44 replies to this topic

[Squid von Torgar]

As we discussed yesterday, I was wondering if you had any news on the heat dissapation of DHS.
Will it be 0.2 per second or 0.14?

Thanks

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 05 November 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

I don't think they're gonna budge on the .14.

[Joseph Mallan]

Well if they aren't .2 then they will no longer be Double Sinks. So that being said Are we going to have Double sinks tomorrow or +40% Sinks?

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

I don't think they're gonna budge on the .14.

But they never mentioned heat dissipation on the increase in heat threshold (Thats the 1.4 figure) it makes a lot of difference if they keep the 0,2 dissipation.

I asked Bryan about it yesterday and he said he would check with David.

It could end a lot of the flaming if we find out the 0.2 is being kept. (no pun intended)

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 05 November 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[Dagnome]

http://mwomercs.com/...96#entry1347496

I feel like you want a cookie for talking to bryan.

Edited by Dagnome, 05 November 2012 - 07:16 AM.

[Bryan Ekman]

It's locked in for this patch. I've asked Paul to change the description to reflect the change as well. Not sure if it can be ninja'd into tomorrows patch or not.

As promised, I'll get David to write up how it all works again.

[Squid von Torgar]

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It's locked in for this patch. I've asked Paul to change the description to reflect the change as well. Not sure if it can be ninja'd into tomorrows patch or not.

Sorry Bryan, I am not following you, so are you saying its 0.2 or 0.14 for tommorow?

[Kaldor]

Go check the Command Chair forum. Its 1.4.

In others words, not a worthwhile upgrade for anything other than a few mechs.

[Dead3ye]

Will still probably cost 1.5 million just to change to DHS also

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

Go check the Command Chair forum. Its 1.4.

No you arent getting me. HS do two things.

1) They raise your heat threshold (the limit you can reach before shutting down) SHS do this by 1.0 DHS (Before tommorow) raise this by 2.0. The planned reduction is to take this to 1.4

2) They also increase the amount of heat you can dissapate. SHS have the value of 0.1 per second DHS (Before tommorow) have 0.2.

My question is whether the second value will be reduced to 0.14 or stay at 0.2.

Quote

As promised, I'll get David to write up how it all works again.

It would really be appreciated Bryan. It makes a big difference, and saves me from digging out my stopwatch tomorrow to check

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 05 November 2012 - 07:22 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Squid von Torgar, on 05 November 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

No you arent getting me. HS do two things.

1) They raise your heat threshold (the limit you can reach before shutting down) SHS do this by 1.0 DHS (Before tommorow) raise this by 2.0. The planned reduction is to take this to 1.4

2) They also increase the amount of heat you can dissapate. SHS have the value of 0.1 per second DHS (Before tommorow) have 0.2.

My question is whether the second value will be reduced to 0.14 or stay at 0.2.

I'm pretty sure both cap and dissipation values will be 1.4x SHS values. As far as I'm aware they're not coded to be different at the moment.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kaldor, on 05 November 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Go check the Command Chair forum. Its 1.4.

In others words, not a worthwhile upgrade for anything other than a few mechs.

I don't like the change. It is stupid in my opinion. But 1.4 is still better than 1.0. Now is it really worth 1.5 Mil...
...
...
I don't think so but I will have to see.

Brian, Paul this is a mistake. Not game breaking but a mistake all the same.

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

Brian, Paul this is a mistake. Not game breaking but a mistake all the same.

The thing is I can understand that having your Heat threshold doubled before you shut down could be a game breaker. There are builds that under that system can just ignore heat altogether.

However, if DHS (after tomorrow) still provided twice the dissipation rate they are actually useful. I still have to manage my heat (the threshold has only been increased by 40%) but at least I cool twice as fast.

Thats a nice balance.

If the dissipation is also reduced (To 0.14) then yes, it does make a lot of builds pretty useless. (Awesome 9M for example).

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 05 November 2012 - 07:29 AM.

[Khobai]

Changing DHS to 1.4 is nothing but a bandaid that completely ignores the real problem: the fact weapon rate of fire was tripled without decreasing damage and heat in the same ratio.

To keep ratios the same as tabletop, what we should have is this:
-Weapon rate of fire tripled
-Damage reduced by 2/3rds (triple rate of fire means you should do 1/3rd the damage per shot)
-Heat reduced by 2/3rds (so high-heat weapons are still worth using)
-Diminishing returns on boating weapons like lasers/streaks/lrms
OR alternatively:
-Armor & Internals tripled (triple dps means you need triple armor/internals)
-Ammo tripled (triple armor/internals means you need triple ammo)


Instead what we have is this:
-Weapon rate of fire tripled
-Armor but not internals doubled
-Ammo at +60%
-Heat not reduced at all
-No diminishing returns for boating weapons

As a result mechs die way faster than they do in tabletop but also overheat when they shouldnt. And half the weapons in the game arnt even worth using because of heat.

