cares he is there and he is not bothering the battle, why not have him simply drop on an empty map to do the same thing. : \ To me, it sounds like you are just trying to make up a reason for you to be in a match by yourself, on your own team with no restrictions on who you can shoot. It does not make sens.

[Captain Hat]

This is frankly a daft suggestion and I really don't see why you think it would be even remotely a good idea.

You're looking at it from too narrow a viewpoint, as a lot of people on these boards seem to do: You're imagining that all the other players are like yourself, rather than assessing them as they truly are. You might be a nice guy, intending to RP the Lone Wolf slot and thinking this would be a nice way to add some depth to the battles.

Other people are not like you. In fact, if you actually carried through on what you are saying here about how you would play it, that would probably make you a much nicer person than the vast majority of the people on the Internet. Do you know why? Obviously you do not, or you wouldn't have made this suggestion in the first place. So I'll tell you.

People on the internet are dicks to each other. All the time. For no other reason than "because they felt like it" and even at huge ingame penalty to themselves.

The second thing you fail to take into account is competitive play. If, for example, an established merc unit sees a way to gain an advantage from this, they will take it: For example, depending how the matchmaker works, the lone wolf clicking "deploy" or whatever at a certain time during the matchmaking process may increase the likelihood of that player getting into the game. This isn't such a problem on, for example, World of Tanks, where where if a whole bunch of guys all click "play" at the same time they will likely get into the same game, because the teams are still randomised- you usually end up with about half the guys on each team- but here, with faction alignment, the teams will not randomise- you know all your guys are gonna be on the same side, and if you can get a decent chance at filling the Lone Wolf slot with a member of your own unit you're going to do it. It will give you an edge in the game, and even without full data sharing it gives you an extra scout for free.

It's not the intended use of the idea, and it may be hard to do, but people WILL figure it out and it WILL get done- people figure out more complicated ways of bugging games or solving problems all the time. "Lone Wolf" slots will basically just be another way for merc units to bolster their chances of winning, or for random players to act like jerks. It won't even matter that the Lone Wolf player will lose out from doing it- if they're part of an organised unit, there will almost certainly be an ingame mechanism for the unit to reward them for their actions, and even if there isn't people will figure out a way to make it worth their while.

Hell, in WoT- where griefing your own team can cost literally hundreds of thousands of ingame credits depending on what tank you drive, and at the higher tiers credits are at something of a premium a lot of the time- people still grief each other. This is small beer by comparison, and your proposed mechanism only makes it easier, regardless of what type of 'mech the Lone Wolf uses.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but this whole idea just strikes me as being almost impossible to implement without causing a frankly ridiculous amount of problems. Not because it wouldn't be a fun mechanic- the idea does sound really cool- but because if you can trust people on the Internet for anything (other than Rule #34), it is that they will be enormous hairy wangjockeys to each other.

Edited by Captain Hat, 08 February 2012 - 01:13 AM.