29 replies to this topic

[Capt Cole 117]

Since ams is now a normal weapon it follows that I could equip 4 or more and stick near my lance mates to protect them.

[Psydotek]

Hmmm, i'd wager that the AMS may only destroy missiles targeted at your mech...

[Banshee Bullet]

Psydotek, on 04 April 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Hmmm, i'd wager that the AMS may only destroy missiles targeted at your mech...

That makes sense. I do like the idea of multiple ams though, that would be great.

[Stormwolf]

Well, Total War has this in the rules section for AMS:

Quote

Only 1 AMS can engage 1 missile weapon in a turn, regardless
of how many AMS cover the attack direction. If a unit mounts
more than 1 AMS that covers the same attack direction, the
defender chooses the order in which they activate and against
which missile weapons they infl ict their modifiers.

I think that PGI will think of something here.

[William Petersen]

I'm not exceptionally experienced with the TT rules regarding AMS, I don't think they would shoot down missiles that were not due to impact the Mech upon which they were mounted. I don't know if there was a mode you engage to shoot down any incoming missiles in range of the AMS.

[Nexus Trimean]

It would be Interesting to see a Sort of Point Defense Mech. Able to intercept Missile weapons fired at your team, but i don't know that its feasible or even in universe. Modern Navel vessels mount up a couple Phalax CWIS or some RIM-116's to use for both themselves and any other ships in there battle group, it would make sense to let mechs do the same.

A way to limit it would be Require the all the Mechs to have either a module or piece of equipment that networks them together and allows them to share targeting data to nearby friendly AMS's. In order to take advantage of it they would have to give up a valuable Mod slot or some amount of tonnage. Also there would be a max range, that wouldnt be very far, maybe must be inside 50ish meters, (adjoining hex basically)

Edited by Nexus Trimean, 04 April 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Just one AMS boat would render any missile boat useless. PGI would not allow such high levels of cheddar.

[Johannes Falkner]

They also do unmentionable things to infantry in hex.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

Well, even if you could cover your mates with your AMS, it would mean you are standing/walking/running pretty close to them, which makes you both easier targets. Do you think it's worth it?)))

[Wyzak]

AMS is generally able to target hostile missiles no matter who they are targeting, this has been seen in several of the games now. I imagine the commander role or another module may enhance your ability to Aegis your teammates...


EDIT... But having said that, it makes sense to make AMS very ammo dependent (and have LAMS causing significant amounts of heat buildup) in order to prevent abusing this system to artificially cheapen enemy missile attacks.

Edited by Wyzak, 04 April 2012 - 10:47 PM.

[Pvt Dancer]

I could see the idea working if a Modual worked in tandem with the AMS to allow it to target all missiles in a small area... that could even be turned into a role... defensive/bodyguard for Command mechs and LRM boats.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

I guarantee you that just because you may have 4+ AMS systems on your 'mech, that it would be worth it in tonnage, ammo, loss critical space, and the potential of internal ammo explosions if you don't have a CASE. Also, who said it would be even remotely as effective as AMS systems were in any preivous MechWarrior rendition?

I mean, by all means if you really wanna spend all the extra money, tonnage and critical slots on your 'mech go for it. No doubt it would probably cause a massive headache for missile lovers, but I'm ganna just go ahead and speculate that there will probably be some harsh diminishing returns on the effectiveness on each additional AMS. Plus, you're eating up that much more AMS ammo with every AMS (duh, naturally) and even then we don't know how much ammo per ton we get.

But I'm not arguing with you at all in the idea of "nah, you can't have more than one". It would be kinda cool to see some 'mechs try to be defensive oriented but I personally don't think it would really be worth it when trying to make your 'mech as effective as possible. I'd go for just 1 to "thin out" some incoming missile fire and accompany it with an ECM to try to just avoid the incoming missile fire altogether.

[EDMW CSN]

5 AMS = 2.5 tons.
A decent supply of ams ammo = 10 tons (2 tons per AMS)

12.5 tons used up to be an Aegis mech or would you prefer a bunch of LRM10s to counter fire ?

[Johannes Falkner]

I think their effectiveness should drop off with the angle of attack. When the missiles are flying at you the angle of attack is near zero so the apparent flight path is straight (and any bullet hits travel the length of the missile, maximizing damage). The more off angle the missiles are, the harder they will be to hit and the lower the chances will be that any single hit will be catastrophic.

[LordDeathStrike]

ams are only effective vs mrm and lrm missiles, srms are fired too close to be shot down effectively, at least in normal bt rules.

as per ams mounts, most mechs with ams have 1, a few like atlas master and commander variant have 2 ams, and angel ecm, but give up firepower to carry it.

ams shoot any missiles that enter their range dome, whether locked on to you or not, since lrms can be fired like rockets without lock or set to home on narc beacons or tag laser painters.

ps only nooby mcnoobersons are gonna be missile boats. ams/ammo running out/no mid fight resupply = youll want some lasers on your builds, maybe even a well rounded mech with lrm, srm, lasers and guns.

Edited by LordDeathStrike, 05 April 2012 - 12:20 AM.