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[Vapor Trail]

I just wish we could get some kind of sense of where you (the devs) were trying to go with this, or what exactly you were preventing.

There are a bunch of highly analytical people on the forums that have tried to reverse engineer the reasoning on the .14 decision, and come up empty. Not just "there might be a reason we're not seeing," empty; but "what in heck are they thinking" empty.

There were people who were looking to DHS to make Large energy weapons truly viable for the first time.
There were people who were lookng to DHS to make their builds easier to manage, and lighter at the same time.
Lets just say 'There was lots of stuff...'

There's literally pages of math to that effect, so I'm not going to reproduce it here.

So basically that's what I'd like to see, the reasoning behind the .14 hps sink change.

Not "change it," not "fix it," just... "why?"

Please?

Edited by Vapor Trail, 05 November 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Squid von Torgar, on 05 November 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

The thing is I can understand that having your Heat threshold doubled before you shut down could be a game breaker. There are builds that under that system can just ignore heat altogether.

However, if DHS (after tomorrow) still provided twice the dissipation rate they are actually useful. I still have to manage my heat (the threshold has only been increased by 40%) but at least I cool twice as fast.

Thats a nice balance.

If the dissipation is also reduced (To 0.14) then yes, it does make a lot of builds pretty useless. (Awesome 9M for example).

I don't think the threshold has changed. DOuble sinks work twice as well, so we cool faster. We still have to reach that same plateau to shut down it's just harder to reach with good sinks! I have the effective heat of 30 sinks (two more than when I used singes) I still over heat when I SPAM fire my 4 Medium lasers, it just takes long cause the sinks vent better.

[Lefty Lucy]

Vapor Trail, on 05 November 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

I just wish we could get some kind of sense of where you (the devs) were trying to go with this, or what exactly you were preventing.

There are a bunch of highly analytical people on the forums that have tried to reverse engineer the reasoning on the .14 decision, and come up empty. Not just "there might be a reason we're not seeing," empty; but "what in heck are they thinking" empty.

There were people who were looking to DHS to make Large energy weapons truly viable for the first time.
There were people who were lookng to DHS to make their builds easier to manage, and lighter at the same time.
Lets just say 'There was lots of stuff...'

There's literally pages of math to that effect, so I'm not going to reproduce it here.

So basically that's what I'd like to see, the reasoning behind the .14 hps sink change.

Not "change it," not "fix it," just... "why?"

Of course even with 2.0 DHS, the heat system creates large mathematical imbalances between Gauss Rifles and all other direct fire weapons. DHS was never going to solve that problem, people just convinced themselves that it might.

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

Changing DHS to 1.4 is nothing but a bandaid that completely ignores the real problem: the fact weapon rate of fire was tripled without lowering damage and heat in the same ratio.

I actually would prefer if ROF was lowered across all weapons. However I think that apart from individual tweaks the overall increase is here to stay.

That said we are talking about what the changes will be tomorrow. I too was disappointed that DHS aren't making it in fully untouched (as the majority is). I also understand that if they were left alone as doubles they could make some builds very OP.

Provided they do what they should (Double cooling rate) I am not too fussed at the reduction in their ability to enable me to generate more heat before shutting down. That actually balances them somewhat and stops people from using them to ignore heat altogether.

[Vapor Trail]

Lefty Lucy, on 05 November 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

Of course even with 2.0 DHS, the heat system creates large mathematical imbalances between Gauss Rifles and all other direct fire weapons. DHS was never going to solve that problem, people just convinced themselves that it might.

Never claimed different. In fact argued strenuously on the other side of that particular little tempest (on the "no it won't fix it" side).

But that's a different (related, yes, but different) thread.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 05 November 2012 - 07:40 AM.

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

I don't think the threshold has changed. DOuble sinks work twice as well, so we cool faster. We still have to reach that same plateau to shut down it's just harder to reach with good sinks! I have the effective heat of 30 sinks (two more than when I used singes) I still over heat when I SPAM fire my 4 Medium lasers, it just takes long cause the sinks vent better.

Not true, read the qoute below from David as to how HS (Both Double and Single) work. They increase the threshold and the cooling rate

Quote

I’d like to expand on some information from an earlier post and provide more details on Standard and Double Heat Sinks.

First, let’s take a look at a Standard Heat Sink. It’s a pretty basic piece of equipment that weighs 1 ton, occupies 1 critical slot. Each Standard Heat Sink equipped on your Mech cools it by 0.1 heat/sec and increases the maximum heat threshold before you shut down by 1.

A Double Heat Sink also weighs 1 ton, but it occupies 3 critical slots. This means that you’re unable to fit them in a Mech’s head, center torso, or legs. The upside is that each one cools your Mech by 0.2 heat/sec and increases your maximum heat capacity by 2.

Hence the question, will the cooling rate stay at 0.2 heat/sec or will it also be nerfed to 0.14 heat/sec

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 05 November 2012 - 07:44 AM.