14 replies to this topic

[Ansel]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

http://mwomercs.com/...or/page__st__20

Edit: new link. More evidence etc etc.
http://mwomercs.com/...tion-instantly/

Nice job not noticing this bug either. Expecialy since it's referenced in the quote from Garth.

The QA team should be taken out back and hit with <insert profferd object> multiple times.

Also just like before when they "missed" the DHS not doubling in the engine they seem to have missed this bug.

Now can we finally get the DHS fixed properly since you have obviously based your 1.4 DHS off of another bug in the game.


Edit: Possible Cause might have been found.

QuantumButler, on 06 November 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Guys guys, I think I figured out the issue with internals.

ANY HIT FROM ANYTHING causes a crit, not a chance to crit, but 100% a crit, to anything[maybe everything at once] inside the section, so side torsos die instantly if you have any ammo in there unless you have lots of heatsink padding, and engines die after 1 or two hits from any weapon [cockpits too]. Which instantly kills you.

Every hit has a 100% chance to crit, every item seems to only have like .04 HP now.

So empty parts or parts that don't contain anything explosive won't be destroyed right away and will take as much damage to kill as normal, but parts where you have anything explosive or an engine will kill you right away.

Edited by Ansel, 06 November 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[FerretGR]

3 seconds, ie 1 alpha? What Atlases are running around being cored from behind by single Jenner alphas anyhow? This situation is ridiculous, and if this is the reason why DHS were implemented incorrectly, well, that's just sad.

[Rogue 6]

The thing they should have addressed is why can the Jenner carry as many weapons ( hardpoints) as the Heavy mech's? Add that in with the fact they have the lag-shield and run around constinly so they only "Alpha" 1-2x then run away so they don't need alot of HS, THIS is why they think 2.0 DHS are too powerful. Lets just forget real 2.0 DHS are pretty much needed to use the larger energy weapons. Instead of fixing the lights being able to carry and use too much firepower, we should just nerf the use of heavy heat/energy weapons.

One would think if they identified that true DHS at 2.0 made Lights too strong they would adress LIGHTS, not just nerf DHS and pretend that was the whole problem.....

[Salient]

I agree, its pretty sad. They need to hire some in house testers, maybe feed some interns some pizza to make their game less of a buggy mess.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Rogue6u, on 06 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

The thing they should have addressed is why can the Jenner carry as many weapons ( hardpoints) as the Heavy mech's? Add that in with the fact they have the lag-shield and run around constinly so they only "Alpha" 1-2x then run away so they don't need alot of HS, THIS is why they think 2.0 DHS are too powerful. Lets just forget real 2.0 DHS are pretty much needed to use the larger energy weapons. Instead of fixing the lights being able to carry and use too much firepower, we should just nerf the use of heavy heat/energy weapons.

One would think if they identified that true DHS at 2.0 made Lights too strong they would adress LIGHTS, not just nerf DHS and pretend that was the whole problem.....

Nothing about this post is accurate.

[Ansel]

Rogue6u, on 06 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

The thing they should have addressed is why can the Jenner carry as many weapons ( hardpoints) as the Heavy mech's? Add that in with the fact they have the lag-shield and run around constinly so they only "Alpha" 1-2x then run away so they don't need alot of HS, THIS is why they think 2.0 DHS are too powerful. Lets just forget real 2.0 DHS are pretty much needed to use the larger energy weapons. Instead of fixing the lights being able to carry and use too much firepower, we should just nerf the use of heavy heat/energy weapons.

One would think if they identified that true DHS at 2.0 made Lights too strong they would adress LIGHTS, not just nerf DHS and pretend that was the whole problem.....

The number of weapons carried ins't as importaint as the ability to frontload damage.

A jenner is already limited by the ammount of weight it can use to carry weapons. Usually no one would ever try to put 2xPPCs on a jenner, for good reason, it's more tonnage than they usually can spare without gimping the mech into a piece of trash.

When they put their patch into place their jenner was suddnly able to "kill and atlas from behind in 3 seconds". That would mean dealing a little over 45 damage, 15 rear armor + the 31 internals. That is not relevent in any case, because a jenner can carry 6xML and still kill an atlas from the rear in 2 shots while useing SHS, it will shut down yes but will still get the kill.

The bug they introduced that is causing mechs that take shots to their internals are dying too quickly now. Instead of trying to find out if it was DHS increaseing damage or another cause they just assumed it was DHS and nerfed DHS.

Thats the problem.

Edit: I cannot spell "patch" apparently LuLz

Edited by Ansel, 06 November 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[Like a Sir]

Ansel, on 06 November 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

The number of weapons carried ins't as importaint as the ability to frontload damage.

A jenner is already limited by the ammount of weight it can use to carry weapons. Usually no one would ever try to put 2xPPCs on a jenner, for good reason, it's more tonnage than they usually can spare without gimping the mech into a piece of trash.

When they put their patch into place their jenner was suddnly able to "kill and atlas from behind in 3 seconds". That would mean dealing a little over 45 damage, 15 rear armor + the 31 internals. That is not relevent in any case, because a jenner can carry 6xML and still kill an atlas from the rear in 2 shots while useing SHS, it will shut down yes but will still get the kill.

The bug they introduced that is causing mechs that take shots to their internals are dying too quickly now. Instead of trying to find out if it was DHS increaseing damage or another cause they just assumed it was DHS and nerfed DHS.

Thats the problem.

Edit: I cannot spell "patch" apparently LuLz

While I have a hard time seeing this happen. I have to admit that a group that missed the double heat sinks missing from the engine, missiles showing zero damage, and internals getting blown up in one hit. Is capable of anything!!!

