63 replies to this topic

[xSNAKEx]

In the past heavies have always been almost unbeatable by a light at 1 vs 1 combat, (yet skilled players still managed it agaisnt noobs). Skilled player vs skilled player meant a light would need 5-10 respawns before it took the heavy down once, and this only makes sense if you were to imagine anything close to a logical scenario, especially in a mech "Sim".

However, there some to be a modern trend in games of trying to balance the classes, no matter how bizzare it may seem (Its like asking a 18 Wheeler truck crashing into a Prius and expecting the car to win half the time),
This usually ends up with making the most logical outcome, which is a heavy almost certainly always beating a light, seem ironically the hardest to accomplish. I have seen it happen with many games in the past.


For example the devs become aware of the balance "issue" and player whining, and they take strong steps to really maim most inherent positives of a heavy trait, while simultaneously amplifying any inherent negatives.
So to speculate, not only do they make the heavy classless much slower, much harder to turn, etc which makes sense and as to be expected, but also, on the other hand they only have relatively little more health than the mediums or lights, and relatively little more firepower etc. So essentially the lighter classes can run rings around them and beat them quite easily!
On top of all this, from the videos I saw about the mech reactor going critical and exploding, I can see this being a balancing measure as well. Thus, say you are a heavy, whenever you kill a lighter faster mech in combat, unless you do it from what seems REALLY far away they end up taking you out as well from the explosion, and nullifying victory over them, even further making the heavy class even more pointless and painstaking to use.

So you end up with a game where the "heavy" or high firepower class is good for some “Oh Yea!..” style novelty fun, but is never really worth using in the grand scheme of things because instead of being a luxury it is a hinderance even in deathmatch, let alone other game modes

Which is a shame as we all know heavies are fat, slow, not good for in many regards, but they should be feared on the battlefield and have devastating effects (not laughed at which is what happens when devs try to balance something that should not be balanced.)

I wonder if this game will fall to this pressure and make it so that heavies can only dominate under very specific, niche scenarios. because people may complain about heavies being dominating not because it makes any sense but just because they don’t like loosing and they prefer playing with a quick light-mid range.

To sum up, devs please make sure heavies are still very feared. THIS IS THE SECRET HERB AND SPICE THAT MAKES MECHWARRIOIR FEEL SPECIAL. If all the classes get balanced out this fear element will be gone, and it will ultimately end up up feeling dull and uninspiring. The gameplay will turn out playing out like any other fps shooter but with mechs.
Think of how rare this fear element is to capture in a online multiplayer deathmatch game and try your best not to loose it, especially when Mechwarrioir naturally has this factor with the heavies! You take this away you're ripped the soul of the the genre.

Think of other countermeasures to stop everyone going heavy. For example make the mech slower to move. turn, overheat, make a faction for heavy class mech fans but they earn less exp when they get a kill compared to lighter classes, etc. In addition smaller Mechs will have to run and take pot shots or work in groups to beat a heavy but one can only annoy (they naturally gang up on heavies anyway), but whatever you do don’t reduce the heavies massive Armor and firepower to the point its no longer ridiculous.

Edited by xSNAKEx, 09 March 2012 - 03:54 AM.

[Sinitron]

You've misunderstood - the point isn't to make heavies and lights equal, but to ensure lights are viable and even desirable. In a one-on-one fight, a heavy will demolish a light, but that light doesn't necessarily have to engage head-on. It could call in a support strike (from what I understand) to bomb snipers sitting around, or relay intel to the rest of the team, allowing for flanking maneuvers etc, while also ensuring that the terrain allows for creative use of the mobility lights can offer. Lights also gain more points, and have always been more fun to pilot.

That being said, if something is too good, it's too good, and will be balanced accordingly. There will be balance problems during beta and early launch, people will find and exploit abusive set-ups - in this scenario, if a Dragon mercilessly beats everything on the battlefield, the Dragon will be adjusted in some way. This is normal, and acceptable. There should not be an "I WIN"-button, or a chassis that is good at everything.