[CCC Dober]

I'm all for 'Aegis' Mech variants, specifically because it adds depth to the game (AMS shield for the whole team, how cool is that?) and represents a counter to otherwise unopposed missile boats. The effect may be limited to longrange missiles and team members within a certain radius, which would be rather realistic.

[Elizander]

Capt Cole 117, on 04 April 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

Since ams is now a normal weapon it follows that I could equip 4 or more and stick near my lance mates to protect them.

AMS boat? Awesome. :>

[Strum Wealh]

Wyzak, on 04 April 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

AMS is generally able to target hostile missiles no matter who they are targeting, this has been seen in several of the games now. I imagine the commander role or another module may enhance your ability to Aegis your teammates...


EDIT... But having said that, it makes sense to make AMS very ammo dependent (and have LAMS causing significant amounts of heat buildup) in order to prevent abusing this system to artificially cheapen enemy missile attacks.

Not really...

Quote

Anytime a missile weapon makes a successful to-hit attack against a unit carrying an AMS, and the missile weapon strikes in the attack direction covered by the firing arc where the AMS is mounted, the AMS will automatically engage with the following results...

(Total Warfare, pg. 129)

AMS will only engage if 1.) the missile is actually threatens to hit the AMS-carrying 'Mech (represented by "a successful to-hit attack against a unit carrying an AMS") and 2.) the missile attack comes from the arc covered by the AMS (e.g. an AMS on the right side of the 'Mech won't engage missiles coming in from the left).

If the missiles target a friendly 'Mech near the AMS-carrying 'Mech, with the a successful to-hit missile attack against the friendly 'Mech and no successful to-hit missile attacks against the AMS-carrying 'Mech, then the latter's AMS won't engage since the condition of "a missile weapon makes a successful to-hit attack against a unit carrying an AMS" has not been met.

----------

LordDeathStrike, on 05 April 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

ams are only effective vs mrm and lrm missiles, srms are fired too close to be shot down effectively, at least in normal bt rules.

as per ams mounts, most mechs with ams have 1, a few like atlas master and commander variant have 2 ams, and angel ecm, but give up firepower to carry it.

ams shoot any missiles that enter their range dome, whether locked on to you or not, since lrms can be fired like rockets without lock or set to home on narc beacons or tag laser painters.

ps only nooby mcnoobersons are gonna be missile boats. ams/ammo running out/no mid fight resupply = youll want some lasers on your builds, maybe even a well rounded mech with lrm, srm, lasers and guns.

Source(s)?

As above, Total Warfare indicates that AMS will only engage missiles that actually threaten to hit the 'Mech carrying said AMS.

It also indicates (also on pg. 129):

Quote

If the missile weapon is a Streak launcher, treat the launcher as though the controlling player rolled an 11 on the appropriate column of the Cluster Hits Table, then apply the –4 modifier to determine how many missiles struck the target.

If the missile weapon normally fires only a single missile in a shot (such as a Narc Missile Beacon), roll 1D6: on a result of 1-3 the missile is destroyed, on a result of 4-6 the missile strikes the target.

Also, from the CBT Master Rules (pg. 130-131):

Quote

Special Weapons: The anti-missile system cannot be used against Arrow IV Artillery, Thunder, Flare, or Swarm or Swarm-I missiles, but it can be used against ATMs, Rocket Launchers, Narc pods, MRMs, Flechette, Incendiary, Inferno, Semi-Guided, and Streak missiles.

Also, Mech Mortars don't (canonically) trigger AMS.

I don't see anywhere where it says AMS won't engage SRMs.
Additionally, since MRMs and Rocket Launchers fire projectiles that (unlike standard SRM missiles) are unguided, Streak missiles (against which AMS is explicitly stated to be effective) are predominantly SRMs, and Narc pods (against which AMS is explicitly stated to be effective) canonically have the same range brackets as SRMs (and are thus launched from the same ranges), it stands to reason that AMS will, in fact, engage SRMs.

Your thoughts?

[CCC Dober]

Strum Wealh, on 05 April 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

...
I don't see anywhere where it says AMS won't engage SRMs.
Additionally, since MRMs and Rocket Launchers fire projectiles that (unlike standard SRM missiles) are unguided, Streak missiles (against which AMS is explicitly stated to be effective) are predominantly SRMs, and Narc pods (against which AMS is explicitly stated to be effective) canonically have the same range brackets as SRMs (and are thus launched from the same ranges), it stands to reason that AMS will, in fact, engage SRMs.

Your thoughts?

From an 'aegis' perspective it would be difficult, not to say impossible, to cover team mates from all sorts of incoming missiles. Every type of incoming missile that has an arcing trajectory, like LRMs, could be intercepted without much trouble. Non-arcing SRMs however would require LOS and that can be blocked by almost anything.

From a pure self-defense perspective, SRMs would be viable targets for AMS, although the short distances surely make it difficult for a single AMS system to intercept them in a timely fashion, especially when they are spammed in large numbers. Multiple AMS may be the answer, even more so when they can cover more angles of attack than a single one.

[SnowDragon]

TT rules were that AMS only protected the mech they were equipped with. Cannonically, this was because the AMS system detected a lock on, and tracked the missile by their guidance. At least, from memory. To do otherwise would be silly. What if an enemy catapult is lobbing infernos in your general for no good reason beyond shock. You're gonna waste all that ammo for nothing.