Finish the sentence, MWO: so easy . ....... ..... .. ..

Also in b4 lock

[Vassago Rain]

Just fix this. You have absolutely no idea what you're doing, and your team is incompetent. It took me less than 30 minutes to document all that was wrong with kong.

I don't care how fast your terrible PR person can 'core' a fatlas. Give me dubs, and restore internal HP. I don't want to hear how the 'internal testers' know better. They don't know anything, and are likely just Garth 'coring' fatlases from behind all day long.

[Shredhead]

Vassago Rain, on 06 November 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Just fix this. You have absolutely no idea what you're doing, and your team is incompetent. It took me less than 30 minutes to document all that was wrong with kong.

I don't care how fast your terrible PR person can 'core' a fatlas. Give me dubs, and restore internal HP. I don't want to hear how the 'internal testers' know better. They don't know anything, and are likely just Garth 'coring' fatlases from behind all day long.

^^This. So very much. Just fire this incompetent "QA" team of yours, the amount of fail is unbearable now!

[SluGGG]

Shredhead, on 06 November 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

^^This. So very much. Just fire this incompetent &quot;QA&quot; team of yours, the amount of fail is unbearable now!

The whole company is incompetent, if they weren't it wouldn't have been consistently like it has.

[wanderer]

SluGGG, on 06 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

The whole company is incompetent, if they weren't it wouldn't have been consistently like it has.

Eh. I view their QA as being the people who get it to alpha-build level. We're the ones that grind off the rough spots and actually can find the hidden flaws in the build.

It's like it is in all big multiplayer games- the real stat experts are players and fans, and the more we know, the faster the refinement process goes.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rogue6u, on 06 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

The thing they should have addressed is why can the Jenner carry as many weapons ( hardpoints) as the Heavy mech's? Add that in with the fact they have the lag-shield and run around constinly so they only "Alpha" 1-2x then run away so they don't need alot of HS, THIS is why they think 2.0 DHS are too powerful. Lets just forget real 2.0 DHS are pretty much needed to use the larger energy weapons. Instead of fixing the lights being able to carry and use too much firepower, we should just nerf the use of heavy heat/energy weapons.

One would think if they identified that true DHS at 2.0 made Lights too strong they would adress LIGHTS, not just nerf DHS and pretend that was the whole problem.....

They can't carry as heavy of weapons as larger Mechs can sir. My Atlas can carry 4 Medium lasers, 2 missile racks (usually 20s) and or an AC/Gauss. My weapons weigh as much as a Jenner!

[IceSerpent]

wanderer, on 07 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Eh. I view their QA as being the people who get it to alpha-build level. We're the ones that grind off the rough spots and actually can find the hidden flaws in the build.

Except that we are not talking about hidden flaws. DHS bug was not hidden - any internal testing at all would have brought it out (fire 1 laser, check the heat dissipation). LRM trajectory was not hidden - fire one salvo, see the flight path. Internal damage bug was not hidden - Garth said it himself that his Jenner could core an Atlas in roughly 3s, that's a dead giveaway that something got messed up with damage. Weapon convergence issue is just broken design and has been brought up repeatedly since the start of CBT. Same for numerous issues with mechlab - it's just a database frontend for crying out loud.

Pretty much all major issues in MWO are easy to spot with minimal testing and most are also easy to fix. To be honest, at this stage I'd expect everything to be ironed out, except for netcode issues and proper matchmaker (those two are tricky from a developer's point of view).

[MustrumRidcully]

IceSerpent, on 07 November 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Except that we are not talking about hidden flaws. DHS bug was not hidden - any internal testing at all would have brought it out (fire 1 laser, check the heat dissipation). LRM trajectory was not hidden - fire one salvo, see the flight path. Internal damage bug was not hidden - Garth said it himself that his Jenner could core an Atlas in roughly 3s, that's a dead giveaway that something got messed up with damage. Weapon convergence issue is just broken design and has been brought up repeatedly since the start of CBT. Same for numerous issues with mechlab - it's just a database frontend for crying out loud.

Pretty much all major issues in MWO are easy to spot with minimal testing

I agree with this.

Quote

and most are also easy to fix.

But not necessarily this. You really can never know how complicated a particular software system is in one area without having seen it yourself. Some major changes can be trivial, some minor seeming may require a complete overhaul of their entire data model.

[IceSerpent]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 November 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

But not necessarily this. You really can never know how complicated a particular software system is in one area without having seen it yourself. Some major changes can be trivial, some minor seeming may require a complete overhaul of their entire data model.

Actually you can:

DHS dissipation value is just a number somewhere, you can change it in seconds.

Missile spread at a given distance is also a number or set of numbers (depends on how exactly they implemented the math), can be tweaked in a few minutes.

For internal damage it will only take time to trace where exactly it got broken, given that they have an older build at hand where it's not broken, the actual fix should also take minutes after the exact cause is pinpointed.

Weapon convergence simply needs a way to control the convergence point and an indication of where the current convergence point is. Just for example, it can be done like this (mind you, that's just one of a myraid of possible solutions). Granted, it takes time to redesign, but we've been complaining about it literally since the start of CBT and it is one of the core systems - it should have been given some priority at least.

Weapon balance (damage / heat / RoF) - again, it's just numbers, can be tweaked in seconds.

Mechlab - needs a complete redesign, but it's basically a shopping cart / database frontend. In other words, everybody knows how it's supposed to work. User plays with the input as much as they want, when they hit "submit" button, a single database transaction happens.

One issue I forgot to mention is collisions, but that goes into "tricky" category.