[Elizander]

Sinitron, on 09 March 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

You've misunderstood - the point isn't to make heavies and lights equal, but to ensure lights are viable and even desirable.

I agree with this. The point is not for 1v1 combat. Lights are primarily scouts. If the heavy pilot sucks, then you can kill him, if not, you die because he just has more firepower than you. You take your potshots and run away while keeping him on the radar for your bigger pals.

[Canniballistic]

If someone sucks, piloting a heavy or assault isn't going to save them and niether should it, but youre assuption that they will (let alone have any reason to) nerf heavies specificly is beyond rediculous.

Trust the devs to balance the game and don't go complaining imballance if a lighter mech rips you apart.

[Kiyoshi Amaya]

As far as I'm aware, Nerf guns will not be implemented as a viable weapon option.

[Odin]

Snake, new to this?
You may want to look here link lots of useful infos and the answer to your worries.
In short: No. A heavy beats a light any time, if we don't consider pilot skill and situation. And No again, you can beat even an assault, if situation is right for it. Besides, of course your main job as a light Mech isn't to be the "finisher", if you get my meaning; your the one starting the chase, the killing moves are something you got to be very carefull about in any Mech - see the actual game video we have from GDC.

Balancing in MWO - as I understand this at this point - comes not by any "nerving" or "boosting" of anything, its achieved by smart game design, mostly cos of realistic LOS/RADAR and a well thought out role warfare and Mech simulation.

[xSNAKEx]

Sinitron, on 09 March 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

You've misunderstood - the point isn't to make heavies and lights equal, but to ensure lights are viable and even desirable. In a one-on-one fight, a heavy will demolish a light, but that light doesn't necessarily have to engage head-on. It could call in a support strike (from what I understand) to bomb snipers sitting around, or relay intel to the rest of the team, allowing for flanking maneuvers etc, while also ensuring that the terrain allows for creative use of the mobility lights can offer. Lights also gain more points, and have always been more fun to pilot.

That being said, if something is too good, it's too good, and will be balanced accordingly. There will be balance problems during beta and early launch, people will find and exploit abusive set-ups - in this scenario, if a Dragon mercilessly beats everything on the battlefield, the Dragon will be adjusted in some way. This is normal, and acceptable. There should not be an "I WIN"-button, or a chassis that is good at everything.

No, I get the feeling you don't expect this but I 100% agree with you. What you describe makes sense perfect.

But I think you missed my point also, and that is what usually happens when the devs try to avoid a logical "I WIN" button , is at the end of it all you end up making the expected dominating or heavy firepower class twice as hard to use because to begin with everyone started using them, including noobs, people got annoyed and they were "balanced".

In turn, Ironically opposite effect of what common sense should tell you happens, and thats if you compared two mechs, obviously the huger one with more firepower will win. But in the game they make alterations so this is reversed. And so, the heavy class becomes the spealized class that needs skill. And the ones doing all the complaining that the heavy was too powerful and requires no skill, are now playing the easy peasy class which is ussualy the light-med because it required the least thinking and planning. No that should be to the heavy class!

Its like in tribes, everyone complains about the heavy class but it requires the most skill, and thats why you see 30 light players for every 1 Juggernaut even in a deathmatch, not because people have some sort of ethic where supposedly your not supposed to use a heavy, its because they complain about it but the'yd suck at it if they tried. An average player in a light can run rings around an average player in a heavy because realistically they only have 2-3 as much HP as the light but are 10x as vulnerable because they have to spend 10x as long on the ground than in the air. So it is 5x as hard to play with.

Edited by xSNAKEx, 09 March 2012 - 04:32 AM.

[Hador]

Sinitron, on 09 March 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

You've misunderstood - the point isn't to make heavies and lights equal, but to ensure lights are viable and even desirable.

Can't say much more than that.


I expect a light to blow up quite fast when going 1on1 with a heavy, but that usually is not the point of a light Mech. But when he relays the location of the heavy mech to a nearby lance of heavies/assaults while harrassing the heavy a bit then he's done everything you could ask for.

[xSNAKEx]

Odin yes I am new to this , but I was a big fan of MW1, 2 and 4 (3 repelled me like a magnet for some reason)

[LordDeathStrike]

as long as the devs dont listen to the criers (you know who you are, youre the (new players) that get into a mech you dont have the xp to drive or the skills to handle, a light parks on your back and owns you, then you hop on and cry nerf) then we will be good.

ps, if youre in the small mech and you go toe to toe with the atlas, you gonna lose, only another atlas can sit in front of an atlas 1 on 1, anything else needs to get the hell out of his sights, if hes not afk or left handed you gonna die (no offense to lefties, i was just being humerous)

[Cruiser]

xSNAKEx, on 09 March 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

No, I get the feeling you don't expect this but I 100% agree with you. What you describe makes sense perfect.

But I think you missed my point also, and that is what usually happens when the devs try to avoid a logical "I WIN" button , is at the end of it all you end up making the expected dominating or heavy firepower class twice as hard to use because to begin with everyone started using them, including noobs, people got annoyed and they were "balanced".

In turn, Ironically opposite effect of what common sense should tell you happens, and thats if you compared two mechs, obviously the huger one with more firepower will win. But in the game they make alterations so this is reversed. And so, the heavy class becomes the spealized class that needs skill. And the ones doing all the complaining that the heavy was too powerful and requires no skill, are now playing the easy peasy class which is ussualy the light-med because it required the least thinking and planning. No that should be to the heavy class!

Its like in tribes, everyone complains about the heavy class but it requires the most skill, and thats why you see 30 light players for every 1 Juggernaut even in a deathmatch, not because people have some sort of ethic where supposedly your not supposed to use a heavy, its because they complain about it but the'yd suck at it if they tried. An average player in a light can run rings around an average player in a heavy because realistically they only have 2-3 as much HP as the light but are 10x as vulnerable because they have to spend 10x as long on the ground than in the air. So it is 5x as hard to play with.

I understand your concern Snake, but if you remember the old mechwarrior games you would also see that pretty much everyone was driving assault/heavy mechs. This was due to the fact that the games was all about who had the most armor and more firepower, nothing else mattered.

What the developers are trying to do is to give every class of mech something that they can contribute to the fight with. Assaults and heavies will still be the ones that slug it out in heavy brawls, but the light mechs will be the eyes of the attack group, keeping an eye on the enemy, watching out for flanking manouvres and doing some prodding/harassment of the enemy units.

Assaulters will be no less feared, if you run into a fight with an Atlas you will still crap your shorts, but you will also not be able to dismiss a Jenner since it will be telling all its friends where you are and bring the hurt down on you.

Of course there is a good chance that there will be an imbalance somewhere along the line. Weapons that performs too well, or combinations of modules that is just so strong that everyone uses it. Those kinda things are inevitable, but thats what the beta is for, as well as post-launch balancing.

The devs are a group who are huge fans of the franchise and I believe that it is that love, along with not having a unreasonable publisher *cough* EA *cough* making them do bad design decisions, that will help ensure that this game will be a really good Mechwarrior game.

Edited by Cruiser, 09 March 2012 - 04:43 AM.

[Cyote13]

You need to remember that this is supposed to be a team driven game. If you are in a heavy or assault mech by yourself, then you are going to get eaten by a group of lighter mechs. The big guys need to stay together and use wing-man tactics and they will pound any light that gets close.

And the reactor explosion will probably not be all that big a radius.

I have never played Tribes...but this isn't Tribes, and actually it will probably be easier for most people to play a heavy well than it will be to be a scout well.

[LordKnightFandragon]

For the love of all things sane, I Hope they DONT do anything like that....What I do know they have mentioned is each mech class will have its Role to fulfill. Lights are to scout and report back enemy positions, not so much to fight. Can it? Sure, if the pilot is skilled enough and witty. Should the Heavy be 'balanced" or w/e so the light can take him 1 on 1? No...I hope this game doenst go the way of WizkidsGames AOD Clix game where Heavies and Assaults plain simply were Garbage to play...the lights retained EVERY advantage in that game:
Faster, Cheaper, more fire power, better gear, better pilots, just as good accuracy ratings, MUCH better defense....The big boys simply were not viable.

I really hope they do NOT cater and give in the little kids who want to drive their Jenner against an Atlas, get schooled and then come cry OP, Atlas is OP, NERF iT! Stick to the TT as they are now and give us a friggin MW Sim, not a friggin, WoT with mechs....

[Max OConnor]

What I DON'T want to see is a Heavy or Assault mech that can move like a light mech because I got so sick of seeing every freaking player end up in a MadCat MKII, link fire their twin Gauss rifles and go BOOM Headshot every game. This is in MW4, there was zero reason to play most anything lighter because the Heavies and Assaults moved like a medium imho.

Sure you get all the firepower and armor, you should also have a movement curve like a semi as well. You don't get everything when you go big. In the original game story, Assaults were super rare, Heavies next and then Mediums and lighter mechs were very prevalent. When you saw an assault mech you RAN, cause they ruled but also you don't see them all the time.

Personally I know my limitations as a gamer, I'm not all that coordinated and I've never been good at FPS games my whole life, so I know I would not be a good Assault pilot, too many dang weapons to choose from. If I have over 3 different weapons I get too overwhelmed and can't play it well.
I'd like a nice upper end Medium or a lower end Heavy, which is why I love my Ostroc and or Rifleman. I do want to feel as a long time player I have a role to play in the grand scheme, other than racking up one shot kills as in MW4.

I really hope mechs of every class will be needed to fulfill missions and not make Assaults and or Heavies rule the battlefield alone.

So far I like what I've read, now I just have to see how it plays out in game.

[Beaker]

In MW4 especially, if you knew how to load and use your light you could kill a heavy half the time, and an assault about 25% of the time. Your real enemy as a light mech is a fast medium with medium range guns. I used to stand off with a light gauss in an Uller, and got rather good at leading headshots from 750m out. Likewise the raven loaded with arty beacons, or getting in there and dropping a NARC on something for your team to destroy.

Lights are not useless, they just take a particular type of player who is willing to put the time in to REALLY learn the limits of the mech. Not many people will put up with being owned for a month to learn what a chassis can do.

[BanzaiEd]

From what we have seen of the heavy releases so far, there will be no nerfing necessary. The Dragon is only a heavy by 5 tons and the Catapult by 10. Both can be decent mechs, but a medium pilot who is paying attention could take down either. Light mechs aren't going to win anything 1 on 1 so that comparison is not relevant.

[MajorLeeHung]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 March 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Stick to the TT as they are now and give us a friggin MW Sim, not a friggin, WoT with mechs....

^ This. Well said

BanzaiEd, on 09 March 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Light mechs aren't going to win anything 1 on 1 so that comparison is not relevant.

^ this too!

Edited by MajorLeeHung, 09 March 2012 - 05:04 AM.

[Randal Waide]

Heavy's have x-armor. And a medium laser = a medium laser. I can't see the grounds for your worries. It will be ok, really.

[xSNAKEx]

Cruiser, on 09 March 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

I understand your concern Snake, but if you remember the old mechwarrior games you would also see that pretty much everyone was driving assault/heavy mechs. This was due to the fact that the games was all about who had the most armor and more firepower, nothing else mattered.

What the developers are trying to do is to give every class of mech something that they can contribute to the fight with. Assaults and heavies will still be the ones that slug it out in heavy brawls, but the light mechs will be the eyes of the attack group, keeping an eye on the enemy, watching out for flanking manouvres and doing some prodding/harassment of the enemy units.

Assaulters will be no less feared, if you run into a fight with an Atlas you will still crap your shorts, but you will also not be able to dismiss a Jenner since it will be telling all its friends where you are and bring the hurt down on you.

Of course there is a good chance that there will be an imbalance somewhere along the line. Weapons that performs too well, or combinations of modules that is just so strong that everyone uses it. Those kinda things are inevitable, but thats what the beta is for, as well as post-launch balancing.

The devs are a group who are huge fans of the franchise and I believe that it is that love, along with not having a unreasonable publisher *cough* EA *cough* making them do bad design decisions, that will help ensure that this game will be a really good Mechwarrior game.

Nicely said. Oh Man I cant remember the last time I was looking forward to a game as much as this. You guys not only calmed my worries but also got me more excited.

The fact they have roles makes it infinitely better. As long as they retain FULL player flexibility I am happy. For example even as a defense if you decide you want go and join the front lines (even though you are slow as *profanity of choice*) you still can if you want to. Nothing stupid like "you are leaving you designated mission area"

Cyote13, on 09 March 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

You need to remember that this is supposed to be a team driven game. If you are in a heavy or assault mech by yourself, then you are going to get eaten by a group of lighter mechs. The big guys need to stay together and use wing-man tactics and they will pound any light that gets close.

And the reactor explosion will probably not be all that big a radius.

I have never played Tribes...but this isn't Tribes, and actually it will probably be easier for most people to play a heavy well than it will be to be a scout well.

Hmm why do you say that I remember taking on about 5 Ravens at once in a Daishi on MW4 online and winning without breaking a sweat. It was 1, or 2 at most shots each.

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 March 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

For the love of all things sane, I Hope they DONT do anything like that....What I do know they have mentioned is each mech class will have its Role to fulfill. Lights are to scout and report back enemy positions, not so much to fight. Can it? Sure, if the pilot is skilled enough and witty. Should the Heavy be 'balanced" or w/e so the light can take him 1 on 1? No...I hope this game doenst go the way of WizkidsGames AOD Clix game where Heavies and Assaults plain simply were Garbage to play...the lights retained EVERY advantage in that game:
Faster, Cheaper, more fire power, better gear, better pilots, just as good accuracy ratings, MUCH better defense....The big boys simply were not viable.

I really hope they do NOT cater and give in the little kids who want to drive their Jenner against an Atlas, get schooled and then come cry OP, Atlas is OP, NERF iT! Stick to the TT as they are now and give us a friggin MW Sim, not a friggin, WoT with mechs....

Yea man looks like you are my separated at birth sibling. I have noticed this trend too in videogames. There is a "hate" for anything heavy so the devs cave and nerf it beyond belief or they themselves don't use that class in their betas so they purposely nerf it.
I know what you mean, the lighter stuff is faster cheaper, easier to use and requires so little effort to be effective with.

You try to play the heavy class because you know yourself as player and what tactics makes sense to you and then after a long time trying you finaly try the lighther classes and you think "Are you freaking serious, its THIS easy not to be a heavy?

It feels like such an uphill battle being a heavy in most.

I’m a mech sim I imagine in a heavy you should be the one sipping your coffee in the cockpit and not worrying

Also don’t forget who is most vulnerable in the real gaming world, with lag and higher latency that the devs have during testing? the heavies! Regardless of lag you are just sitting there taking all the fire and the fast players are not registering your hits or are warping.

Edited by xSNAKEx, 09 March 2012 - 05:28 AM.

[Cyote13]

xSNAKEx, on 09 March 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

Hmm why do you say that I remember taking on about 5 Ravens at once in a Daishi on MW4 online and winning without breaking a sweat. It was 1, or 2 at most shots each.

This isn't MW4, that being said, if it is only 5 Ravens against a Daishi then you should still win quite handedly, but in this game there are going to be 8 other mechs out there that the 5 ravens are spotting for. If they charge you they deserve to die, but with the ideas of this game those 5 ravens will have you bracketed all around and you wont be able to hide from the Cat that is raining down fire on you from across the map.